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Theme Changer

 Topic: Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK

 (Read 8440 times)
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  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #60 - April 17, 2014, 10:51 PM

    What if the man is in his 80s, has had a good full life, doesn't like life now and has made the rational decision in sound mind that his time has come, knowing that he would be unhappy if he continues to live?

     
     
    I would probably be tempted to "off" myself in that situation as well. 

    If I'm an old frail man who's retired from my career and all of my friends have died I would not see any point in living. I mean your adventurous years have already passed you by and you have no friends to talk to and no job to go to during the day. At that point you have already had all your life changing experiences so there is not much else to do.

     But then again I would always have books and novels to keep me company.  And as long as I am of sound enough mind to learn new things then life would still be worth living.

    And you can also go and make friends with other seniors. Your never too old to make new friends. 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #61 - April 17, 2014, 11:03 PM

    Your eyesight could be gone though.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #62 - April 18, 2014, 02:15 AM

    What if a person who suffers from depression, which is treated, decides they do not want to live their life in a drug induced state? Such thoughts usually result in more medication. One of my issues is states are willing to throw cheaper solutions at people, pills. Rather than an expensive one for physical conditions. Look at Hawking, he is still a useful person but requires extensive care. I wonder if everyone with a physical illness was offered the care Hawking has how many would still want to die?
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #63 - April 18, 2014, 05:57 AM

    Your eyesight could be gone though.

     

    Audiobooks and learning braille.   Smiley

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #64 - April 18, 2014, 01:44 PM

    I think those who stand against it generally do so out of their own self-interest, not out of any altruistic or substantive concern for those suffering. The idea doesn't sit right on their conscience, even as an abstract idea. Presumably they believe their discomfort at the idea is important enough to veto the rights of other people to manifest their own interests and end a much more profound suffering of their own. An actual experienced and fully realised suffering.

    I’m surprised that the notion that euthanasia should not be allowed for any “sane” adult who wants it is considered radical here. Seriously guys?

    Well for me I have no problem with her or any other sane minded adult choosing to end their life. However, the relevant question for society is in what cases should people be receiving "assistance" to do it and to what extent. This seems like a rather fringe case to me, and probably not what "assisted suicide" legal provisions would be meant to accommodate.

    Pretty much, this.

    I mean, you encounter perfectly healthy young people who want to kill themselves after a relationship ends or they lose a job or fail at something. The prospect of such people being able to simply walk into a hospital or some other facility and be legally killed is quite scary. Sure, they may have just killed themselves anyway but perhaps they would have tried to pull through if state assisted suicide wasn’t such an easily available option? I’m of the opinion that euthanasia should only be available to people who are in physical pain, incapacitated with little/no chance of recovery and severely diminished quality of life, and who are unable to commit suicide on their own, like the quadriplegic I mentioned above. If he was physically able to, he'd have offed himself. I don’t see why a healthy 40-year-old who has decided he wants to die needs "assistance".
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #65 - April 18, 2014, 03:50 PM

    Quote
    I mentioned a court case where a quadriplegic with limited hearing who was losing his eyesight, fed through a tube inserted into his stomach, had no family and was living in a nursing home went to court for, essentially, the right to die.

     

    Ok in that situation it would be cruel and torturous to deny the person the right to euthanasia.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #66 - April 19, 2014, 07:52 PM

    Yep. My mother is one such person. I mentioned a court case where a quadriplegic with limited hearing who was losing his eyesight, fed through a tube inserted into his stomach, had no family and was living in a nursing home went to court for, essentially, the right to die. You'd think under such extreme circumstances an ideologue with even a smidgen of genuine compassion would reconsider. Nope, she was adamant he had to continue living for as long as God sees fit, his own self-determination and suffering be damned. Suicide is wrong, even the Bible says so. Roll Eyes

    That said, I’m surprised that the notion that euthanasia should not be allowed for any “sane” adult who wants it is considered radical here. Seriously guys?
    Pretty much, this.

    I mean, you encounter perfectly healthy young people who want to kill themselves after a relationship ends or they lose a job or fail at something. The prospect of such people being able to simply walk into a hospital or some other facility and be legally killed is quite scary. Sure, they may have just killed themselves anyway but perhaps they would have tried to pull through if state assisted suicide wasn’t such an easily available option? I’m of the opinion that euthanasia should only be available to people who are in physical pain, incapacitated with little/no chance of recovery and severely diminished quality of life, and who are unable to commit suicide on their own, like the quadriplegic I mentioned above. If he was physically able to, he'd have offed himself. I don’t see why a healthy 40-year-old who has decided he wants to die needs "assistance".



    Yes this generally sums up my position also. and I don't consider this to be a 'radical' approach as has been claimed above. If we are going to write this into law, we should take a step by step approach and dip a toe, maybe take a review in 5 years or so and see if we can expand it, rather than just roll it out without considering where vague and ill-defined wording could lead to interpretation and abuse of the procedure.

    Someone else also said they would be against giving it if they were coerced or mentally ill, and I am 100% with them on that, but it seems that the only way to weed out coercion, which is not easy to prove, or people who are mentally ill, is to make that judgement by medical prognosis alone, and a serious consideration on ethical and medical grounds. This seems to be the best way for now, to ensure that people are provided this terminal procedure that cannot be reversed, for the right and medically necessary reasons.

    I bet you that there are many people alive today, who at one point in their lives, due to disability or tragedy, would have asked for this, and would have been given it, who later managed to fight through the negative feelings and went on to live otherwise happy, fulfilled lives, and who are glad they weren't handed the 'red pill' at first request.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #67 - April 19, 2014, 07:54 PM



    Ok in that situation it would be cruel and torturous to deny the person the right to euthanasia.




    Yes, I agree, that would be a very reasonable case for assisted dying.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #68 - April 19, 2014, 08:01 PM


     
    I would probably be tempted to "off" myself in that situation as well. 

    If I'm an old frail man who's retired from my career and all of my friends have died I would not see any point in living. I mean your adventurous years have already passed you by and you have no friends to talk to and no job to go to during the day. At that point you have already had all your life changing experiences so there is not much else to do.

     But then again I would always have books and novels to keep me company.  And as long as I am of sound enough mind to learn new things then life would still be worth living.

    And you can also go and make friends with other seniors. Your never too old to make new friends. 


    Yes, I agree with the second half of your message.  Afro

    "Always look on the bright side of life  whistling2" - Monty Python

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #69 - April 19, 2014, 08:07 PM


     
    I would probably be tempted to "off" myself in that situation as well. 

    If I'm an old frail man who's retired from my career and all of my friends have died I would not see any point in living. I mean your adventurous years have already passed you by and you have no friends to talk to and no job to go to during the day. At that point you have already had all your life changing experiences so there is not much else to do.

     But then again I would always have books and novels to keep me company.  And as long as I am of sound enough mind to learn new things then life would still be worth living.

    And you can also go and make friends with other seniors. Your never too old to make new friends. 


    Haha, you went from..... "I'd be tempted to off myself  Cry" to "...life would still be worth living  dance" in a paragraph.

    Just goes to show how a first decision may not always be the best one.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #70 - October 18, 2014, 08:53 PM

    I wonder why mental illness is always placed below physical illness.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #71 - October 21, 2014, 08:41 PM

    Well although I am no doctor, I would not consider mental illness to be 'terminal' and I am not aware that it is intrinsically painful. In any case, as far as this discussion is concerned, even under current lax legislation in Switzerland or elsewhere, those who are not considered 'of sound mind' are not eligible for assisted dying, as they must be considered to have full mental capacity, that is why it may not be relevant to this debate.


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #72 - October 21, 2014, 08:45 PM

    I don't think if I was terminally ill, I still would be "of sound mind".
    Anyway, you are right. It's not relevant to the debate.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #73 - October 21, 2014, 08:52 PM

    I also have a question that I would like to throw out there for you guys to kick around and give me your thoughts.

    How much do you think a belief in heaven/afterlife influences people with such thoughts to go by the euthanasia route unnecessarily.

    I wonder whether some of those 'heaven believers' who would like to be assisted with suicide but don't necessarily have a terminal, particularly debilitating or painful illness are too quick to seek euthanasia, and would they be so enthusiastic to die if they thought that this worldly life was the only one they ever get.

    I, for one, would like to hold on to life as long as I could possibly handle, even if the quality of it was lower than I had been used to. After all, the alternative has limited appeal.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #74 - October 21, 2014, 09:25 PM

    I believe each case is unique. It really depends on how an individual reacts to a situation like this.
    Some might , at the last stages of their life, lose faith and choose Euthanasia. While others would still see Euthanasia as something sinful, unacceptable, because they might hold the belief that only God can take away their life and that whatever happened, was for a good reason.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #75 - October 22, 2014, 06:54 PM

    Yes I am aware that gods in some religions frown on suicide, which is bizarre in my opinion. Suicide is sad and tragic but hardly worth a post-mortem punishment.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #76 - October 22, 2014, 09:07 PM

    It is selfish for anyone to force someone to endure life when they wish to end it. You want to die, then die.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #77 - October 22, 2014, 10:30 PM

    So you wouldn't try to dissuade someone who was going to jump off a cliff?

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #78 - October 22, 2014, 10:45 PM

    Maybe living in a condition like that would be "jumping off a cliff continuously", rather than ending it all for once.
     
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #79 - October 22, 2014, 11:13 PM

    Jedi's claim was not as nuanced as yours. He may have been simplistic but "If they wanna die, let 'em" is not a euthanasia law I would like to have established here in the UK.

    What about those who have at one point felt like committing suicide due to disability or illness and then went on to overcome their problems.

    What if someone didn't want to die by a cocktail of drugs but wanted to be pushed off a cliff or shot in the head? Would the state be obliged to carry this out? Who would carry it out, the medical profession? How would that sit with the Hippocratic Oath?

    Why do we even have services like The Samaritans?

    I may be strawmanning your argument, but I would suppose you would have limits on the availability and methods of state approved killing, even by consent. This is what the debate is about. How high should the bar be? How strict should the criteria be before granting a 3rd party the right to premeditatively kill another? Do we, as I suggest, base it on strict ethical guidelines informed by medical consensus or just by emotional request?

    Tough questions not to be taken lightly or rushed.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #80 - October 22, 2014, 11:43 PM

    Of course the options should be limited to few people. When did I ever say that everyone should have the right to it?

    As far as Im concerned, a doctor job is not just about saving a life but  also about not harming the patient.
    If you take a patient's freedom of choice away, you are adding to their torture


    Quote
    How would that sit with the Hippocratic Oath?

     

    Why "emotional request" does not matter?
    What good would it do to  prolong a terminally ill person's torture?


    Quote
    What if someone didn't want to die by a cocktail of drugs but wanted to be pushed off a cliff or shot in the head?


    Then I dont know.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #81 - October 23, 2014, 12:00 AM

    What if someone didn't want to die by a cocktail of drugs but wanted to be pushed off a cliff or shot in the head?

    Then they'll have to make other arrangements. It is imperative that we have access to humane assisted death, since the alternative of no access is inhumane and is currently an obstacle to relieving some of the worst possible suffering. This wouldn't mean picking a method of death out of a catalogue. Let's be sensible.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #82 - October 24, 2014, 07:10 PM

    Jedi's claim was not as nuanced as yours. He may have been simplistic but "If they wanna die, let 'em" is not a euthanasia law I would like to have established here in the UK.

    Why do we even have services like The Samaritans?


    It wasn't meant to be nuanced at all. I expected some people to think about the issue some more rather than consider my sentence to be the end of the conversation.

    Samaritans exist to listen to other peoples problems. They are trained NOT TO influence the final decision.



    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #83 - October 24, 2014, 07:19 PM

    Really? So there's no intent to prevent suicide? I imagine listening and offering sympathy would of course go a way to that and if someone is actually ringing in the first place that might be what they need, but still...

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #84 - October 24, 2014, 07:38 PM

    We hope that, through talking to us, you’ll get to a place where you see your situation in a different light.

    But we respect your freedom to make your own decisions, including the decision to take your own life. We’ll continue to talk with you if you’ve taken action to end your life.

    http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/what-speak-us-about/i-want-kill-myself

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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