LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore

Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #60 - April 20, 2014, 08:52 PM

Quote from: Qtian on April 20, 2014, 08:47 PM
However, Yeez:

Muslims believe in the tenets of Islam, ~~Heaven & Hell~~ are two core tenets of Islam. Therefore it does make sense to question this flawed incentive system.
Nevertheless, I do appreciate your witty response (as usual)

Hello Qtian

Most of the fools know very little about two core tenets of Islam and I assure you they are not related to those two STUPID WORDS. I am of the Opinion Islam started for some other reason and became something else.

Any way you tell me what I think are the two core tenats of Islam that in fact is the reason to start Islam. Now question to you is., who started it? and what are those two core tenets Qtian

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Qtian
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #61 - April 20, 2014, 11:00 PM

Hello again, how is your laptop now?

I'm afraid that I don't really understand the latter part of your response Yeeze.

My burden of proof is with reference to heaven and hell since I stated that they are two core tenets of Islam.
My proof for this? It is demonstrable that Muslims subscribe to this. I don't think that using the genetic fallacy is a good way of approaching this. It may be true that Islam has dubious origins, but this doesn't wipe away the current consensus on heaven and hell being well accepted beliefs.
I'm failing to see how Heaven & Hell are not related to the tenets of Islam when they are mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an.

Is it possible that we have misunderstood each other on the term "tenets"?
The definition of tenet which I am using is: a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.

Now correct me if I am wrong, Muslims are promised Jannah for good deeds, Jahannam for bad deeds.
(this is a simplification for the sake of making my response shorter)
These two beliefs are then core in Islamic philosophy as they settle the stance for afterlife, the ultimate incentive to conform to Islam- a chance to attend Allah's after party.

If your issue is with the words "Heaven" and "Hell" as opposed to their meanings, let's redefine heaven as someplace that seems nice and hell as someplace that seems awful.

Now, based on this redefinition, let's look at part of a surah taken from tafsir Ibn Kathir (al hijr):

Truly, those who have Taqwa, will dwell in Gardens and water springs (It will be said to them): "Enter it in peace and security.'') And We shall remove any deep feeling of bitterness from their breasts. (So they will be like) brothers facing each other on thrones.) No sense of fatigue shall touch them, nor shall they be asked to leave it. Declare to My servants that I am truly the Forgiving, the Most Merciful.) And that My torment is indeed the most painful torment.

For the sake of argument, I will take what you have said as a given:

- Islam started as "x" and became "y"

Ok, what would we call this corrupted version of Islam then? So far as the Qur'an is concerned, it is still Islam.
So far as the consensus is concerned, it is still Islam & so far as scholars are concerned it is Islam.
Therefore, even if every single principle of Islam was stolen from some other ideology & inserted into the Qur'an, it doesn't change the fact that Muslims are supposed to believe in the word of the Qur'an (reference to muhammad and satanic verses maybe?) so they are supposed to believe in the claims that it makes.
My initial statement was not that Islam monopolises its tenets, simply that it has tenets which are clear.

Conclusion: Heaven & Hell are definitely core principles(tenets) in Islamic doctrine.

I will summarise my response with the following argument:

Muslims are told to believe in what the Qur'an Says.
The Qur'an states "X"
Therefore, Muslims should believe in "X"

This is different to the argument that principles of Islam should be interpreted via literalism or via inter/intra textual approaches.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #62 - April 21, 2014, 12:06 AM

Quote from: Qtian on April 20, 2014, 11:00 PM
Hello again, how is your laptop now?

well not good Qtian not good., everything works on that except intrnet., that is funny., I know lot of rascals love to shut me down., but this is funny problem because PC works perfectly and everything I store about the forums has on it.. but it doesn't want to go to internet.. anyways that is ll right., where there is a will there is a way..

Quote
I'm afraid that I don't really understand the latter part of your response Yeeze.

you mean the questions I asked??
Quote
Any way you tell me what I think are the two core tenets of Islam? ... who started it? and what are those two core tenets Qtian

that is all rigt...

Quote
My burden of proof is with reference to heaven and hell since I stated that they are two core tenets of Islam.

My proof for this? It is demonstrable that Muslims subscribe to this. I don't think that using the genetic fallacy is a good way of approaching this. It may be true that Islam has dubious origins, ~~but this doesn't wipe away the current consensus on heaven and hell being well accepted beliefs~~.

Well if you could wipe away the origins of Islam that is there in silly books and reasons for Islam, why it started at that time and educate the folks about it, you will essentially wipe out most of junk from Islam for that matter from other religions..

Quote
I'm failing to see how Heaven & Hell are not related to the tenets of Islam when they are mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an.

well tell me which religious books/sayings did not mention about hell and heaven?? My point was that is not new o Islam. it was already there., It is just rehashed for the purpose of brain washing and propagating Islam.

Quote
Is it possible that we have misunderstood each other on the term "tenets"?

Well I understand your points but my tenets of Islam are different ..
Quote
The definition of tenet which I am using is: a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.

Now correct me if I am wrong, Muslims are promised Jannah for good deeds, Jahannam for bad deeds.

I agree with you there but tell me which religion says or promises Jannah for bad deeds, Jahannam for good deeds??

rest of your post I will get back to you later Qtian.,

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #63 - April 21, 2014, 12:13 AM

well this Past present: Heaven on earth by Mubarak Ali is an interesting article that is published to day in Dawn., it is very relevant for what we are talking here . let me add some nuggets from it here
Quote
Every religion has a certain group of people who believe that over a period of time, religion becomes distorted, polluted and misinterpreted — as a result of which, it loses its originality, purity and simplicity. These people then make it their mission to revive the original teachings of religion and implement them to reform the society.
..........
Quote
To implement their religious ideals, these groups struggle to capture state power and then use it to transform society according to their particular vision..........
History has several examples of individuals who, gripped with religious fervour and zeal and desirous of accomplishing their ideas, strove to seize power and implement their agenda. The followers of these religious movements claim to be ‘rightly guided people,’ assigned by God to convert the world into a ‘religious utopia’ so that everyone would strictly follow divine commands.

.....

O ne example of this breed is Savonarola (d.1498), the Florentine priest who was a fiery speaker and a religious extremist. He attacked the authority of the church and the spiritual power of the Pope.
...............

Quote
Another attempt to implement religious ideas was made in Geneva by John Calvin (d1564) who broke away from the Catholic Church and established the Calvinist sect...............After assuming political power, he was in a position to implement his religious agenda. As a first step, he exiled people who disagreed with him while those in favour of his beliefs were allowed to stay and observe his laws. In case of refusal, they would be excommunicated from the church, exiled from the city, imprisoned and even awarded the death penalty.

...............
Quote
In the subcontinent, Syed Ahmad Shaheed and his zealous followers led a jihad movement, the Tariqah-i-Muhhamadiyah, and founded an Islamic state in what is today known as Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. He declared himself caliph and Amir-ul-momineen. He introduced strict Islamic laws according to the Wahabi interpretation. Those who protested or refused to abide by these severe strictures were severely punished. Eventually tiring of his fundamentalist religious policies, the Pathans rebelled against him and expelled his followers from Peshawar. He and most of his disciples were killed in the battle of Balakot in 1832.

...................

well in short those are three examples he takes .. But he seem not to understand the difference between ROOTS OF ISLAM.. and the roots of Christianity

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Qtian
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #64 - April 21, 2014, 12:23 AM

I am sorry to hear that Yeez, if I can think of anything else I will let you know, perhaps try some computer forums online?

1. "Jannah"/ "nice place" entails "good deeds" (conforming to word of Allah) as proposed by the Qur'an.
"Jahannam"/"bad place" where the tree of Zaqqum will be food....entails "bad deeds" (not conforming to the word of Allah) as proposed by the Qur'an.

2. "you mean the questions I asked??"
Yes, I do not fully understand the question you are trying to ask. I never stated that there were only two core tenets. Furthermore, I don't see why I have to account for the origins of Islam when my claim was never based on that.

3. "Well if you could wipe away the origins of Islam that is there in silly books and reasons for Islam, why it started at that time and educate the folks about it, you will essentially wipe out most of junk from Islam for that matter from other religions.. "

That claim is based on the origins of Islam. My claim was analysing the incentive system that Islam proposes. Since Islam is not removed, we have to analyse Islam for what it currently is, as the existence of Islam is an assumption that we cannot escape:

Afterlife:
Muslims believe that one's condition in the afterlife is determined by the degree to which that person has accepted the unity and justice of God and therefore acted justly and with mercy toward others. Believers—those who have faith in God's revelations and have lived accordingly—will go to heaven. Nonbelievers and evildoers will be punished in hell.
Qur'anic Teaching.
The culture into which Muhammad was born did not generally believe in the afterlife. When Muhammad began to preach about the resurrection and the accountability of each person at the time of judgment, he faced scorn and scepticism. Nevertheless, the message of the Qur'an teaches that God will indeed raise the dead, judge all people based on their deeds during their lifetime, and determine their eternal destiny. The moment of resurrection and judgment represents the final and absolute power of God over human destiny and the crucial nature of responsible human behavior.
The Qur'an provides details about the events that signal the end of time and the coming of the day of resurrection, the judgment process, and the conditions that will be experienced in paradise and in hell. The Qur'an says, for example, that terrifying events will signal the end of the world and that all people will gather for judgment. It describes the crossing of the Sirat bridge (which spans the fires of hell), the possibility of intercession, and the preparation for one's final entrance into hell or into the gardens of bliss. Surah 9.19–30 of the Qur'an explains how the circumstances of one's final resting place are indicated in the accounting of one's book of deeds. The person who is given his or her book in the right hand is destined for a blissful eternal rest. But the person who is given the book in the left hand will be seized, bound, and exposed to the burning fire of hell.
The Fire of Hell.
The fire of hell—called Jahannam—is often described in traditional Islamic literature as having seven gates. Information gathered from several passages in the Qur'an suggests that these gates may be meant for different categories of sinners. The bridge of Sirat stretches over the flames. Those who have lived a good life pass across the bridge easily. But evildoers find the bridge razor-thin and fall into the flames.
The tortures of the fire are fearsome. Roaring flames, fierce boiling waters, scorching wind, and black smoke torment the wretched inhabitants. Their scorched skins are exchanged for new ones so they suffer the pain repeatedly. The sinners drink foul liquids in a hopeless effort to quench their thirst. Boiling water is poured over their heads and iron hooks drag them back if they try to escape.
The Gardens of Paradise.
The Qur'an clearly identifies those who are destined for a blissful eternal rest in the gardens of paradise. These fortunate souls do good works and are truthful and obedient. When they fail, they express remorse and seek forgiveness. They feed poor people and orphans, and they have faith in the revelations of God.
Descriptions of life in the garden are as vivid as those of the tortures of the damned. The faithful are peaceful and content. They enjoy gentle speech, pleasant shade, fruits, and meat if they desire. They drink delicious wine from a shining stream and suffer no ill effects. Servants wait on them as they recline in silk robes on beautiful couches. Male inhabitants of the garden enjoy the attentions of the huris, beautiful young women with eyes like pearls. The joys of paradise also include choirs of angels singing in Arabic and the ability to eat and drink 100 times more than one could normally hold.
Religious Issues.
Theologians have addressed a host of issues concerning the reality of human responsibility and of divine judgment. One such question involves the dilemma of individual freedom versus the recognition of divine power and omniscience. Another is the matter of God's justice balanced with God's mercy. The Qur'an makes it clear that those who are in the fire will remain there forever. Later commentary interprets it to mean that they will remain only as long as the fire lasts, and that God in his mercy will at last bring all souls to paradise.
Throughout Islamic history there have been wide differences in thinking about whether the details of resurrection and judgment should be understood literally or symbolically. Traditionalists believe that for the great mass of the faithful, the descriptions given in the sacred scripture are to be taken at face value. More recently, however, some scholars have come to see the details of the afterlife as metaphors and symbols.
One of the strong affirmations of traditional Islam has been that those who earn eternal happiness in the garden will have the opportunity to gaze on the face of God. Some Muslims believe that this is to be taken literally. Others interpret this to mean that the ultimate reward of a good life is the supreme pleasure of dwelling in the hereafter in the presence of the divine.
Until recently, most Muslims writing about Islam in the twentieth century have avoided going into detail on the subject of the afterlife. Instead, they have chosen to affirm the reality of human accountability and of the day of judgment without focusing on the specific consequences of that judgment. The great majority of commentators who speculate on the nature of the realities of the afterlife acknowledge that the world to come is beyond clear human understanding. They maintain that all that humans need to know is that the judgment itself is inevitable and that God's justice will prevail.
• The In-Between Time
Barzakh, which means “interval” or “partition,” refers to the time immediately after death and before the resurrection. It is not discussed in the Qur'an, but later writings that deal with the afterlife have suggested several temporary circumstances in the barzakh that are affected by the quality of life lived by the deceased. For example, the judgment a person faces at the end of time is predicted by his or her ability to answer correctly the questions posed by two terrifying angels, Munkar and Nakir, immediately after death.

Therefore, for those who take Islam at face value - Jannah and Jahhanam do exist, this ties in with my answer to 1.
As long as this view exists, it is beneficial for us to examine this incentive system - which is what my first post stated (which is what sparked this very interesting discussion).

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- Qtian
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #65 - April 21, 2014, 12:24 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 21, 2014, 12:13 AM
well this Past present: Heaven on earth by Mubarak Ali is an interesting article that is published to day in Dawn., it is very relevant for what we are talking here . let me add some nuggets from it here.....

O ne example of this breed is Savonarola (d.1498), the Florentine priest who was a fiery speaker and a religious extremist. He attacked the authority of the church and the spiritual power of the Pope.
...............
.................................. well in short those are three examples he takes .. But he seem not to understand the difference between ROOTS OF ISLAM.. and the roots of Christianity

Thank for for the article Yeez, I always enjoy them. I have added my first response to your rebuttal, I will add the rest of my response later, I am going to sleep now.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- Qtian
- Pub Regular
- offline
LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore
Reply #66 - April 21, 2014, 12:31 AM

Also, I have a decent collection of works ranging from sexuality to Abraham (most of the works are referenced). If you would like, you can give me an email address via inbox and I will send them to you in a ZIP file, maybe you can add them to your book collection on this forum?

(I am back to work tomorrow, so I will be on this forum less)

Additionally, I have academic works on blasphemy & apostasy (worth a bit of money but I can give them for free), but it will be a zip file of several documents.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »

CEMB → Forum → News and Events → International news and issues → LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore

Welcome

Donations

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...

Qur'anic studies today

Lights on the way

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...

Do humans have needed kno...

What's happened to the fo...

New Britain

Iran launches drones

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^

Eid-Al-Fitr

Mock Them and Move on., ...

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...

Theme Changer

Topic: LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS., Gas balloons explode burns 40 people in Lahore

yeezevee

Reply #60 - April 20, 2014, 08:52 PM

Qtian

Reply #61 - April 20, 2014, 11:00 PM

yeezevee

Reply #62 - April 21, 2014, 12:06 AM

yeezevee

Reply #63 - April 21, 2014, 12:13 AM

Qtian

Reply #64 - April 21, 2014, 12:23 AM

Qtian

Reply #65 - April 21, 2014, 12:24 AM

Qtian

Reply #66 - April 21, 2014, 12:31 AM

Basic Information

General Resources

CEMB Organisation