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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi from Birmingham

 (Read 6601 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hi from Birmingham
     OP - June 17, 2014, 02:17 AM

    Hi All

    I am UK born and raised, living in Birmingham of Pakistani Punjabi heritage.  I knew Islam was a man-made CULT at the age of 13.  Happily married with 4 children ranging from 17 - 25 years of age.  I am an agnostic.  Wife knows my views.  She is a cultural muslim.....does not pray or read quran or fast.  I am lucky in that way.  Have just recently opened up to my two daughters.  I told them to keep it quiet as I will be in deep trouble if they ever leaked my views to family or friends as I live in a heavily populated Muslim area of Birmingham.  They are on the fence at the moment.  Ramadan is only a few days away.  My 20 year old did an 18 hour fast on shab-e-barat.....she became dehydrated and started getting pins and needles in her arm and fainted.....I forced her to break the fast and told her my views on Islam at that point as I could not see her suffer for an imaginary being.  Alarm bells started ringing for me a few days back when I went to see an Auntie and was shocked to see her 23 year old Grand Son had turned into a fully bearded Salafi/Wahabi....a few months ago he was into clubbing and all sorts!!  This got me worried for my own kids.....either I instill critical analysis skills into my kids NOW or let them be exposed to the salafi grooming gangs waiting to pounce on them at school/college/Uni/work/neighbourhood!!  Before 29th June, I intend to present the case of ISLAM is MAN-MADE to my kids.  All I need is just one piece of proof from the Quran which shows what a man-made piece of rubbish it is.  Flat earth? Sperm coming from the backbone and ribs rather than the testicles?....opinions please on the best ONE proof that can put a nail in the coffin for me on this whole Islam CON.  There is a saying in punjabi roughly translated into english goes like this...."there is no need to scrape down to the bottom of a pot of cooked rice to tell how tasty the rice are....just a handful from the top is enough to get an idea of what the whole pot contains!!!". Therefore, only ONE blatant error is enough to prove that the Quran is not from ALLAH, but MU-HAM-MAD!! Suggestions please Smiley

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #1 - June 17, 2014, 02:28 AM

    Welcome!  parrot You do indeed sound lucky. It seems like you have a lovely family.

    There are lots of problems with the Quran...my pet one might be the shooting stars are missiles for devils verse. Apologists can do some crazy tricks to try to change the meanings of any verse that suggests geocentrism or a flat earth, or they can say that the sperm coming from the place between the backbone and the ribs is not to be taken literally, but I've never seen anyone offer a successful explanation of the anti-demon drones. Even if they try to say it is metaphorical, they've never been able to give me even a creative idea of what that metaphor might be. Grin

    It would be great if your kids would be convinced by just one error, but in my experience, sometimes the will to keep believing makes one require an extraordinary amount of evidence, more than what should be necessary. Of course you'd know if your family will be an exception, but in general I'd say it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with all of the contradictions and errors just in case one or two of them doesn't strike a nerve.

    Good luck!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #2 - June 17, 2014, 02:39 AM

    I would go with criticising Quranic worldviews (i.e. geocentrism) and "old" miracles (Buraq, moon splitting etc..)
    Don't waste your time with trying to refute scientific claims of the Qur'an, as they are nowhere to be found within the original context. Superimposing Science on the Qur'an is a modern day dawah method & has no place within traditional Islam.


    & Welcome to the forum.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #3 - June 17, 2014, 02:43 AM

    If they retort with the Fir'awn claim, you know where to find me grin12

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #4 - June 17, 2014, 02:44 AM

    Thanks Lua  Smiley  "the shooting stars are missiles for devils" verse is a very good one.  I agree with you, the more proofs I have the better.  I am confident that the cracks will start appearing as soon as one proof is given but like you say, there are many counter-arguments. Thanks again.

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #5 - June 17, 2014, 02:46 AM

    You're very welcome, let us know how it goes!   Afro
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #6 - June 17, 2014, 02:46 AM

    Thanks Qtian  Cheesy Love it!!  Flat earth, buraq and moon splitting  thnkyu

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #7 - June 17, 2014, 02:48 AM

    Will do Lua  Smiley

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #8 - June 17, 2014, 02:49 AM

    No problem Smiley

    Lua, check my masterpiece reply to the allopatric speciation strawman.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #9 - June 17, 2014, 02:52 AM

    Aw, you made it sad.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #10 - June 17, 2014, 02:53 AM

    Thanks Qtian  Cheesy Love it!!  Flat earth, buraq and moon splitting  thnkyu



    You might find this interesting Tongue

    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1684.htm

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #11 - June 17, 2014, 02:54 AM

    Aw, you made it sad.


    The creationists did, not me.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #12 - June 17, 2014, 03:14 AM

    Awesome Qtian  Cheesy

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #13 - June 17, 2014, 09:03 AM

    Hey mate, welcome.  parrot We had someone join up asking for 5 strongest arguments against the quran so he could refute them and show islam is the truth. Still waiting on that. Anyway, these were my idle thoughts.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17132.msg732724#msg732724

    Were your children raised to believe in islam or was it more that everyone in their surroundings (family, friends, neighbours) believed so they followed suit? I'm guessing the latter.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #14 - June 17, 2014, 09:06 AM

    Oh, and here's a thread dedicated to the miracles claim.

    Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #15 - June 17, 2014, 09:28 AM

    the problem is that the quran doesnt outright say that the earth is flat. If you assume Islam to be true, there are ways of making what we find in the quran internally consistent with that assumption.

    If you don't start with the assumption that islam is true, then the quran looks like a flat earthed, 7 heavened, geocentric creation myth.

    Obviously, it is the rational approach not to start by assuming it is true. But it is difficult to persuade a person who's freedom to ponder has been constrained by threats of infinite punishment.

    I think Adam and Eve is less easy to reinterpret as metaphor. You do have to choose between science and islam.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #16 - June 17, 2014, 02:00 PM

    Presupposing the truth of your conclusion can nullify any intellectual inquiry though Dr_Sloth, it's not just Muslims who are guility of this.
    LDM summed up the issue in of their videos, they stated that Allah is omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient so anything he states is then rational, such as the Buraq (mythical steed).

    I.e., the following form of reasoning is utilised by many:

    1. If Allah is all powerful, whatever the Qur'an states is rational.
    2. Allah is all powerful.
    3. Therefore, whatever the Qur'an states is rational.

    What they can't do is give us empirical evidence for their assertions which means that the premises are not sound.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #17 - June 17, 2014, 02:36 PM

    hello panjabiagnostic, I am not a Muslim but forgive me if I make few suggestions. Usually, I do not comment on threads of this nature. Best way to educate the children is not to give them a lecture but to engage them in a converstaion. Expressing your thoughts and explaining them the reason behind your thinking. For example, the health hazards of fasting during the day and gorging oneself with heavy meals at nights. Or, it would be better to do something useful than wasting time praying 5 times a day - something the young people can relate to. Or watching science documentaries with them and talking about the discrepancies in the Quran.........etc.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #18 - June 17, 2014, 11:44 PM

    Hi punjabiagnostic. Welcome to the forum, and have a rabbit!  bunny

    I don't have any specific nail in the coffin argument for you, but I do think that the most disgusting thing for me that made me question Islam's validity was its treatment towards women. Surah al-Nisaa has a number of such ghastly things, including the dreaded 4:34.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #19 - June 18, 2014, 03:36 AM

    Ask them to read the Quran critically.   The amount of whining Allah does for a supreme being is nauseating.  Threatens people and whines.  I came to the realization that I never really loved the concept of allah, I was scared of him but never in awe or loved him.   Allahs a big bully, a cosmic debo, who wants to believe in that?.


    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #20 - June 18, 2014, 05:26 AM

    Attachment to religion is emotional- not logical. Showing them logically why Islam is not true will not work - if they are emotionally invested in it.
    Show them the bits that would shock them- slavery, torture, rape, sex with a child, beating wife etc. Stuff which has emotional impact for them ( with emphasis on the "for them").
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #21 - June 18, 2014, 10:12 AM

    Hello there punjabiagnostic! Smiley

    Happy to have you here - here is a welcome parrot parrot Piggy says hello too! piggy

    To a non-Muslim like me your story provide a bit of an insight into the Muslim communities which exists in some places. I'm not from Britain, but we have some areas here in Denmark where the majority of inhabitants are of Muslim background and I know some of them struggle to get out or just trying to prevent their kids from going and blow themselves up for ISIS lipsrsealed

    I really wish your luck with instilling some skeptical thinking into the minds of your daughters.

    What will happen if word got around that you are a non-believer? Do your wife agree on your little project?

    Best wishes from Søborg Smiley



    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #22 - June 19, 2014, 01:33 AM

    Thank you to all for a wonderful welcome to this group.  I have taken your points on board and am formulating my action plan.  Watch this space  grin12

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #23 - June 19, 2014, 01:37 AM

     popcorn

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #24 - June 19, 2014, 02:20 AM

    Hi Guys,

    I plan on showing the below to my Kids.  This ONE error to me is the most blatant and easily PROVES that the Quran is MAN MADE -

    The Quran has been translated into various world languages to enable non-arabic
    speakers to understand what they are reading.  If a translated word or sentence is
    inconvenient, the following excuses are given – “interpretation is wrong”, “it is not
    meant literally”, “incorrect translation”.  Any translation from Arabic to another language MUST have been APPROVED by the relevant SAUDI MINISTRY OF
    RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS so there can be no argument.  Take your pick of one from the
    seven english translations you are comfortable with !!!!  NO EXCUSES PLEASE!!

    In google, type http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=31

    I have personally chosen the Yusuf Ali translation, but any of the six others is fine -

    Verse 86:5 “Now let man but think from what he is created!”
    Verse 86:6 “He is created from a drop emitted-“
    Verse 86:7 “Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:”!!!!!

    Clearly, SPERM comes from the TESTICLES, not from ANYWHERE ELSE!!!

    I just love the internet, don’t you?  Thank ALLAH for corpus.quran.com website
    which makes understanding his SHIT more easier!!!

    One error is enough to prove that the QURAN is NOT DIVINE, but written by MU-HAM-MAD!!

    Islam is like the Mafia.  You are welcome to join but if you decide it is not your cup of tea, you can only leave in a COFFIN!!!!
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #25 - June 19, 2014, 02:35 AM

    There are a number of people who try to refute the sperm thing, so you might want to have a look at those. To be honest the quran is a very poor book. There are parts of it that are boring as fuck, others that are quite moving, but in it's entirety it's just not that great. Also, the whole "Bring a chapter like it" thing? Keep in mind Iblis tricked Mo into thinking he was bringing a revelation from allah. Apparently the "chapter like it" was so good it fooled Mo and Gabriel had to come and say it was bullshit. So, game set and match right there.

    Ever see the Jinn&Tonic show? If not, you might want to youtube it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #26 - June 19, 2014, 02:39 AM

     parrot
    Welcome!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #27 - June 19, 2014, 03:13 AM

    A rock will come to life and say "O muslim! There is a jew behind me! Come kill him!"

    “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam to a Jew or Christian, and if you meet them in the street, push them to the narrowest part of the road."

    Narrated by Muslim, 2167, or see Hadith - Sahih Bukhari Book 25, Number 5389, Narrated AbuHurayrah

    Surah 65 verse 4 allows you to marry and divorce girls that haven't had their periods yet in some translations.

    Quran.com has a few different translations: http://quran.com/65/4

    Sahih International
    And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

    Muhsin Khan
    And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

    Pickthall
    And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

    Yusuf Ali
    Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    Shakir
    And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

    Dr. Ghali
    And as for those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, in case you have any suspicion, then their (fixed) spell shall be three months, (along) with those who have not menstruated (as yet). And (as for) those with burden, (i.e., those who are pregnant) their term is when they bring forth their burden; and whoever is pious to Allah, He will make for him, of His Command, easiness.



    The highlighted translations seem to be talking about underage/pre-pubescent girls. The others are more vague. Arabic speakers, would love to hear your opinions.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    And you should seriously take a look at this.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23145.msg664397

    And some funny pics because it fits nicely. Grin


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #28 - June 19, 2014, 03:29 AM

    Good luck! Yes, be prepared if they bounce back after a few days having found some apologist's explanation on the internet that satisfied them. That happens a lot. There's a thousand and one ways to change the meaning of a Quranic verse if it suits you. You might have to debunk the sperm verse, and then spend some time killing various reincarnations of it.
  • Hi from Birmingham
     Reply #29 - June 19, 2014, 03:42 AM

    One of the funniest rebuttals to the sperm thing was by Zakir Naik claiming that in the womb the unborn, before fully developing, will have the testicles in a different position, and it's only at a certain stage in the development they reposition themselves between the legs. Made me laugh. Actually, let me see if I can find it...

    Quote
    In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.


    http://www.islamicvoice.com/january.97/scie.htm

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=r6_EAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=Zakir+Naik+In+embryonic+stages,+the+reproductive+organs+of+the+male+and+female,+i.e.+the+testicles+and+the+ovaries,+begin+their+development+near+the+kidney+between+the+spinal+column+and+the+eleventh+and+twelfth+ribs.+Later+they+descend;+the+female+gonads+(ovaries)+stop+in+the+pelvis+while+the+male+gonads+(testicles)+continue+their+descent+before+birth+to+reach+the+scrotum+through+the+inguinal+canal.+Even+in+the+adult+after+the+descent+of+the+reproductive+organ,+these+organs+receive+their+nerve+supply+and+blood+supply+from+the+Abdominal+Aorta,+which+is+in+the+area+between+the+backbone+(spinal+column)+and+the+ribs.+Even+the+lymphatic+drainage+and+the+venous+return+goes+to+the+same+area.&source=bl&ots=-96HVyQpfm&sig=tjKO3jz8iKi3HCO9foBeyNWQfcI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9lqiU5rZBtKS0AXm9YDACQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Yusuf Ali decided it was metaphorical.

    Quote
    A man's seed is the quintessence of his body. It is therefore said metaphorically to proceed from his loins, i.e., from his back between the hipbones and his ribs. His backbone is the source and symbol of his strength and personality. In his spinal cord and in the brain is the directive energy of the central nervous system, and this directs all action, organic and psychic. The spinal cord is continuous with the Medulla Oblongata in the brain


    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0bR5BQ2kjnkC&pg=PA446&lpg=PA446&dq=Yusuf+Ali+A+man's+seed+is+the+quintessence+of+his+body.+It+is+therefore+said+metaphorically+to+proceed+from+his+loins,+i.e.,+from+his+back+between+the+hipbones+and+his+ribs.+His+backbone+is+the+source+and+symbol+of+his+strength+and+personality.+In+his+spinal+cord+and+in+the+brain+is+the+directive+energy+of+the+central+nervous+system,+and+this+directs+all+action,+organic+and+psychic.+The+spinal+cord+is+continuous+with+the+Medulla+Oblongata+in+the+brain&source=bl&ots=60jMKDGo-3&sig=TJnOhUCBEmCefj_-pqAUtjD0tLo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nFuiU_v5EY2M0wWC0oGIBA&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yusuf%20Ali%20A%20man's%20seed%20is%20the%20quintessence%20of%20his%20body.%20It%20is%20therefore%20said%20metaphorically%20to%20proceed%20from%20his%20loins%2C%20i.e.%2C%20from%20his%20back%20between%20the%20hipbones%20and%20his%20ribs.%20His%20backbone%20is%20the%20source%20and%20symbol%20of%20his%20strength%20and%20personality.%20In%20his%20spinal%20cord%20and%20in%20the%20brain%20is%20the%20directive%20energy%20of%20the%20central%20nervous%20system%2C%20and%20this%20directs%20all%20action%2C%20organic%20and%20psychic.%20The%20spinal%20cord%20is%20continuous%20with%20the%20Medulla%20Oblongata%20in%20the%20brain&f=false

    http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbworld.aspx?pageid=8589953019

    http://www.kalemasawaa.com/noor/english/ac/sex_determination.htm

    The best part is that this also rubbishes the quran's claim that it's meaning is clear. Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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