'Islamic State' a.k.a. ISIL

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- Naerys
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Reply #2070 - May 25, 2015, 02:33 PM

I fail to comprehend any of this.

He's no friend to the friendless
And he's the mother of grief
There's only sorrow for tomorrow
Surely life is too brief
- suki
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Reply #2071 - May 25, 2015, 03:33 PM

Why aren't we doing anything about it..
- hatoush
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Reply #2072 - May 25, 2015, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Skywalker on April 30, 2015, 02:10 PM
The fact that Assad has allowed IS to make gains, shows how dictators in the Arab world survive, by making the choice seem to be between them and jihadis.

in the Algerian civil war , we had a feeling that the Algerian army somehow tolerate, or even infiltrated the most extreme of the armed insurgency to discredit the "moderate" Islamic opposition, but honestly between an army dictatorship and the jihadis, i am grateful that the army has won.

i still remember very well how those Islamic scholars from the Gulf who supported the armed insurgency, and declared that we are kuffar and jihad is an obligation in Algeria, and i still remember very well how the USA and the west in general has gave refuge to leaders figure from the insurgency who explicitly did not condemn terrorist attacks.
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Reply #2073 - May 25, 2015, 06:06 PM

Quote from: suki on May 25, 2015, 03:33 PM
Why aren't we doing anything about it..

Why aren't the muslim countries doing anything about it? They keep saying they want the west to help. Why exactly? They have a combined army of what, five million? They could wipe IS out tomorrow.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2074 - May 25, 2015, 06:42 PM

Quote from: suki on May 25, 2015, 03:33 PM
Why aren't we doing anything about it..

I hope it does not get to the point where the west has to deploy troops to sort this out.
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Reply #2075 - May 25, 2015, 06:43 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 25, 2015, 06:06 PM
Why aren't the muslim countries doing anything about it? They keep saying they want the west to help. Why exactly? They have a combined army of what, five million? They could wipe IS out tomorrow.

Incompetent third world countries.
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Reply #2076 - May 25, 2015, 06:50 PM

How competent do you have to be for five million of you to win a fight against thousands?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2077 - May 25, 2015, 07:10 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 25, 2015, 06:50 PM
How competent do you have to be for five million of you to win a fight against thousands?

Anything is possible with these Arab states lol
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Reply #2078 - May 25, 2015, 09:56 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 25, 2015, 06:06 PM
Why aren't the muslim countries doing anything about it? They keep saying they want the west to help. Why exactly? They have a combined army of what, five million? They could wipe IS out tomorrow.

Because Muslim countries are not actually united. All of them have different geo-political interests within the region. The Iranians will be very hostile towards ISIS while the Saudis would be very supportive.

And within those Muslim countries, there is probably so much instability that I doubt they can do anything.
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Reply #2079 - May 25, 2015, 11:03 PM

Is it bad that I feel a strictly imposed western colonial force would be better than all this? Either that or an occupation lasting 30-50 yrs like post-ww2 Germany which at least for the Western Germans turned out okay? Nobody wants to do a proper job, or what they view as a proper job is a barbaric fail (SA, Iran, US).
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Reply #2080 - May 25, 2015, 11:16 PM

Germany had a conventional army that was defeated,these groups use gerilla tacticts and are more difficult to fight.14 years of fighting in Afghanistan proves this point.A 100 years ago, it might have worked to change culture through occupation when such ideologies could be contained,but with the information age those ideas can travel online. The Soviets tried changing Afghanistan in the 80s,which created a backlash, and Im wondering if the Russians have not done the same in Chechnya.The US and European Nato allies maybe more successful in the long term as the Afghan population support their presence in Afghanistan
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Reply #2081 - May 25, 2015, 11:33 PM

Quote from: someone1991 on May 25, 2015, 09:56 PM
Because Muslim countries are not actually united. All of them have different geo-political interests within the region. The Iranians will be very hostile towards ISIS while the Saudis would be very supportive.

And within those Muslim countries, there is probably so much instability that I doubt they can do anything.

Sadly this is true. The only thing they have in common is a worry that criticising Saudi Arabia is akin to criticising islam. Although there are Saudis who are worried about the islamic state, despite the hand they had in creating them. It's Frankenstein's monster, basically.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2082 - May 26, 2015, 02:59 AM

Quote from: Lilyesque on May 25, 2015, 11:03 PM
Is it bad that I feel a strictly imposed western colonial force would be better than all this? Either that or an occupation lasting 30-50 yrs like post-ww2 Germany which at least for the Western Germans turned out okay? Nobody wants to do a proper job, or what they view as a proper job is a barbaric fail (SA, Iran, US).

you assumed western powers want stability in the middle east in the first place, I am not really sure that is their policy.

I worked once in Iraq, and one of the hot topic we liked to discuss ; Myself and bunch of expat ( Europeans and Americans) is why the USA invaded Iraq, honestly we couldn't reach any logical reason ( even this oil thing does not make sense from economical point of view).

my guess, the USA knew exactly what they are doing, and they want a weak chaotic Iraq.
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Reply #2083 - May 26, 2015, 03:59 AM

9/11 was a gift to the administration. A gang of pissed off muslims, some Saudis and a Pakistani if I remember correctly, attack the US in such a way that the the US public support going to war because "We need to do something". Rather than declare a war against islam that results in a common enemy and a uniting of the ummah which Bin Laden wanted, Bush and Blair make a point of saying this is not a war against islam, this is a war against terrorists, and then invade Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein, which the previous administration had wanted to do but failed to gather the support for. The Bush administration was able to do what the previous administration was not. The result of this was the powerful nations fucking things up because they didn't understand the centuries old middle eastern politics, tribal hates and blood feuds.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2084 - May 26, 2015, 04:22 AM

"9/11 was a gift to the administration. A gang of pissed off muslims, some Saudis and a Pakistani if I remember correctly, attack the US"

call me nut or whatever you want, i find it hard to believe that a bunch of Arab terrorists can handle such a very complex and sophisticated attacks, I am not suggesting it is an inside job or any conspiracy theory, but i find the official account too simplistic to be taken seriously.
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Reply #2085 - May 26, 2015, 06:07 AM

I think the ISIS group activity and behaviour is very unusual for arabs and muslims, it's like theatre, which makes them appear like a western creation, a caracature of a medeival muslim. They are, like Quod said on another thread, behaving like cartoon villians, it's an evil on another level we have never seen before. I don't get it..
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Reply #2086 - May 26, 2015, 11:14 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on May 26, 2015, 03:59 AM
9/11 was a gift to the administration. A gang of pissed off muslims, some Saudis and a Pakistani if I remember correctly,

15 Saudis, 2 UAE, 1, Egypt, 1 Lebanon.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #2087 - May 26, 2015, 12:22 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 26, 2015, 02:59 AM
................ is why the USA invaded Iraq, honestly we couldn't reach any logical reason.......................

my guess, the USA knew exactly what they are doing, and they want a weak chaotic Iraq.

Hi hatoush., I don't think US of A... people of US of A or even Bush Govt at that time knew exactly what they were doing why they invaded Iraq., Why Saddam Hussein took his country to war knowing well Americans will bomb the hell of his Government .

Suppose we assume what you said is right that they knew what they were doing,..

what did they gain by doing what they did?..
what did Bush family/relatives/friends get out of that war?
What did Bush party get out of that war?
what did 300 million or so Americans get out of that Iraq war??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2088 - May 26, 2015, 12:25 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 26, 2015, 04:22 AM
call me nut or whatever you want, i find it hard to believe that a bunch of Arab terrorists can handle such a very complex and sophisticated attacks, I am not suggesting it is an inside job or any conspiracy theory, but i find the official account too simplistic to be taken seriously.

I agree to a certain extent. I think we will have to wait many years before full information is released about that attack. I suspect the US government was negligent.
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Reply #2089 - May 26, 2015, 12:42 PM

Quote from: someone1991 on May 26, 2015, 12:25 PM
.................... I suspect the US government was negligent..................

Not Just US of A or not just that 9/11., any every terrorist acts that took place against any country or any government, we can say that they were negligent ... but that doesn't help going to the bottom of such dreaded acts .. 21st century terror is not like fighting with swords or raiding caravans someone1991 ..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/politics/27exodus.html?_r=0
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/14/10672374-new-questions-about-fbi-probe-of-saudis-post-911-exodus
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml
http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=14289

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2090 - May 26, 2015, 12:58 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on May 26, 2015, 12:22 PM
Hi hatoush., I don't think US of A... people of US of A or even Bush Govt at that time knew exactly what they were doing why they invaded Iraq., Why Saddam Hussein took his country to war knowing well Americans will bomb the hell of his Government .

Suppose we assume what you said is right that they knew what they were doing,..

what did they gain by doing what they did?..
what did Bush family/relatives/friends get out of that war?
What did Bush party get out of that war?
what did 300 million or so Americans get out of that Iraq war??

They wanted a weak and unstable Iraq, and they are doing the same policy now in Syria, why ? i have no idea.
seriously anyone with a basic knowledge in politics, will understand that dismantling the Iraqi army will lead to a total failure of the country, and i think it was not a mistake and a negligence.
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Reply #2091 - May 26, 2015, 01:34 PM

Quote from: suki on May 25, 2015, 03:33 PM
Why aren't we doing anything about it..

Doing what? Starting another war in the Middle East? Giving that every war we started, ended up by being epic, epic failure...

You know what we should do, we should put that bastard Bush in prison for life. And idiots who backed rebels in Libya and helped rebels/islamists to top Gaddafi off, should be also held accountable for the misery they helped to be created. Mr. Sarkozy on the front row.

The best thing we can do is to f...ing stay out of waging wars there. But as we elect dumb politicians, I doubt will ever happens.
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Reply #2092 - May 26, 2015, 01:55 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on May 25, 2015, 11:03 PM
Is it bad that I feel a strictly imposed western colonial force would be better than all this? Either that or an occupation lasting 30-50 yrs like post-ww2 Germany which at least for the Western Germans turned out okay? Nobody wants to do a proper job, or what they view as a proper job is a barbaric fail (SA, Iran, US).

Dear Lily, yes it is bad. Different culture, different religion, so many differences...
BTW, when Bush invaded Iraq in 2003 he said he is very confident that Iraq will be transformed into a very flourish democracy, as was happened to Romania. Probably his entourage sold him the info that Romania is somehow ethnically and religious diverse as Iraq and the result will be the same in Iraq. I doubt the idiot is able to even locate Romania on the map.
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Reply #2093 - May 26, 2015, 02:19 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 26, 2015, 12:58 PM
They wanted a weak and unstable Iraq, and they are doing the same policy now in Syria, why ? i have no idea.
seriously anyone with a basic knowledge in politics, will understand that dismantling the Iraqi army will lead to a total failure of the country, and i think it was not a mistake and a negligence.

Hmm do you want to say that somehow, evil smart West wants to destabilize the Middle East and create chaos there? What we will gain from this? Hundred of thousands of illegal middle eastern immigrants on our shores. Do you think West wants this?

I think first thing to take on this equation is that usually here, we are electing politicians, many of them plain idiots. Check out this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II1zAObtwlM

Do you think with this "clever" dude and his administration, it is not quite possible that USA government back then in 2003 was taking to much in consideration the economic benefits that they will get from Iraqis oil, without taking into account all the other factors?
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Reply #2094 - May 26, 2015, 02:27 PM

For what it's worth, I don't think that this degree of instability was planned--at all. Yes, we weren't amazing with leaving really capable people in charge after the war, but I think that, while a lot of the invasion can be attributed to things more nefarious, that part was just poor planning, and also some coincidence, what with the switch-up of the presidents and the change in politics and popular view of the occupation.
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Reply #2095 - May 26, 2015, 02:39 PM

I don't think its coincidence that we do invasion much better than aftermath. It is a known thing that there would be political will for the former, but not to ensure the latter.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #2096 - May 26, 2015, 02:44 PM

Well, a lot of it was happening IIRC around the transition and there was a lot of pressure on Obama to get the fuck outta there quickly, right? But yeah, probably mostly just poor planning.
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Reply #2097 - May 26, 2015, 03:16 PM

I don't think it's "poor planning" as to why there are various forms of chaos throughout most of the developing world, nor is it coincidental that most of the western powers' actions tend to contribute towards it instead of ameliorating or even ignoring it.

The system is set up to exploit poor, powerless masses. Because exactly what would keep the vast majority of people in such a state is hard to quantify and pinpoint, but correlations are easier to see, a blunderbuss approach is employed.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #2098 - May 26, 2015, 03:17 PM

Things have worked pretty well for western power interests with an unstable, brutally violent middle east (maybe a bit too unstable at the moment, but can't make an omelet without breaking eggs). No point trying to upset that.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #2099 - May 26, 2015, 03:21 PM

Yes for some of it, although I'm still not with you on the instability part? Because I don't think we really wanted this scenario, and although some knew it might be an issue, I don't think we were hoping for shit like daesh, and I can't imagine what the benefit would be for us now. As far as I can tell, our MO has been to knock a place down and set up a new guy who we think might keep things manageable for us and ideally back our interests. Am I totally off base here?
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