Planning to marry a Muslim

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- Nas
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OP - July 08, 2014, 07:06 AM

Hey, long-time lurker of the forum, I contributed a few posts maybe a year ago I think, but didn't really bother after that and stuck to lurking. However, I feel as an ex-Muslim, and with the problem I have having to do directly with me being an ex-Muslim can be well discussed and hopefully solved here.

Basically, I started uni 2 years ago, moving into my third year now, I met a Muslim girl at the beginning of the year, it was cute, I had to pick a name out of the register as group leader to lead a small project within our course, and I picked her name from a list of other names. Fast forward a few months later, we start to date. She was informed about my apostasy pretty much the first week I met her, and she was very intrigued and fascinated by it, and also quite terrified as she likes to think of herself as a devout Muslim.

Anyhoo, as she believes in herself being a devout Muslim, her intention to date any guy would result in marriage, she would not date a guy if she doesn't believe that marriage isn't viable further down the road. After a few months of dating, she finally accepted that she would be willing to marry me, as I would also.

It should be noted we both are British Pakistanis with heavy influence from my parents to settle and marry, so I hate to think that I'm settling straight away, because I really don't want to spend too much time and effort looking for the 'one', but I guess it could be said that I haven't really dipped my foot into the pond.

Now, she layed down a few conditions early on that if we were to marry, and then have children, she would need to raise them as Muslims, and normally I would disagree but I realise that I'd still be in close contact with my family as she will with hers, and it's best to keep up appearances. I even agreed to carry on pretending to be a Muslim in front of the children. This was like a year ago, when I was pretty deeply invested into her.

It should also be noted that she is the perfect girl to bring home to my parents, she'll please my mum because they want a fair and pretty girl which she is, and my father who just wants a devout Muslim, which she can easily be whenever it suits her! So in that sense, I'm extremely lucky to have found a girl who is on one hand a Muslim and on the other hand she respects my apostasy. I really can't think I'll be able to find another girl who'd be the same, but I don't know maybe I'm being naive.

This may sound like I'm sacrificing my own happiness for the sake of her and my family, and I've always lived by the saying the only way to truly be happy is to develop the capacity to enjoy less, but I'm starting to have doubts.

I feel like I can do better than her, she's great in the sense that she'll be an awesome wife to me, in terms of taking care of all the little things I really don't like to do, and she does give me her full attention at all times, at times she's completely crazy about me, and I feel like I won't get that with another girl. On the other hand, she doesn't share one interest or hobby with me really, her obsession with romance and me can sometimes be overwhelming. and most importantly, I feel like her faith and my lack of faith will clash someitme in the future, most notably when we have children.

Sorry for such a long ramble, that isn't exactly written very well. TL;DR, Planning to marry a Muslim, who would like me to keep up appearances and also raise our future children as Muslims. First I was on-board with this, now having doubts.

Should have stayed in. Read a book instead.
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Reply #1 - July 08, 2014, 07:11 AM

Welcome.

This might sound harsh. but there is no fucking way you should even consider having children and raising them muslim, along with you pretending to be one, when you are not a muslim yourself. If you can find me a single instance of this having a happy ending, I will give you my life savings, one of my legs, and my Honda Shadow motorbike.

If you're going to stick with this girl, you need to at the very least agree to let them grow up and make up their own minds. The only way things like this ever have even a hope of working out is if the parents agree to both be honest with their children and let them come to their own conclusions. Lying to your own children, raising them to believe something you think is untrue, will crush your soul. If she was a christian or a hindu or whatever other religion you care to mention, I would give you the same advice.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
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Reply #2 - July 08, 2014, 07:23 AM

I have to agree with Quod. There are a few ex muslim members on here keeping up appearances with muslim spouses, and I think for the most part, all of them are struggling under the weight of that burden.

It is of course hard for me to imagine the pressures that pakistani culture inflicts on you, I see it all the time, and that in itself seems like a massive burden to bear. I'm Moroccan and my feelings of cultural duty are extremely non-existant so it is easy for me to say to you, don't do it. whereas for you, that burden of needing to marry someone your parents approve of is much stronger.

There are many members here however who do understand that feeling, so you aren't alone on that.

However, I still believe that you need to seriously question this commitment you might be making. It seems easy now to think of what works for you, and what works for her. But your future children will be people too, and what works for you two, could have a negative impact on them.

If you are going to make this sort of decision, let it not rest upon what works for you and her, but on the effect it could have on children being brought up in a very confused household. Either non believers like yourself, who need to spend their life pretending in order to protect their parent's secret, or as believers, who also have to hide that secret out of love. Don't give the burdens you have, to your children.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #3 - July 08, 2014, 07:24 AM

Yeah, I've come to the realisation that I cannot teach them Islam.

It's not a problem when I occasionally teach it to other children at my mosque (I'm also a Hafiz btw) because I'm only teaching them words they don't understand and how to say such words with fluency.

But not my own children, I'll have to bargain and find a way where we both can compromise at best.

Should have stayed in. Read a book instead.
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Reply #4 - July 08, 2014, 07:27 AM

this is a really tough one Nas. But I think the answer may be contained here

Quote
I feel like I can do better than her, she's great in the sense that she'll be an awesome wife to me, in terms of taking care of all the little things I really don't like to do, and she does give me her full attention at all times, at times she's completely crazy about me, and I feel like I won't get that with another girl. On the other hand, she doesn't share one interest or hobby with me really, her obsession with romance and me can sometimes be overwhelming. and most importantly, I feel like her faith and my lack of faith will clash someitme in the future, most notably when we have children.

the first question is, are you ready to commit to her for life? because it seems to me that there are other non religious issues that are perhaps more important, and you're having doubts in their own right, regardless of the religious factor.

Are you happy? Will you be happy? Take a step back, don't rush into anything. Be honest about your feelings and don't be hurried into a commitment you are not totally ready for yourself.

That is just general relationship advice, over and above the possible problem with differing views on belief and raising kids.

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Reply #5 - July 08, 2014, 07:48 AM

Overall in life, I'm extremely happy with what I have in all honesty. The few friends that know of my apostasy think me to be a very lucky person that I have found a Muslim girl who loves me for who I am, and I'd be an idiot to let her go.

It should be made clear that I do love her, I used to have doubts about this, but just last week a day before Ramadan which was the last time we would have the chance to meet until after Ramadan, I found myself crying when I realised I won't be seeing her for a month.

The whole situation in my mind is very conflicting. I could do a pros and cons list and I'd still be sitting on the fence.

Should have stayed in. Read a book instead.
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Reply #6 - July 08, 2014, 08:10 AM

I would say you need to think really carefully about this, what stuckout for me in what you said is that you guys don't share a lot in common

Quote from: Nas on July 08, 2014, 07:06 AM

I feel like I can do better than her, she's great in the sense that she'll be an awesome wife to me, in terms of taking care of all the little things I really don't like to do, and she does give me her full attention at all times, at times she's completely crazy about me, and I feel like I won't get that with another girl. On the other hand, she doesn't share one interest or hobby with me really, her obsession with romance and me can sometimes be overwhelming. and most importantly, I feel like her faith and my lack of faith will clash sometime in the future, most notably when we have children.

This above quotation is so negative in terms of her, if you feeling now that you can do better and meet someone more compatible, what is going to happen 5-6 years down the line...

I have been married, for 7 years, I was a muslim at the time, and my ex and I had similar problems, we had NOTHING in common, we had different understandings of religions and caused SO many problems.

I think you really need to think beyond the here and now and think 5 years down the line do you see yourself getting bored, irritated, regretting raising your kids muslim?

HOw old are you btw? I am sure you have enough time to make such a big decision, I think you need not rush to be married
Take your time, slow down, and look beyond how you feel right now, because trust me I know, feelings change.

A relationship is based on so much more then love, compatibility plays a big role

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Reply #7 - July 08, 2014, 08:14 AM

My best advice is that when you get a chance, the two of you need to sit together somewhere private and talk honestly. Asking you to live your entire life as a lie, to lie to your own children, the problems that will come, it's not fair. It's not fair on either of you.

Say to her, flat out, "Can you accept raising any children we may one day have without me having to pretend their father is someone else? Can you accept that both of us are honest with them, both of us tell them what we do and don't believe, answer them if they have questions, and let them grow up and choose their own path?"

You need to have this conversation with her mate.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #8 - July 08, 2014, 08:22 AM

Quote from: confusedagno on July 08, 2014, 08:10 AM
I would say you need to think really carefully about this, what stuckout for me in what you said is that you guys don't share a lot in common

This above quotation is so negative in terms of her, if you feeling now that you can do better and meet someone more compatible, what is going to happen 5-6 years down the line...

Yeah what confusedagno said, I kinda feel bad for her that you would think that about her...you think you can do better than her but you stay because:

Quote
she's great in the sense that she'll be an awesome wife to me, in terms of taking care of all the little things I really don't like to do

Sorry to sound mean but maybe you should sit down and reflect on that sentence.
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Reply #9 - July 08, 2014, 08:48 AM

Pretty much what everyone said and

Do you really want to throw away your chance at complete freedom by marrying a muslim ?

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #10 - July 08, 2014, 10:01 AM

Simply put, don't do it.

I know you're in love, but love will come again. More importantly, after the honeymoon period is over and after time goes by, the relationship you have right now will change, as it always changes, and I could bet you anything that you will begin to resent the times you have to hold your tongue and put on a face. Even if you somehow get her to agree to raise the children with open minds, once she has those kids, I wouldn't expect her to stay true to her word, especially since she laid down those conditions upfront. Even if she thinks she would compromise now, you have to understand what you're dealing with: a devout woman who believes that Heaven or Hell awaits her and her family, and who will always feel compelled to protect her children and mold them into the kids she's always imagined for herself, and I wouldn't be surprised if she began to resent you for making that a difficulty, as well.

Take it from me. I have it pretty easy. My husband stuck with me through a lot, through my apostasy, and there's almost nothing that he won't compromise with me over, almost nothing that he won't give me. But two years into our marriage, the religion is constantly driving a wedge between us. We don't look at the world the same way. We don't have the same hopes, the same morals. We're not even standing on similar ground, and I find myself starved for like-minded company.

I still love the guy, but sometimes, when I sit with a friend who really understands me, the kind who gets me even if I didn't say anything at all, I feel like crying. I know I am returning home to a man who I've tried to reach through hours and days of discussion, and who still can't understand things the way I do, and that man is supposed to be the closest to me and that relationship is supposed to be the easiest and most secure.

And if we ever have children, he wants to name those kids after nice, strong figures in Islam (idiots and tyrants to me) and teach them to be Muslims. He's had the names picked out since long before he met me. He swears now that he wouldn't take them from me, but who fucking knows with people in Muslim communities, especially in his country, actively encouraging the abduction of children from kaffir parents to save their poor souls from ruin. Someday, he might change.

On one hand, I don't want any of this for myself. On the other hand, I don't want to take the future that he wants from him. If we compromise on huge issues like this, neither of us will really be satisfied. The middle ground is not enough for either of us here, and it fuels animosity or resentment.

Just don't do it. That's the best I can say. I'm sure she's lovely, and I'm sure you two are in love, but love happens often, love comes and goes. For marriage, it's best to find a partner for that who will be by your side no matter what, who has similar views, with whom you'll make a great fucking team, who you can say anything to and nothing is forbidden or too sacred for discussion.
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Reply #11 - July 08, 2014, 10:24 AM

Quote from: Nas on July 08, 2014, 07:06 AM
Hey, long-time lurker of the forum, .....

Basically, I started uni 2 years ago, moving into my third year now, I met a Muslim girl at the beginning of the year, it was cute, I had to pick a name out of the register as group leader to lead a small project within our course, and I picked her name from a list of other names. Fast forward a few months later, we start to date. She was informed about my apostasy pretty much the first week I met her, and she was very intrigued and fascinated by it, and also quite terrified as she likes to think of herself as a devout Muslim............

well Nas that is good start ., give her some time .. read together.. cook together.. eat together.. go to movies together ..grow together Learn to be friends without that "let us go to bed " tension..

So... READ SOME QURAN TOGETHER...., why hurry in to marriage after all you are just a 3rd year college student ..??

Well ., you both guys having that Pakistani Background, you could also read together books of this great man

He was from Pakistan.. let me know if you would like to read.. I will provide you links..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #12 - July 08, 2014, 10:33 AM

Yeezevee's post reminded me of a bit of extra advice if I didn't already totally overwhelm you with negativity, but honestly, I can't advise enough against entertaining the idea of making her question or leave Islam, or even taking it upon yourself to show her things that will make her more open-minded and tolerant. That's a terribly frustrating project with very little chance of ever paying off and will likely just end in anger. Besides, it's very likely that she may be similarly hoping that she can slowly draw you back into the fold of Islam.

It's nice if you can hang out with her and be friends and do these things like Yeezevee said, but if you know that it's either marriage or nothing at the end of this path and you do decide against marrying her, I would advise you to distance yourself from her. It will only get tougher to see clearly and harder to imagine being without her the more time you spend cultivating any relationship with her, as per usual with relationships...
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Reply #13 - July 08, 2014, 10:43 AM

I think if you have an element of doubt then it's probably not a good sign.. It's best and easier to be with someone who has the same outlook as you, i was given this warning by my iman on my wedding day, infact it was his wedding speech lol.. I didnt take the hint :/ anyway with any marriage or relationship it is always hard to predict if it will last.. I'd give it time like Yezeevee said and just be her friend for a while.. the islamic differences will put a strain on you both, unless her view on islam matches yours or vice versa..

Xxx
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Reply #14 - July 08, 2014, 11:05 AM

Quote from: Jila on July 08, 2014, 08:22 AM
Yeah what confusedagno said, I kinda feel bad for her that you would think that about her...you think you can do better than her but you stay because:
Quote
Sorry to sound mean but maybe you should sit down and reflect on that sentence.

Yeah, that didn't sit right with me either.

I agree with quod and lua. I don't think faking Islam in your own home with your kids is going to be easy. Religion aside, you're young and at uni still, so it's not like you need to rush into marriage. I don't think you should jump into this relationship with the doubts you're having about it.
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Reply #15 - July 08, 2014, 11:56 AM

Dude, if you are already having doubts then it doesn't sound right. When you have kids it is going to be a lot harder, not a lot easier. Especially if you have to raise them as Muslims.

What would happen if you suggested to her that you want to raise them to be open minded and to allow them to follow any belief they want? Why not try that and see how she takes it. If she goes hysterical about that then that right there is a sign that she will also have major issues with all kinds of parenting issues down the line. On the other hand if she remains calm and is willing to compromise on some things then that would be a positive sign....
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Reply #16 - July 08, 2014, 02:08 PM

Do your really want to spend your whole life, the only life you have, lying to your own kids and living with someone who believes you're going to hell for not believing in her God?

What will your life be like? Do you think you can be happy?

The future is full of thrilling possibilities.
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Reply #17 - July 08, 2014, 02:12 PM

If you love her then marry her.

Not all Muslims are crackpots.

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Reply #18 - July 08, 2014, 02:15 PM

^

She wants to raise his kids as muslim and he'll have to pretend he is muslim to her parents and others.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #19 - July 08, 2014, 02:23 PM

Yeah, it's not about all Muslims being a certain way. She sounds like a good person, and it's true that her understanding of the OP is on the rare (but not unheard of side), but love is sometimes not enough for a happy marriage. In this case, I truly think one or the other will have to sacrifice so much as to become unhappy, if not now then when kids are involved.

Besides, as others pointed out, the OP is already saying things like he knows he can do better than her, and that's a worrisome sign.
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Reply #20 - July 08, 2014, 02:46 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on July 08, 2014, 02:15 PM
^

She wants to raise his kids as muslim and he'll have to pretend he is muslim to her parents and others.

I was raised by Muslim parents. Stop stereotyping please. We should all be above such prejudice.

Love is love.

Let it fly.

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Reply #21 - July 08, 2014, 02:52 PM

Your experience doesn't really compare though right?

You were raised by muslim parents, emphasis on the 2 of them being muslim. Not being made to hide the apostasy of one, to the family of both.

I just honestly don't understand why, given everything an ex muslim must go through in lying, hiding, and constantly faking belief, anyone would actively choose to do that to their children.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but if kids are something one wants in the future, one of the biggest gifts they could give that child, is the freedom that they never had.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #22 - July 08, 2014, 02:56 PM

I don't think that's what any of us mean, Jedi. Just because they are raised as Muslim won't mean the kids won't be lovely kids. But even in other ways besides religion, huge disagreements between parents on how to raise their children can be an enormous amount of stress on the relationship. If the OP has his heart set on raising kids without religion and the prospective wife insists that they must be raised Muslim, one of the two will have to give up what they want, and they ought to have this discussion and be ready to stand by their word when it happens.

TDR mentioned that he would be expected to pretend that he is Muslim when he's not. I think a lot of us could understand how frustrating this is. I and others on the forum can also attest to how difficult it is to be restricted in a marriage in this way. I've done it before, and I would not want it for someone else. It's not the hypothetical kids we're worried about right now, or at least that's not what I'm concerned with. It's the well-being of the OP, not to mention the woman he might marry.
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Reply #23 - July 08, 2014, 02:56 PM

Lol Jedi, its not a stereotype, we are all talking from experiences, love is actually not the only thing to consider when marrying someone, it is one of many things that make a relationship last over the years.

Love, trust, compatibility, shared interests, attraction both physically and mentality, shared world view, shared ideals and morals ,these are things that help promote a healthy lasting relationship.

Like I mentioned before the feelings of just love can change over time, especially at some point when one may feel they may have given up too much of themselves for their partner,

You were brought up with muslim parents (as were most of us) but this will be one parent muslim and one not, they would both have to be happy with how to raise the kids to a point where either one is not going to change their minds one day and say no wait, I don't like this, then confusing the relationship and child.

It is a complicated situation were a lot needs to be considered properly, taking time and thinking ahead.

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Reply #24 - July 08, 2014, 03:04 PM

I'm in your shoes, but married.

Only you know what is good for you.
You won't really know how it is until you're in it.

You can make all the deals you want, as we did, but it tends cause strife.
Even raising kids as Muslim. We agreed they would be taught Islam until they're in they're old enough (guess around 11-12), then I can tell them anything.
There is not to be any talk of hell or blind obedience. Basically, Islam as god is good and you should pray.

I was never the 'fall in love' crazy kind of guy. I dated a bit, but not enough to know enough to make such an informed choice to be tied to someone for the rest of my life. I approached it too rationally and thought it was all about compromising and making it work. But there's plenty of fish in the sea. I did take the time to think about these things, but here's where I am.

It's not good for her or me to be thinking we could have had someone more compatible or one that I wouldn't fear is brainwashed. Forget about her teaching them Islam. It's the weird hesitance I have of leaving my future kids with the inlaws for fear they brainwash them. Just think about that. Is that the kind of relationship you want to have with your in-laws. I have sorted out my side and my parents know I'm not Muslim.

I think many of the comments are right. Tread carefully my good man.
Just try this one. Take a break from this girl. Try dating non-Muslim girls for like 6 months or a year at least. See how you feel.
After that, see how you feel.
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Reply #25 - July 08, 2014, 04:15 PM

No, love is not all that there is to consider but it's great palce to start when deciding to spend the rest of your life to consider. .

BUT, how do you know the kid will be raised 'Muslim' in the way you interpret to be 'Muslim'? What is a 'Muslim child'? And how does a child being raised as a 'Muslim' mean they will lack any sort of freedom that an 'atehist' child would? I sometimes despair at this kind of stereotyping based upon the assumption of a worst case scenario.

As far as 'hiding' apostasy is concerned, well it is for the individual to act like a mature person. From the sounds of it the girl has been upfront and stated how she feels and what she expects whereas the OP has not. Be honest and tell her how you feel. If you think you can do better then tell ehr and face the consequences rather than leading her on.

It is possible for a Muslim and an apostate to have a lovely relationship and raise their children to be 'Muslim' and the type of Islam that is taught is determined by a whole range of factors, just as Christians marry unbelievers/atheists and raise children based upon diluted Christian teachings.

Sometimes apostates get hung up on being apostates. That's not to say that issues of domestic violence, lack of rights or psychological torment do not occur as a consequence of religon as they clearly do. But there are examples out there of Muslimahs marrying 'Muslim by name only' and raising 'Muslim' chidlren and they function very well in society.

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Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

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Reply #26 - July 08, 2014, 04:36 PM

Quote
It is possible for a Muslim and an apostate to have a lovely relationship and raise their children to be 'Muslim' and the type of Islam that is taught is determined by a whole range of factors, just as Christians marry unbelievers/atheists and raise children based upon diluted Christian teachings.

There's a difference between Christians and Muslims. The latter (most of time, but there are always exceptions) take the Quran literally, they don't follow it metaphorically as many catholics/christians do nowadays.
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Reply #27 - July 08, 2014, 04:40 PM

I would possibly agree with you to some extent if he was head over heels for this girl, feeling like he can't live without her, that she's the only one for him, etc etc, but that doesn't sound like the case from what he's said. Love is important in a marriage, but love typically visits more than once in a person's lifetime.

If you are trying to convince him that he should not care whether his kids are raised Muslim or not, that's a separate issue. There can often be very real stresses and challenges in a marriage between a devout Muslim and an atheist, it really has nothing to do with whether or not the kids will turn out fine. Sure, it's possible that a Muslim and an apostate will have a great relationship, but it requires a lot of understanding, a lot of compromise, and a lot of hard work. Pulling this off successfully is, in my observation, a rarity, and it often requires one person to surrender more often than not to keep the peace, as the OP would if he takes your advice and raises his children to believe a theology he finds to be untrue.
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Reply #28 - July 08, 2014, 04:55 PM

Put it in context, I was responding to people who said do not marry simply because she is Muslim and he is not and because the child being raised Muslim will have a detrimental effect on him. There's no evidence of this other then anecdotes.

If he doesn't want to be with then he should man up and make that decision.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Planning to marry a Muslim
Reply #29 - July 08, 2014, 04:58 PM

Quote from: INcePtion on July 08, 2014, 04:36 PM
There's a difference between Christians and Muslims. The latter (most of time, but there are always exceptions) take the Quran literally, they don't follow it metaphorically as many catholics/christians do nowadays.

You're wrong. There are many Muslims out there who don't take it literally, and some who may believe in the myths but it has no real impact on their life. There are also some that would say certain elements are metaphorical. It's not to the extent that Christians in this country do, but when I mentioned Christian I meant practising catholic Christian.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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