Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 05:47 AM

New Britain
April 16, 2024, 12:05 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

What's happened to the fo...
April 11, 2024, 01:00 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM

Gaza assault
January 27, 2024, 01:08 PM

Nawal El Saadawi: Egypt's...
January 27, 2024, 12:24 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus

 (Read 17270 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #30 - August 07, 2014, 07:36 PM

    Has anyone noticed how much of a massive failure the Islamic version of Jesus would have been? To have come preaching pure monotheism and being the precursor to Muhammad only to be crucified(or appear to be) and have the majority of Christians by the 2nd century revering you as a divine being and your death as an atoning sacrifice? And to top it all off, these debates rage on and on and a shit ton of people are killed over petty theological differences, and finally 600 years later you reveal the truth to some peasant hearing voices in a cave. Wow.

    That's the reason why I can't understand Christians who respect Islam and Muslims. I can understand them tolerating it, but to respect it? They clearly don't know the ins and outs of Islam.

    From an Xian point of view god/the son of god was crucified to redeem all of mankind. If this is the case, then what need was there of another prophet in the arse end of the world 600+ years later?
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #31 - August 07, 2014, 07:45 PM

    I think the NT is clearly a Greek document, none of it actually written anywhere near the middle east.

    I like the idea that its key inspiration was actually written in Latin by someone very famous!

    http://www.nazarenus.com

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #32 - August 07, 2014, 08:00 PM

    The two religions are fundamentally incompatible. Both religions offer a historical portrait of Jesus that is ultimately untenable. Islam has its bland, failure of a prophet Jesus, while Christianity holds Jesus to a much a higher regard than he probably ever gave to himself.

    It seems a familiar motif to claim the founders of other religions as precursors of your own. In fact, I've heard many Eastern religions claim Jesus was someone who had attained enlightenment or held a spark of the divine

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #33 - August 07, 2014, 08:46 PM

    By the way, as to Mary, I'd say two things.  First many other Christians still claim that Catholics worship Mary, and that Catholic claims that they just 'venerate and pray to her' are just semantics.  Here's a straighforward example:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/worship-saints-Mary.html

    I really believe the Qur'anic discussion represents a similar type of rhetoric against worshipping intermediaries = polytheism = associating, which was just as common back then amongst monotheists as it is nowadays.

    The second thing is that the Qur'an's reference to Mary being worshipped again isn't stated as some formal doctrine of the trinity, it's just that Jesus is saying he never told anybody to treat him and his mother as divine like Allah.  Here's the only such reference in the Qur'an:

    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=116#%285:116:1%29

    The Qur'an is less saying "Christians believe in a trinity composed of x, y, z" and more just having Jesus saying "wtf, I never told them I was divine or they should worship my mom."  As Mourad's article says, it is less concerned with factual/doctrinal detail and more concerned with theological polemic.  The Qur'an has little concern for fairness or accuracy; it is all about making theological points, and its author(s) pull out every trick in the book to do that.




    You are confusing Catholic views with the divinity concept of the Eastern Churches. It is the Eastern doctrine which Islam would encounter not the Western Church. Also your linked article is obviously written by a Protestant with a clear bias. So again the Quran could be addressing the Eastern doctrine, it certainly is not addressing Western concepts. Catholic doctrine regarding Mary didn't formalize until the Second Council of Nicaea, long after the Quran was made. Immaculate Conception was not doctrine until the 1900th century.  Nestorianism doctrine is embraced by Islam. Orthodox is opposed by Islam. Western forms would be a minority in the east thus irreverent to average Christian in the area.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #34 - August 07, 2014, 09:28 PM

    I think it's more complex than that.  "Hellenic" Christianity, in the form of the Nicene Creed, penetrated Syria relatively early and became orthodox.  Nestorian Christianity is avowedly trinitarian -- Nestorius developed his doctrines as a professed attempt to explain the trinity -- so Nestorianism is certainly not embraced by Islam, though it contains *resistance* to the evolving Hellenic othodoxy, in its unique Christological doctrines.

    Syriac Christianity and theology, which is what almost all modern scholars believe is most closely reflected in the Qur'an, was already heavily Hellenic by the time the Qur'an was written.  By Hellenic, I mean it had largely accepted Greek theological doctrines and *rejected* Jewish Christian doctrines.  I do think it's true that Islam in large part reflects the continued existence of Eastern Christianity outside of Hellenic doctrines ... my point is that Islam is largely itself an EXAMPLE of such non-trinitarian Christianity, which is attacking the trinitarian Nicene orthodoxy exemplifed by *both* the Western and Eastern Syriac churches.

    Immaculate conception was not formal Catholic doctrine until very late, but it was the prevailing *Christian* doctrine since late antiquity, both in the West and the East.  This is why the Protestants made rejection of the doctrine such a big issue.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

    "A feast of the Conception of the Most Holy and All Pure Mother of God was celebrated in Syria on 8 December perhaps as early as the 5th century. Note that the title of achrantos (spotless, immaculate, all-pure) refers to the holiness of Mary, not specifically to the holiness of her conception.[13]
    An 11th-century Eastern Orthodox icon of the Theotokos Panachranta, i.e. the "all immaculate" Mary[14]

    By the 7th century the feast of her conception was widely celebrated in the East, under the name of the Conception (active) of Saint Anne."

    It is true that Christians in Syria did not claim to *worship* Mary, but it is easy to see why a monotheist standing outside the Hellenic orthodoxy would claim that they did, and why this Mary worship was a perversion of Jesus's message (just as Christians would attack the Muslims for worshiping a black pagan stone).  These were bitter controversies at the time, and very important to people in the Syrio-Arabian sphere; they were not just later Catholic artifacts.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #35 - October 01, 2014, 08:25 PM

    I want to revive this thread because I've been taking a class on the history of Christianity. With all the different "heretical" doctrines that come in the centuries after the Jesus, none really seem to match up to Islam. So could Islam just have been a combination of a few different Christian doctrines? Or were the early "believers" a group of Jewish Christians left untouched by Hellenic/Nicene Christianity?

    In the sources we have today for the history of Christianity in the first few centuries, it seemed that after the first and maybe early 2nd centuries, Jewish-Christians were hardly ever mentioned if they still existed at all.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #36 - October 01, 2014, 09:26 PM

    I've done a lot of thinking about this recently, particularly in conjunction with reading Ehrman's "How Jesus Became God" (HIGHLY recommended btw, the parallels between the development of early Christianity and early Islam are quite incredible).  Currently have one more chapter left to read.

    My current belief is that the issue is wrongly stated, and the Qur'an's view is wrongly analyzed.  When it comes to Christology, the Qur'an is usually understood as being extremely dogmatic.  But that is WRONG.  The Qur'an is actually remarkably vague about Jesus and his life; the Qur'an continually asks its listeners to disregard specifics and focus on the broadest possible theological issues.  This is why the Qur'an repeatedly references broad controversies within Christianity, and then asks you to disregard them as unimportant, saying that nobody knows.  For example, the Seven Sleepers story, the Qur'an goes out of its way to say that nobody knows the numbers of years of the sleep, but that's not the point.  For the crucifixion of Jesus, the Qur'an goes out of its way to say that nobody knows for sure what happened, but that is not the point.  The Qur'an does not take an overly coherent stance on Jesus and his miracles, and barely talks about what he taught.  It's almost embarrassed by its author's lack of certainty in these areas.  What the Qur'an DOES make clear is that it is wrong to 'associate' Jesus with Allah -- that is the one clear certainty of its Christian theology.

    As Ehrman's book demonstrates, there were intense controversies within early Christianity about what, exactly, it meant for Jesus to be divine, and this was understood in a dizzying variety of different ways.  Syria in particular was obviously a battleground within the Christian church on the nature of Christ's divinity.

    I think that what the Qur'an represents is a cautious general position within the continuing debate within a monotheistic milieu on this point, in a climate where the Nicene creed had not been universally accepted.  In that climate, the Qur'anic authors knew about the complex battles raging about Christology; they were probably well aware of the historical conflicting positions that people had taken about Jesus (including docetism).  Rather than take a specific stand on such fights, they essentially rejected the whole thing as theological speculation about an uncertain subject.  But what was clear to them is that the attempts to lift Jesus up to the same level as God the father, presented in the context of furious orthodox debate, were not acceptable.

    That is the one point on which the Qur'an's view of Jesus is clear -- he was not equal to God the father, he was not a god (though he does seem to be quasi-divine after his resurrection, akin to what Ehrman calls an 'exaltation Christology,' where Jesus became divine like Moses did via being instantly taken up by God to heaven rather than dying a normal death).  What, specifically, that meant was not worked out.  The rest is unclear, and the Qur'an wants to take pains to avoid taking any specific stance on it.

    So I think it's wrong to see the Qur'an as expressing a very specific line of historical Christian doctrine.  Rather it's sort of the reaction of a simplified monotheistic milieu, highly vernacular with its only formalized texts in a language foreign to most of the population (Syriac), to the continuing encroachment of ferocious Hellenic doctrinal battles over Christology played out largely in Syria -- the Qur'an's authors are aware of these epic battles, and do not want to get sucked up into them.

    So the question is really what that milieu was like, and I think the answer is that it was probably Arab speaking populations in Syria and Palestine, which had LOOONGG been suffused with Judaism, and which had probably been filled with many nominal Christians for centuries -- but not integrated into the formal orthodox churches or subject to Hellenic doctrinal discipline.  Calling this peripheral Christianity "Jewish Christian" would be somewhat of a misnomer if it implies clear continuity with Ebionites etc.  The Qur'an did not come from a secret ancient sect, in other words, that continued onward.  Instead I would call it "Semitic Vernacular Christian," in the sense that it was relatively isolated from the Greek speaking churches, and got much of its language, texts, stories, and theology through Syriac/Palestinian Aramaic sources, in debate with Jews.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #37 - October 01, 2014, 09:33 PM

    I think Islam absorbed many different Gnostic and Oriental views. Jesus talking and performing miracles in the womb is paraphrased from a Gnostic Gospel. Someone else being crucified in his place is from another Gnostic Gospel. There are very few Gnostic and Oriental Gospels so I do not think one group can be identified as the sole source. Rather many of the "heretics" were present, or had been, in border areas of the Byzantium/Roman Empire. Jewish-Christians were mentioned in the Gnostic Gospels more than Western Christianity. Many could have been swept up in the Jewish revolts since to an outsider they would of been seen as Jews since they still followed Judaism rather than Paul's Gentile Christianity. The Syriac Churches are linked with Jewish-Christians. However I think over time these groups were absorbed into Hellenistic Christianity or Oriental Churches.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #38 - October 01, 2014, 09:56 PM

    I previewed Ehrman's new book and only really got to read the chapter where he describes Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet. It is definitely on my reading list though.

    As for your evaluation of the context in which the Quran appeared, it does seem to make a lot of sense that this was probably some sort of Monotheistic Christian movement unaffected by Hellenic theology. Do you think that the earliest community of "believers" really was quite familiar with western theology or were they vaguely aware of it and just wanted nothing to do with it? What you consider polemical tone in the Quran could merely be misunderstanding of key Orthodox Christian doctrines.

    Also, you agree that clearly the Quran portrays a Jesus that is not equal to God, but does it definitely portray Jesus as just a human or could it perhaps leave it open to interpretation where you could fit Nestorian or Arianism Christology into it (where Jesus was greater than a human, perhaps even divine, but not equal with the Father)? Just curious if any passages could be interpreted to imply that Jesus was more than just a human such as the one calling Jesus a "word of God."

    Lastly, you say that the those to whom the Quran is addressed seem to be familiar with a Syriac or Aramaic set of scriptures. Does the Diatesseron espouse a view of Jesus similar to any of the later Christian doctrines being debated during the centuries of Christianity's rise to power? And also is the Diatesseron that is available online and in other resources probably the same as it would have been in the Syrio-Aramaic readings available to the earliest communities of "believers?" Thanks!

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #39 - October 01, 2014, 10:03 PM

    @Bogart

    All that seems plausible. The interesting thing is that perhaps the Gnostic beliefs such as Jesus not being crucified and having someone else take his place were possibly not how those verses of the Quran were originally interpreted but rather the gnostic interpretations of these verses were retro-fitted on to them by later exegetes struggling to understand these verses and aware of Gnostic belief

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #40 - October 01, 2014, 10:35 PM

    My belief is that the Qur'an's authors had certainly heard of the variety of theological disputes about Christology, but didn't know quite what to make of them -- they didn't feel confident about weighing in, and thought the ferocity and manifest complexity of the Christological disagreements was ridiculous (as we generally do today!).  For example, the Qur'an refers explicitly to some forms of trinitarian theology (blasting those who say Allah is the 'third of Three', and rips on 'Nazarenes' for constantly disagreeing with each other).  The Qur'an has a schizophrenic view on the Injil, it considers it Holy Scripture, but asserts it has been corrupted in some completely unspecified way.  The Qur'an appears reluctant to take a clear position on what the Injil actually is, in terms of specific texts.  The closest I can get to describing it is that one gets the impression of somebody who is roughly familiar with a very complicated debate, and wants to state an opinion, but also doesn't want to appear ignorant about basic facts and issues.  So instead you only refer to it in generalities, and disclaim the importance of specific issues, while asserting that 'corruption' must explain any divergence between the texts and the points you are now making.

    Similarly, the Qur'an is CLEARLY familiar with disputes over what happened at the crucifixion, because setting aside the docetism issue, it specifically says:  "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."  Surah 4:157.

    This is classic Qur'an, making a general point on some issue (here arguing that Jews did not *really* kill Jesus, right after blaming the Jews for killing their prophets no less), while saying that of the specifics, it is totally unclear, people disagree about what happened, they are just making assumptions -- the only thing we know for sure is that he was not killed.  The Qur'an could not have made these arguments except in a context where there were ongoing disputes on this point, and the Qur'an's authors were not sure who was right.  I would suggest this represents both close contact with, and profound confusion about, complex Christian debates about Christology.

    I believe the Qur'an leaves unresolved the question of whether Jesus was essentially angelic in nature, either by incarnation or exaltation.  That is the sense in which the Qur'an might agree that he is divine, but only in the sense of an angel, NOT a god.  This is the same sense, interestingly, in which Jews viewed the "Son of Man" who was to come and initiate God's reign over the world, probably what Jesus thought about himself (God would appoint him as Messiah), and probably what Mohammed consciously emulated for himself (he would be the divine kalifat, a third Adam, the final Jesus ...etc. -- not equal to God but rather God's representative, his messenger (and what, btw, is the Semitic word for messenger?  "Malak," angel).  So in some sense a prophet must be angel-like or an angel, since an angel by semantic definition is the messenger of God, and who else is the messenger of God?  Mohammed, the rasul.

    The more you read about early Christianity and early Islam, the more you are struck by their profound similarities as evolving religious communities.  In many respects, I actually find myself agreeing with Mohammed that his historical message was essentially the same message as the historical Jesus (last day, imminent judgment, bodily resurrection, centered on Jerusalem, with God's representative (Jesus/Mohammed) as the presiding judge)!  That's what the Qur'an explicitly says over and over again.  Yet, and you have probably heard my lament, people inexplicably disregard what the Qur'an says, because they are so heavily influenced by the later historical traditions that were imposed against the early religious movements.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #41 - October 02, 2014, 01:16 AM

    Hey guys! I recently finished the book Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman, which was an excellent read.  .......

    Indeed that is a wonderful to book to read..   Dr, Bart Ehrman, is a great guy.,  please down load that 300 of pages of book and read it

    Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew

    He is also a great debater watch this with that LAME CAT,,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fs2enV3Tg4

    watch the Lame Cat making  noise on Dr, Bart Ehrman  And those who like to remove the batteries from Christian robots and Christiano toys so that they stop making noise .. you must read and watch Dr, Bart Ehrman


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #42 - October 02, 2014, 01:43 AM

    Indeed. Bart is a badass  Afro

    @Zaotar

    Reading through your older posts on this thread, you claim that certain verses contain interpolations specifically referring to the use of "Muhammad" as a proper name. Is there any manuscript evidence of such a change? If not what evidence are you relying on?

    I think our discussion of the Christian Legend of Alexander provides decent evidence that their have been additions to the Quran since the time of Muhammad. That or Muhammad lived longer than the sources make it seem.

    Sorry to keep asking questions. I would really like to read all the pertinent literature and I may get to it eventually, but as a college student I am limited by time.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #43 - October 02, 2014, 01:45 AM

    Very interesting Yeezevee, Thank you!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #44 - October 02, 2014, 05:06 PM

    Indeed. Bart is a badass  Afro

    @Zaotar

    Reading through your older posts on this thread, you claim that certain verses contain interpolations specifically referring to the use of "Muhammad" as a proper name. Is there any manuscript evidence of such a change? If not what evidence are you relying on?

    I think our discussion of the Christian Legend of Alexander provides decent evidence that their have been additions to the Quran since the time of Muhammad. That or Muhammad lived longer than the sources make it seem.

    Sorry to keep asking questions. I would really like to read all the pertinent literature and I may get to it eventually, but as a college student I am limited by time.


    Short answer, I think the only verse that looks like a clear later interpolation is 33:40.  The reasons for believing it is a later interpolation are too complex to outline here, but are set forth by David Powers in his wonderful book "Muhammad is not the Father of any of your Men" (that title of course being a quote from part of 33:40).  Briefly though, 33:40 is the only aya where Muhammad seems to clearly be used as a proper name, as opposed to an epithet meaning 'praiseworthy' or 'chosen', and that is in the context of a bizarre proclamation of Muhammad not having any children and being the final seal of the prophets.  For a variety of reasons, this appears to be a late imposition that accompanied late revisions of the Qur'anic text to establish Muhammad's prophetic authority through his succession to the prophetic line of David (btw, only two individuals are called "Khalifa" in the Qur'an -- care to have a guess who they are?).

    The 3 other uses of "Muhammad" in the Qur'an appear to be as descriptive epithets of the messenger, i.e. he is the 'praised one' or 'chosen 'one.'  Gabriel Said Reynolds has a good discussion of these issues in his phenomenal book "The Qur'an and its Biblical Subtext."

    Incidentally, you mention Alexander, and he is a perfect example of the Qur'an's remarkable love of using epithets rather than proper names -- of course the Qur'an never says the name Alexander, and you could never know what Alexander's name actually was by reading the Qur'an!

    Reynolds cites other examples of epithets or adjectival descriptions in the Qur'an being later mistaken as proper names.  This phenomenon is absolutely rampant in the Qur'an. 
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #45 - October 02, 2014, 07:40 PM

    As many of you seems to read dr. Bart Ehrman., Let me put some links here on Islam and Dr. Bart Ehrman..  The subject  is relevant here..  Many of these well educated Muslim fools think that Bart Ehrman is a good candidate to become a Muslim as he criticizes Christianity  
    Quote
    turntoislam.com

    ......I guess I'm posting this here hoping that Dr. Bart Ehrman (to whom I hold high respect) would stumble upon it and perhaps answer it.....  In the light of this surah, Dr. Ehrman's statement (I highlighted the identical statements in red) is very much parallel to the following statement. Dr. Bart Ehrman might as well have said:

    "I think if there is a God, He is the God of Islam; Allah"

    I pray that Allah guides Dr. Bart Ehrman to Islam; although I do have my own theory as to why in Allah's wisdom, He is not opening Dr. Ehrman's heart to Islam... And this; may be another different thread.  


     Is Prof Bart Ehrman a closet Muslim?    

    selective cut and paste of Bart Ehrman's words and videos by an intellectual Muslim guy to make  Bart Ehrman A Momin..

    So there are plenty of such links by Muslims folks who support   Bart Ehrman's work and often they think he is a closet Muslim guy..  For all of them I say watch what Bart Ehrman says on Islam..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRUSaKDMKJg

    these fools doesn't seem to realize the fact he is criticizing bible and its stories  means  he is criticizing Islam.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #46 - October 02, 2014, 08:03 PM

    We are having some superb discussions here!  I think there is something publishable here that could have huge effects on understanding Islam and its context.

    I haven't a clue how to achieve this but it needs to be done, a summary of key positions and thinking.

    Back to the OP, Tom Holland Shadow of the Sword argues similarly and I think Cron's Hagarism is very important in establishing where this happened - not in the middle of a desert but in and around Samaria.

    I think there is a need to find a military leader or leaders - like Gheghis Khan.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #47 - October 02, 2014, 08:07 PM

    Thanks once again Zaotar! I went looking through your posts and I am really beginning to understand your views on the Quran's compilation and later muslim tradition. Exciting stuff! You seem to be quite up to date in the field, while not holding fringe views.

    @yeezevee

    I have heard that said too about Bart Ehrman. The Muslims parade him around as some sort of hero without understanding his views. What took him away from Christianity was the problem of evil which Islam handles possibly even worse than Christianity.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #48 - October 02, 2014, 08:13 PM

    I can't believe scholars have been so uncritical about the Quran actually relying primarily on oral tradition and being the product of one person, what with its contradictions and silly abrogation system used to explain them away. Also, to think that Muhammad was merely surrounded by pagans ignorant of the Abrahamic faiths seems ridiculous seeing the vague ways the Quran explains early stories, presupposing knowledge of them in his audience.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #49 - October 02, 2014, 08:24 PM

     
    @yeezevee

    I have heard that said too about Bart Ehrman. The Muslims parade him around as some sort of hero without understanding his views. What took him away from Christianity was the problem of evil which Islam handles possibly even worse than Christianity.

    Well justperusing .,  that is possible and that may be   true before he became a faculty member   and became serious scholar for searching Historical Christ and his relationship with the present NT bible ...

    But let  me add this interesting book that  Zaotar mentions in his post...
    Quote
    ...........I think the only verse that looks like a clear later interpolation is 33:40.  The reasons for believing it is a later interpolation are too complex to outline here, but are set forth by David Powers in his wonderful book "Muhammad is not the Father of any of your Men" (that title of course being a quote from part of 33:40).  Briefly though, 33:40 is the only aya where Muhammad seems to clearly be used as a proper name....

    that appears to be an interesting book to read w.r.t that silly verse 33.40  which allegedly reveled in Madina..

    Quote
    033.040
    YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

    PICKTHAL: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

    SHAKIR: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

    I didn't know that some one wrote whole book on that STUPID VERSE  ..Lol..  imagine writing a book on every silly  verse of Quran..


    so let me add some links/reviews  of PDF files of that book/work..

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #50 - October 02, 2014, 08:38 PM

    Verse 33.40  ...Verse 33.40.....Verse 33.40   My goodness gracious... but that is an interesting verse to explore in detail specially w.r.t Islamic intellectuals


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H-uCXft-TU

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Quote
    http://quranx.com/tafsir/Jalal/33.40

    Tafsir Al-Jalalayn  Verse 33.40

    Muhammad is not the father of any man among you: he is not Zayd’s biological father and so it is not unlawful for him to marry his [former] wife Zaynab [after him]; but, he is, the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets, and so he will not have a son that is a [fully grown] man to be a prophet after him (a variant reading [for khātim al-nabiyyīna] has khātam al-nabiyyīn, as in the instrument [known as a] ‘seal’, in other words, their [prophethood] has been sealed by him). And God has knowledge of all things, among these is the fact that there will be no prophet after him, and even when the lord Jesus descends [at the end of days] he will rule according to his [Muhammad’s] Law.

    Quote
    http://quranx.com/Tafsir/Asrar/33.40  

    Tafsir Kashf Al-Asrar  Verse 33.40     No commentary for this verse

      well let me see what Tafsir I get on that verse from Islamic preachers and Islamic intellectuals..


    Quote
      http://mquran.org/content/view/3573/4/

    33.40. (O believers, know that) Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets. God has full knowledge of everything.    Print    E-mail

    مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيماً

    40. (O believers, know that) Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets.20 God has full knowledge of everything.

    Quote
    20. The verse implies that those of superior rank and responsibility feel a fatherly affection toward those who work under them. If they are spiritual leaders, Prophets, or saints, for example, their compassion and affection will far exceed that of a father. As the people will see them as a father, they may consider it improper for such people to marry one of their women. To remove this illusion, the Qur'ān tells us that: "Divine Mercy causes the Prophet to have great affection for you. Due to his position as your leader, you are like his children. But as he is not your biological father, he can marry one of your women. His calling you 'my sons' does not mean you are legally his sons."

    The verse also contains an implicit prediction, which, of course, proved to be true. It is that God's Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, would not have a male child to survive and succeed him. He would be succeeded by a female child, and his progeny would continue through her. As known, the Messenger's line continued through Fātimah, his beloved daughter, who alone survived him from among his children.



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #51 - October 02, 2014, 08:59 PM

    Yep those reviews are good reads too.  I must say that I entirely disagree with Madelung, who is far too credulous of Muslim tradition, and who takes for granted that the Qur'an cannot possibly have been subjected to later interpolations because ... of some unstated reason.  Here's Madelung's claim:

    "Muhammad, according to Powers, considered Zayd b. Haritha, his adopted son, as his legitimate successor. The Prophet’s Companions, however, prevented the legitimate hereditary succession of Zayd (or, if he was dead, of Zayd’s son Usama), and later Muslims claimed that the Qur’an had revoked the legality of Zayd’s adoption. Powers’ argument is hardly sustainable since the verses abolishing adoption, verses 4 - 6, would also have to be considered a late addition to the Qur’an."

    My God, who could imagine such a thing!  What one wants is an explanation of *why* these are not late additions, not an assumption that they are *not* late additions, since David Powers makes a compelling case that they *are* late additions.  Simply pounding your fist and saying no, no, no, as Madelung does, is not much of an argument.

    Actually it is undeniable that Surah 4 has late additions, and even *Muslim tradition itself holds this*.  What do I mean?  Surah 4:176, the last aya, is an incredibly crude interpolation that could not possibly have been written at the same time as its preceding ayas.  It has no relation to them, and is crudely jammed in at the end -- go read it yourself.  Muslim tradition recognized this by, in at least one hadith, holding that 4:176 was *the very last revealed aya.*  And this was simply the Muslim way of trying to explain away its awkward and interpolated nature.

    Here are the traditional hadith accounts -- note that they explicitly hold that Surah 4 was the last revealed surah, and 4:176 the very last revelation to Mohammed.  This was the Muslim way of dealing with the fact that they were still being interpolated at a very late date, and that the interpolations were relatively crude (as with the two kalala ayas).

    http://islamqa.info/en/21916

    So Madelung's argument that these verses in Surah 4 regarding adoption/Zayd/Mohammed's sonlessness cannot be later interpolations is, in my view, pathetically weak dogma, and presents no argument against Powers' detailed technical analysis.

    Further quoting Madelung:

    "The delegitimisation of adoption was part of the general legislation of the Qur’an, much of which was promulgated a year earlier and collected in Sura 4 al-Nisa’. A basic aim of this early Medinan legislation was to foster cohesion and mutual material support in the Muslim community, to aid orphans and the poor and to provide appropriately for women.  Such social justice and material welfare was primarily to be achieved by the existing traditional kinship groups based on blood relationship, who were responsible for the well - being of their members."

    Rank nonsense.  Far from 'early Medinan legislation,' the traditional Muslim accounts correctly perceived that these ayas emerged *extremely late relative to the rest of the Qur'an*.  Far from being directed at 'social reform,' this was theological argument regarding Mohammed's PROPHETIC STATUS which is exactly why the 33:40 verse is ENTIRELY ABOUT prophetic status -- "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."  Shoemaker makes a mockery of these 'social reform' arguments in his book.  To re-interpret these Surah 4 hijinks as a social justice reform is hilariously ridiculous, and illustrates the catastrophic failure of traditional Western scholarship to approach Islamic history in a critical and objective fashion.

    Fortunately that has FINALLY changed, and the new generation of scholars is finally bringing critical discipline and integrity to Qur'anic studies, integrating it within the larger world of academic scholarship.

    I really think that if you compare Madelung and Powers you will get a dramatic illustration of the gulf between (1) the uncritical traditional Orientalist scholars and (2) the modern critical scholars that have taken over the field during the last decade.  Incidentally, Madelung is 84 years old.  He is the embodiment of classic Orientalism.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #52 - October 02, 2014, 09:22 PM

    Is the term orientalism used in two opposite ways?  One an uncritical acceptance, the other, after Said, a form of colonialism?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #53 - October 02, 2014, 09:30 PM

    well going back to Verse 33.40   and the linl in this post  
      that site actually affiliated to my good friend   Edip Yuksel  And such well educated people defend Quran with this nonsense

    Look at this writing
    Quote
    The verse implies that those of superior rank and responsibility feel a fatherly affection toward those who work under them. If they are spiritual leaders, Prophets, or saints, for example, their compassion and affection will far exceed that of a father. As the people will see them as a father, they may consider it improper for such people to marry one of their women.

    Off course it is improper Dammit

    How pathetic that sounds .. And apparently  this affair of Zaynab bint Jahsh,  wife of alleged Muhammad's adopted son    led to this nonsense verse ..033.037

    Quote
    033.036:  And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

    033.037 : And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.


    what allah, what god what Quran and what nonsense is that??   our allah god conveniently reveals the verse in support pf  Muhammad stupid sexual adventures, innuendos  and harem..  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqEFemKJYVU


    Rubbish.. absolute Rubbish mock them and move on.. and watch the tubes on that stupid story and  its similarity with modern Cults

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #54 - October 02, 2014, 09:58 PM

    Is the term orientalism used in two opposite ways?  One an uncritical acceptance, the other, after Said, a form of colonialism?


    Good question.  I use it in an ironic sense that I borrowed from Chase Robinson's awesome essay on Patricia Crone, turning Said's use on its head.

    http://chaserobinson.net/files/2013/09/Crone-and-the-end-of-Orientalism.pdf

    The Orientalist approach to Islam was as follows:

    "The scholarly somnolence that I have described belongs to a very different time, one that is difficult to conjure now.  When H.A.R. Gibb (one of Lewis’s teachers) told R. Irwin that he was still learning Arabic 40 years after starting it, he was recycling a monotheist stereotype of ‘multitude and prediction’ and, much more significantly, monitoring an academic frontier. For joining the Orientalist guild required paying a toll — not merely endless years of language study, but the acculturation of broader disciplinary norms. Chief amongst these was the framing expectation, which was itself based on intellectual and cultural pre-commitments about the nature of philology, literature and society, that the project of reconstructing Islam was essentially transcriptional — about setting an Islamic score to western instrumentation, one might say. Because the sources were held to constitute a reasonable, coherent, and (not coincidentally, largely Sunni) consensus, the scholarly project was by definition conservative; the framework created by those sources being fundamentally sound, this boiled down to introducing new details, texts and figures, and qualifying and adjusting subordinate interpretations. All this goes some way towards explaining why so much of the most path-breaking work in the post-War period was disproportionately produced not by members of the European Orientalist establishment (there was no American one to speak of), but by those who worked either on its margins or entirely outside of it. The body of evidence was not necessarily changing, but because they were drawing upon fresh ideas and approaches, historical materialists (Annaliste, Marxist or otherwise, such as C. Cahen, M. Rodinson and M. Lombard) along with other non-conformists (such as M.G.S. Hodgson), were breaking new ground. Predictably, much of their work was ignored."

    In other words, Orientalism was an uncritical appendage of transcribing traditional Islamic texts and views ... think Karen Armstrong.  As such, it was a joke of an academic discipline, both immensely learned and immensely naive.  Ironically, Said's point was true and untrue -- it was true that Orientalism historically treated Islam as a strange and magical exception to normal religious studies, but that was true because Orientalism was so freakishly deferential to Islamic tradition!  The solution was to apply modern objective scholarship, not to defer even more slavishly to traditional Islamic religious piety.

    The hilarity of this approach, of course, is that it condemns treating Islam as some weird magical exception, since that is classic Orientalism, and asks that Islam instead be treated just like any other historical phenomenon ... which is precisely what Said wanted NOT to be done, he wanted to wrest Islam away from non-Muslims.  But no fair-minded version could argue against treating Islam like other historical phenomena.  In Crone's words:

    "‘I have simply refused to treat the Arabs as an exception to the normal rules of history, and something is badly wrong in Islamic studies if I have to justify this procedure,’ she wrote in response to an especially offended member of the Arabist old guard."

    And it is that approach which has made recent scholarship so fantastically productive -- no longer treating Islam as some bizarre and alien form of life, formed in a vacuum, but rather as the product of a specific religious milieu, integrated with Judaic, Christian, Zoroastrian, and other religious studies, as well as situating Arabic within Semitic languages more broadly and within scientific linguistics.  Not treating them as magical exceptions, as classic Orientalism did.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #55 - October 02, 2014, 10:12 PM

    Really interesting stuff, Zoatar.  Afro Thanks for your contributions. Could you expand on this a little more:

    Quote
    The 3 other uses of "Muhammad" in the Qur'an appear to be as descriptive epithets of the messenger, i.e. he is the 'praised one' or 'chosen 'one.'

  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #56 - October 02, 2014, 10:52 PM

    Sure, although Reynolds does the argument more justice.  Basically the point is that the term "Muhammad" appears to mean 'praiseworthy,' or, alternatively, 'chosen one.'  Now if you look at the other three instances where "Muhammad" is used besides 33:40, it makes just as much sense to interpret it as 'praiseworthy' rather than a proper name.  Here they are:

    3:144     Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

    47:2     And those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what has been sent down upon Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He will remove from them their misdeeds and amend their condition.

    48:29    Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

    Notice that even these traditional Islamic translations are a bit misleading -- look at 3:144, for example, on a word for word basis.

    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=144

    I would also point out the seeming anachronism in 3:144, which is directed to criticize those who would 'turn back on their heels' if the messenger is killed.  Almost certainly this was written after he WAS killed, to the shock and dismay of his followers, as discussed at length by Shoemaker.  In the verse, he is described as chastizing those who would turn away under such circumstances.  This must have been written very early, at a point where followers were dropping away from the movement in response to Mohammed's death, but before the movement had reformed in a way that was not dependent upon Mohammed's continuing existence and leadership.

    The general idea is that "muhammad" probably meant 'the praised one,' and it is likely that it was a convention in Arab Christianity to say that *Jesus* is the praised one and a messenger.  That is why a parallel formulation to 33:40 is the aya that says *Jesus* is the messenger of God.  This convention was also applied to the Arabian 'messenger,' who later was assigned as a proper name what had been an epithet.  Much as Alexander the Great is always called the "two-horned one" in the Qur'an, and there an *epithet* of Alexander became used as though it was a proper name.  Or as Potiphar is called "the mighty one," rather than by a name.

    Luxenberg has argued, I think quite wrongly, that even at the time of the Dome of the Rock the inscriptions were talking about *Jesus* when they said "Mohammed."  I.e. There is no God but Allah, and the Praised/Chosen One (i.e. *Jesus*) is his messenger."  I so think something roughly similar to this process of going from Christ-epithet to proper name of the Arab prophet probably occurred, but it happened LONG before the dome of the rock, and arose when Christian rhetoric about Jesus as the praised one was adapted to describe the Arabian prophet, and subsequently (given the jarring lack of historical evidence as to his actual name) became widely accepted as the prophet's proper name.

    What we see in the Qur'an's few mentions of the Mohammed is exactly this transition, with no mentions of Mohammed in the Meccan surahs, an abortive reference to "Ahmad", followed by two cryptic descriptive uses of the term "Muhammad" in connection with referring to "the messenger," and then two uses that strike me as post-death interpolations, one relatively early (3.144) and one quite late (33:40).

    Actually I wouldn't even call 3:144 an interpolation, as I think the first elements of the Qur'an were probably written, in creative fashion, shortly after Mohammed's death (although the Qur'an also includes pre-Mohammedan generic material).  So 3:144 was probably written up in that initial process of writing down what the prophet had communicated to people, trying to keep his movement alive.  Interestingly that's sort of the traditional Muslim view anyways, where Abu Bakr allegedly put together the first compilation shortly after Mohammed's death, although I obviously believe the process was a lot longer and more convoluted than the traditional Muslim view.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #57 - October 02, 2014, 11:04 PM

    Thanks for that. I personally doubt Muhammad would have been used as a title as it is not preceded by a definite article as titles are in Arabic.  Titles like "An-Nabi" "Al-Masih" and "Ar-Rasool" are distinguished by definite articles which make it clear they were titles and not names. I'd be interested to hear how those who assert "Muhammad" might have been a similar title respond to that. It's an interesting assertion nonetheless.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #58 - October 02, 2014, 11:21 PM

    I suppose the case could be made that the definite article may have been dropped to make it appear more like a proper name.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #59 - October 02, 2014, 11:29 PM



     
    We are having some superb discussions here!  I think there is something publishable here that could have huge effects on understanding Islam and its context.

    I haven't a clue how to achieve this but it needs to be done, a summary of key positions and thinking.

    Back to the OP, Tom Holland Shadow of the Sword argues similarly and I think Cron's Hagarism is very important in establishing where this happened - not in the middle of a desert but in and around Samaria.


     

    Moi, I'm with toi on this. 100%. I'm a massive fan of Tom Holland (and not necessarily about his book on early Islam). But this dude pisses all over him for his depth of knowledge, clarity and persuasiveness. I  honestly hang off his every word. We need to get this stuff into some kind of order, perhaps throwing in bits of Zeca and Tonyt , H&M and Humphrey Bogart. Even Yeez (on the days when he is not on acid). Yeah, Let's get this bottled.


    Hi
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »