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 Topic: Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK

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  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #30 - April 15, 2014, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 09:10 PM
    Hey, I was asking about this reason, not every reason given in the article.
    So, how do you know it was one of her main reasons?


    I don't, but all I can do is go by the article. If the article missed something important out then my position may well change.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #31 - April 15, 2014, 09:17 PM
    Mental illness and coercion are the only good reasons I can think of to deny someone euthanasia.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #32 - April 15, 2014, 09:19 PM
    Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 09:14 PM
    I don't, but all I can do is go by the article. If the article missed something important out then my position may well change.

    I'm thinking this may have been a bit of an aside from her, and the journo chose to accentuate it. It's the sort of thing that seems to me to be in the "Oh and another thing" category when you're on a roll fror grumbling, as opposed to being a case of "Technology makes me want to kill myself".
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #33 - April 15, 2014, 09:22 PM
    Thanks for all your replies guys n gals, you are making me think.

    It's not an easy one to legislate for.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #34 - April 15, 2014, 09:25 PM
    No, it isn't. There are going to be fuckups with anything like this. The legislation will evolve in response to any fuckups.

    The good news is that there are shitloads of spare humans anyway, so we wont run out of them even if there are a few fuckups. In fact, at this stage of the game lessening the sheer number of them is probably a good thing.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #35 - April 15, 2014, 09:33 PM
    Shouldn't  we be trying to pre-emptively prevent 'fuck-ups' before they happen with the most airtight legislation possible?
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #36 - April 15, 2014, 09:34 PM
    Fuck ups will happen either way. Plus if a person really is coerced by family then perhaps it was for the best anyway? If a family coerces like that either they were not caring anyway or had had enough of caring and couldn't cope any more. Either way if the person had been left instead in a care home, the quality of life may not have been great anyway leading to more suffering. Perhaps sometimes we focus too much on the black cloud of coercion and less on the silver lining of people being freed from the burdens of caring or of being left in a situation where they were not as cared for?
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #37 - April 15, 2014, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 09:33 PM
    Shouldn't  we be trying to pre-emptively prevent 'fuck-ups' before they happen with the most airtight legislation possible?

    Obviously, but they'll still happen to some degree.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #38 - April 15, 2014, 09:42 PM
    I would only support assisted dying or euthanasia if the case were due to extreme cases due to physical pain caused by an injury or illness which can not be controlled by medication. In any other case a person in question can do it themselves
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #39 - April 15, 2014, 09:45 PM
    That seems like a good basis to start with.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #40 - April 15, 2014, 09:46 PM
    Seems a bit limited.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #41 - April 15, 2014, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 15, 2014, 09:34 PM
    Fuck ups will happen either way. Plus if a person really is coerced by family then perhaps it was for the best anyway? If a family coerces like that either they were not caring anyway or had had enough of caring and couldn't cope any more. Either way if the person had been left instead in a care home, the quality of life may not have been great anyway leading to more suffering. Perhaps sometimes we focus too much on the black cloud of coercion and less on the silver lining of people being freed from the burdens of caring or of being left in a situation where they were not as cared for?


    So if a person who doesn't want to die gets bullied by family into ending their life, they're better off dead anyway?
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #42 - April 15, 2014, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 09:46 PM
    Seems a bit limited.


    A pretty good starting point, might need some tinkering.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #43 - April 15, 2014, 09:53 PM
    In some cases perhaps yes. It's not comfortable but possible for that to be the case.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #44 - April 15, 2014, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on April 15, 2014, 09:48 PM
    So if a person who doesn't want to die gets bullied by family into ending their life, they're better off dead anyway?


    Yeah, I agree that IS a bad reason.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #45 - April 15, 2014, 09:56 PM
    Quote from: bogart on April 15, 2014, 09:42 PM
    I would only support assisted dying or euthanasia if the case were due to extreme cases due to physical pain caused by an injury or illness which can not be controlled by medication. In any other case a person in question can do it themselves

    Ok, I can think of a case which borks this. I can find the relevant news article/vid if necessary, but the story is there's this woman who lives on the Sunshine Coast and has one of the motor/nerve degenerative diseases (can't remember exactly which one).

    Now she's not in any pain, and probably wont be. However, she has lived a full life and seems perfectly sane. She is not at all keen on gradually being reduced to a state of complete paralysis before the disease eventually kills her, which will probably take a long time if she is given all possible medical care.

    She would like the option of legal euthanasia at a time of her choosing. She made the point that since this is illegal at the moment, she would most likely have to do it herself to avoid incriminating anyone else. However, because she wont be able to do it herself past a certain point of the disease's progression, doing it herself effectively mean she would be forced to end her life before she really wanted to. If legal euthanasia was an option for her, this wouldn't be the case.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #46 - April 15, 2014, 09:56 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 15, 2014, 09:53 PM
    In some cases perhaps yes. It's not comfortable but possible for that to be the case.

    Let's all start bullying Lileyesque.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #47 - April 15, 2014, 10:04 PM
    I'm not saying that it's a perfectly moral scenario. I'm just saying that if I was incapacitated beyond the point I could care for myself, my family didn't want/couldn't care for me beyond putting me in a care home, that it might be the preferable option. This is especially the case as care homes often are not great with abuses occurring in them potentially leading to years of torture.

    Even if I didn't want to die, perhaps it would be a silver lining not to have the choice given the other option of years of pain. 
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #48 - April 15, 2014, 10:09 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 09:56 PM
    Ok, I can think of a case which borks this. I can find the relevant news article/vid if necessary, but the story is there's this woman who lives on the Sunshine Coast and has one of the motor/nerve degenerative diseases (can't remember exactly which one).

    Now she's not in any pain, and probably wont be. However, she has lived a full life and seems perfectly sane. She is not at all keen on gradually being reduced to a state of complete paralysis before the disease eventually kills her, which will probably take a long time if she is given all possible medical care.

    She would like the option of legal euthanasia at a time of her choosing. She made the point that since this is illegal at the moment, she would most likely have to do it herself to avoid incriminating anyone else. However, because she wont be able to do it herself past a certain point of the disease's progression, doing it herself effectively mean she would be forced to end her life before she really wanted to. If legal euthanasia was an option for her, this wouldn't be the case.


    Good point. Maybe consideration could be made for paralyzed people. However she still has the option of doing it herself. She is just uncomfortable with the fact that she would have to do it earlier than she would like. Her state is not sudden paralysis in which one is completely functional at one moment than not function at another. Uncomfortable facts are not a valid reason in my opinion.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #49 - April 15, 2014, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 09:56 PM
    She would like the option of legal euthanasia at a time of her choosing. She made the point that since this is illegal at the moment, she would most likely have to do it herself to avoid incriminating anyone else. However, because she wont be able to do it herself past a certain point of the disease's progression, doing it herself effectively mean she would be forced to end her life before she really wanted to. If legal euthanasia was an option for her, this wouldn't be the case.

    No, no os. She's just afraid of being paralyzed, that's all. What we really need is better care and support for people with gradual onset paralysis so that they ENJOY being paralyzed and won't want to die. Smiley
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #50 - April 15, 2014, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: bogart on April 15, 2014, 10:09 PM
    Good point. Maybe consideration could be made for paralyzed people. However she still has the option of doing it herself. She is just uncomfortable with the fact that she would have to do it earlier than she would like.

    Ok, so forcing people to kill themselves before they want to is a good thing?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #51 - April 15, 2014, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: bogart on April 15, 2014, 10:09 PM
    She is just uncomfortable with the fact that she would have to do it earlier than she would like.

    Yeah, I mean, get over it, right? How serious is she anyway. Roll Eyes
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #52 - April 15, 2014, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on April 15, 2014, 10:11 PM
    No, no os. She's just afraid of being paralyzed, that's all. What we really need is better care and support for people with gradual onset paralysis so that they ENJOY being paralyzed and won't want to die. Smiley

    Oh, silly me. Break out the party drugz then. Keep the buggers happy.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #53 - April 15, 2014, 10:24 PM
    Found it: I should be able to say the type of death I want

    Can rip the vid if it's not available outside of Oz, but the transcript is pretty good.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #54 - April 15, 2014, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 07:38 PM
    Am I the only one here who thinks that people should not be helped to die by state sponsorship at the first point of asking and for whatever reason that they feel like?

     I'd be hard pressed to find anyone in support of having the right to die on one's own terms who doesn't also understand the need for diligent assessment and screening.

    That's not really your argument, though. Or rather, that's not what people are objecting to. From what I can gather, you seem to want to limit the option to a very narrow set of circumstances that only includes severe pain and suffering. This is what people are calling into question. This is where your argument is weak.

    Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 07:38 PM
    Just think of all the people who have attempted suicide and failed, and then came out of or came to terms with their depression/problems to live happy fulfilling lives? I bet they are glad now that they were not successful in their attempt and that they wish that someone that had talked them out of their rather terminal decisions.

    These are the kind of cases that would be screened for in any ethical and competent system. Rash decisions that could be turned around with a modicum of human interaction or cooling period. And that number is significantly diminished when you take away the people who engineered their suicide attempt so that someone could intervene, as a cry for help rather than a genuine and fully committed choice to end their own life. If a person really, really wants to end their own life, they will do so and there would be no way to stop them. At least those who are physically capable.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #55 - April 16, 2014, 05:25 AM
    "The new age is an age if cutting corners" *kills self*

    Nice.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #56 - April 17, 2014, 06:35 PM
    Sheesh  jump on a guy much? Look I have serious issues with state assisted suicide. On one side physical conditions are looked at under a certain light yet mental conditions are not. I hate the idea that people with mental conditions are denied due to their conditions and given a fist full of daily drugs. Drugs they have to take for the rest of their lives with side effects they also have to deal with. The state is all too happy with keeping these people hooked on a pill form of life support. A small number of my family suffers from sever cases of depression and psychotic episodes. Some of the drugs they take create such a state of mind that the person I once knew is dead. They lose interest in social activities, friends, family ,etc. My own mother is on a fist full of drugs and has lost all motivation. Once she had a network of friends and a social life for at least 3 days of the week. Now she only goes out if someone bothers to call her. I clean her home more than she does. I mean she has become a different person from the one before her medication was prescribed. If she is forced to live in a drug induced state for the rest of her life why can we not throw a fist full of medications at those with physical conditions. Why not drug them up as much as some of my family members are.


    If a state is willing to sponsor assisted suicide it should support all kinds of cases not just physical. If someone has a mental condition which is treated they should still be able to apply if they wish to end their life not just certain people.
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #57 - April 17, 2014, 07:12 PM
    Sure, bogart, anyone with a debilitating condition that reduces quality of life to an unacceptable level should be able to apply. Mental illness in and of itself should not mean automatic denial. But anyone who applies, no matter what reason, should be evaluated for their mental capacity to make sound decisions regarding their own life.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #58 - April 17, 2014, 10:38 PM
    Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 07:43 PM
    You see a man on a cliff edge and he looks like he is going to jump, you ask him why, he says he is depressed/grieving/lost his home.

    Do you try to talk him out of it or just let him jump, and perhaps advise him to jump from higher up so that he will be killed instantly? Or perhaps tell him "oh just go to this clinic and they will do it for you"

    I guess your answer would be to try to talk him out of it.

    This is the point I am making.


    I'll just talk to him. I'm not really sure its my place to try and stop him though.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
     Reply #59 - April 17, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 15, 2014, 07:46 PM
    What if the man is in his 80s, has had a good full life, doesn't like life now and has made the rational decision in sound mind that his time has come, knowing that he would be unhappy if he continues to live?


    What if he's in his 40s and all of the above?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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