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 Topic: Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?

 (Read 8616 times)
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  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     OP - March 30, 2014, 09:47 AM

    Hi Everyone.
    I am an anthropology student from OZ studying a book about British Muslims and looking for a bit of feedback from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

    The book is Visibly Muslim by Emma Tarlo, who is a non-Muslim anthropologist. If you haven’t read the book, it is basically about dress preferences of mainly second generation female Muslims and the reaction of the general British public and of other Muslim women to their dress. As you can imagine, there is a great deal of discussion of hijabs, jilbabs, niquabs etc. and of British xenophobia. The only voices heard are those of the Muslim women whom the author interviewed. Parents and husbands are occasionally mentioned and sometimes described but never interviewed. There is no discussion of the culture of the parents’ country of origin. Non-Muslim women who marry Muslim men are described; women who convert to Islam are also described; but there is no discussion of how these changes could affect the women in the future.
    All the reviews of the book seem to be positive. My question is this. Is a study made entirely from a feminine viewpoint complete, given the omissions referred to above?
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #1 - March 30, 2014, 09:58 AM

    Welcome!

    Short answer: no.

    You're going to almost completely miss the quieter set of women who feel they absolutely must dress a particular way because of the men. Even if a woman wholeheartedly believed that her modest apparel was her own choice, it might be the case that her father/husband/mother/whoever would also tell you that, even if she didn't choose the dress, they would require it from her.

    Is that the sort of thing you were asking?
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #2 - March 30, 2014, 10:01 AM

    womba., what a name.,   Hello womba.,  sound like "Simbah"  from that lion king..  I don't understand that question   Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?

    1). Do You mean,    Do Muslim men get influenced by how Muslim women dress?

    2). Or do you mean, Muslim men influence their  women folks "How they dress when they go out?

    3). Or did you mean In Muslim  societies, some Islamic  baboons   force Muslim women how to dress up?

    Well without me understanding your question properly., it is hard to answer and welcome to cemb..

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #3 - March 30, 2014, 10:18 AM

    I think it's a tough question. I can just mention my own experience, and that is that even though a Muslim woman may dress in a certain way out of free choice, once she chooses not to wear it, other people, in particular the men in her family, might have something to say about it. I was free to wear the hijab and niqab, which I did out of free will, but once I told my husband that I wanted to take it off it was out of the question.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #4 - March 30, 2014, 11:01 AM

    I didnt quite understand the question but i'd say yes it is definately the men who keep up the dress code for women within the family, ofcourse the women in the communities do too, i am an english convert and i was coerced into wearing the hijab after my shahada, i never ever planned on wearing one, but i was made to feel guilty about showing my body and hair,  both the men and women turned a bit nasty about my dress, but id say within the family the males are the major influence and force, i know of women second, third generation who want to and do try to change their fashion and are met with violence by their fathers or other male relatives, even i tried to wear trousers a few times, baggy ones and i found nobody would speak to me ?  the rules are a bit lax these days in the muslim communities in the uk i noticed girls wear heavy makeup, a couple of years ago, when i was a muslim, we could not wear one teeny amount as it meant your face was unclean for prayer, i was forced to wash it off at ablutions..   
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #5 - March 30, 2014, 11:04 AM

    I was told to wear cloak (abaya/long black dress) and the headscarf by my hub when I got married, he was well aware I never wore either before marriage, he even said he would like me to cover my face (which did not happen)

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #6 - March 30, 2014, 12:34 PM

    Some women in my country choose hijab or niqab of their own accord, and NO PRESSURE from families. It's more like pressure from Hajj, which seems to "change" the minds of those who perform it. My family never forces me to dress modestly but they sometimes ask me to do so for fear of the society. Nowadays even I dress modestly because of the male and female baboons of the streets (sorry Yeez stole your phrase). One woman actually pulled down my stole in the bus and a guy shouted behind me, "Somebody rape her!" Thing is hijab or niqab isn't mandatory but covering the bosom is.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #7 - March 30, 2014, 12:37 PM

    ^OmW did they really scream that? that is so horrible

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #8 - March 30, 2014, 12:38 PM

    Bangladeshi men are such perverts. Just let your stole fly from your bosom and they will react as if you are topless!
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #9 - March 30, 2014, 12:54 PM

    One woman actually pulled down my stole in the bus and a guy shouted behind me, "Somebody rape her!" Thing is hijab or niqab isn't mandatory but covering the bosom is.

     no

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #10 - March 30, 2014, 01:00 PM

    The fuck did I read?!

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #11 - March 30, 2014, 01:46 PM

    The logical outcome of islamic "modesty" culture.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #12 - March 30, 2014, 01:48 PM

    And yet they love to talk about how rape seems more prevalent in Western countries.  Roll Eyes
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #13 - March 30, 2014, 02:12 PM

    .............he even said he would like me to cover my face (which did not happen) ................

    well some of you are luckier than this lady..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mItkrmEGwzs

    If i was there some one would have lost their teeth..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #14 - March 30, 2014, 02:15 PM

    .............  One woman actually pulled down my stole in the bus and a guy shouted behind me, "Somebody rape her!" ..............


    That MUST HAVE BEEN ONE UGLY LOOKING  Islam brain washed baboon happened to be a female  with no self confidence in her and her looks.  And that is one stupid  reason why these women want to cover their ugly faces

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #15 - March 30, 2014, 02:18 PM

    what the..... finmad

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #16 - March 30, 2014, 02:26 PM


    If i was there some one would have lost their teeth..


    And I would have loved to see it.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #17 - March 31, 2014, 10:18 AM

    Wow! Here I was wondering whether anyone would respond. I am a little overwhelmed. I gather from the responses opinions are mixed about men’s influence on Muslim women’s dress.

    I posted this question following a suggestion I made to the tutorial group which was rebuffed. I wondered whether this was a matter entirely of the women’s personal beliefs and clothes choices, as would be the case perhaps with a group of mainstream British women, or whether there were more forces at play than the book suggests. That is why I mentioned that the author describes women marrying into and converting to Islam without dealing with the implications for the women of these changes. As if it were, for instance, changing from Protestant to Catholic.

    I rather thought that the women could be caught between mainstream British ideas of conformity to normal women’s dress and the views of conservative Muslims around them. The book deals extensively with the interaction with mainstream society – its attitudes to burquas for instance – whereas assuming their dress choices were largely their own and not subject to conservative pressures.

    One woman interviewed is the comedienne, Shazia Mirza, whose parents are from Pakistan. I gather she makes a living out of poking fun at Islam. She is the only woman to speak openly of the conservative Muslim influences she had to deal with (the only one brave enough to deal with this sensitive subject?) –

    ‘My father was endlessly concerned with what his relatives would think about everything’, ‘I hated the restrictions as a child. I wanted to be like Madonna’

    There is a chapter devoted to the 2002 controversy over ‘13yo Shabina Begum, a British Muslim girl of Bengali origin, who arrived at Denbeigh High School in Luton where she was a pupil, dressed not in the school uniform but a jilbab and hijab.’ She was accompanied by two young men, one her brother, who insisted that these were the only garments which met her religious requirements. She was told by the school to go home and return in the school uniform. She went home but, rather than wear the school uniform, took up a legal challenge which ended 2 years later in the High Court. Shabina’s case (or the case of those around her) was supported by Hizb ut-Tahrir.

    The author describes a range of attitudes among Muslims to the case, among which were those who thought it was ‘yet another case of prejudice mounting against Islam’ to those who thought she should wear the school uniform. When she spoke to  a group of women wearing jilbabs and niquabs she was surprised at the response – “How far can we go?” and “We can’t unscramble the world to get what we want. We have to move ourselves a bit.”

    The attitude of these women seems very reasonable. But it is nowhere to be heard when Hizb ut-Tahrir demands, on behalf of Islam, that the school give in on the school uniform. If they do think the Muslim demands have gone too far, they are not brave enough to say it in public. Are the women making their own choices or are they responding to conservative influences such as Hizb ut-Tahrir?

    Those are just my ideas but I am just an outsider. Please put me in my place if I have it all wrong. That’s certainly what my tutor thinks.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #18 - March 31, 2014, 10:47 AM

    I'm not sure exactly what your tutor thinks is wrong in your reasoning? This is how I see it, from what I know and from my own experience both as a very devout Muslim not wearing the Muslim attire, a devout Muslim wearing full coverage, an apostate wearing full coverage and now finally an apostate free to dress however she wants.

    First of all, the Muslim attire for women is seen as an obligation within Muslim community in general. This is because theologically, if a woman does not cover everything except her face and hands (and in some cases the feet are exempted), she is sinning and there are specific religious texts describing horrific tortures that are exclusively for women making "wanton display". Already with this is mind, the question whether or not a Muslim woman wears the dress "out of free will" becomes complicated. How free can you be when you genuinely believe that you are threatened by an all-powerful supreme being if you do not conform to the norms of your religion/faith?

    Secondly, as a Muslim dealing and socializing with the Muslim community, the pressure to wear Muslim dress is always present. Some experience it more than others, depending on how conservative the particular group is that you "belong" to or with whom you socialize. I come from a western European country and when I became a Muslim the question of hijab and niqab became immediately important. Sometimes I got brash and even insolent comments and "hints" and "advise" from my "sisters" about wearing hijab. "Where's your hijab, sister?" were rhetorical questions that were very common. Then you have all the looks and hints from your "brothers" of their disapproval. And I haven't even begun talking about relatives and family if you are born into a Muslim family. A lot of women here have talked about how hijab just became a "natural choice" made by the parents once they reached a certain age, after that it was inconceivable to take it off.

    Thirdly, even if you haven't experienced that much of a pressure about your clothing but started wearing it "our of belief", if you would later on chose to change it (for example stop wearing the niqab, or start wearing regular skirts instead of abayas etc) or take it off completely, you would definitely face reaction from the community without a doubt. How many times have I encountered "sisters" who have done exactly that, and they talked about how people started gossiping and confronting her about her "loss of iman".

    And this is where I come to another important note, and that is that a Muslim woman's worth, modesty, faith, devotion, all of it, lays in the way she dresses. If you see women in long dresses and hijabs all in black, a lot of Muslim (ESPECIALLY men I can tell you) go on like "Oh mashaallah, what sisters, may allah reward you". It gives the women status, they climb up the ladder of desirability on the marriage market as well as socially. She is a "good" Muslim and people would want to befriend her.

    So yes, of course there are a lot of women who "chose" to wear the Muslim attire. I "chose" to wear it our of belief and faith (if I didn't, allah would torture me in hell. Of course I put it on), even though I did meet some pressure about my way of dressing. Even after putting on the niqab, when I decided to stop wearing gloves, I got comments about that choice. Hadn't I been a "I do whatever I want, fuck you" kind of person, I would have been pressured into putting them on again as I've seen a lot of women do. And they do that because they get scared of "doing something wrong". When I started wearing colorful hijabs and niqab, wearing colors that would be provocative for some (like red, purple and so on), I also received "advise" about my choices. It was not modest enough, you see. I drew attention to myself from men.

    Finally, the most important thing I think often gets lost in these kind of discussions, and that is even if we assume that the woman was totally free to take her decision to cover herself, maybe even her face, the interesting question is what would the reactions be if she chose to take it off and would she even be allowed to do so? I wore the niqab for almost 7 years out of belief, but the day I said to my now ex-husband "I don't want to wear in anymore", it was out of the question that I could make that decision by myself. To take off the full hijab was even more taboo, that was not even on the map to discuss. And I would have been totally ostracized by my friends and community if I would have done that while still being a Muslim wanting to have contact with them.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #19 - March 31, 2014, 11:10 AM

    ^Spot on.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #20 - March 31, 2014, 12:47 PM

    " you see women in long dresses and hijabs all in black, a lot of Muslim (ESPECIALLY men I can tell you) go on like "Oh mashaallah, what sisters, may allah reward you". It gives the women status, they climb up the ladder of desirability on the marriage market as well as socially. She is a "good" Muslim and people would want to befriend her."

    My phone really doesn't want to do the right quote format, but, pay close attention to this. ^

    You're never going to get a Muslimah to really come out and say it, but, deep down, some women who cover have this in mind. If you cover, you will be praised for it. You will be admired. You will be regarded as good wife material, not only by more men but more mothers of eligible sons. You will have more options.

    It's one of the little undercurrents of choosing to dress modestly that you really will never hear about, because, when we were wearing modest clothing and hijab, we get to have our cake and eat it too, in a way. We got respect and positive reinforcement from covering (and more men thinking of us as a potential wife), and at the same time we could proudly say that our attire was specifically designed to show our efforts to keep men from desiring us/to showcase our minds/ simple act of pride/piety. 

    I've been on both sides. I've felt societal pressure to look good in the western sense, and then I felt it again in the Islamic sense, for basically the same reasons, plus or minus a God. But you're rarely going to find a woman who feels this way who will admit that, for all the hijab`s purpose of hiding your allure, Muslimahs can still fall into the exact same trap as the non-Muslim western woman who feels pressured to look pretty.

    It's always going to be, in my opinion, up to the woman to dress however she likes, and there definitely are women who cover of their own volition and for the precise reasons they claim to. But everything you see Cornflower saying needs to be taken into account if you want to really understand all of the factors that may influence a woman in a Muslim family or in a Muslim community. The answers you are told are often not the whole truths, whether or not the woman knows it herself (as was the case in Cornflower`s story).
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #21 - April 01, 2014, 06:49 PM

    I think sometimes it can be hard to tell when a Muslim woman's choice on how to dress ends and family or community pressure begins.

    From my own experiences, I'm a Muslim convert, but with Muslim parents.  My mum's a convert too and my dad (Was my stepdad but later adopted me) is a born Muslim.  My parents had me start wearing hijab when I was 10.  My family insisted on it, but at the same time I thought it was pleasing Allah so I didn't put up a fight about it.  Then my dad started getting much stricter, especially when he started taking more of an interest in Islam.  He started to insist that I wear jilbab as well as hijab.  I'm still wearing it and I know my dad would never allow me to stop.  So in my case, it's definitely the case that a Muslim man is influencing how I dress.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #22 - April 01, 2014, 08:44 PM

    Thankyou Cornflower, Lua and Safi so much for your contributions. It’s an important part of the story which seems to be largely overlooked in the book and your stories are very graphic.

    There are over 500 students in my unit and I will do my best to encourage them to read what you have written.

    Another issue which is completely ignored in the book is Islam’s attitude to apostasy, leaving the faith. Of course Islamic Law is not state law in Britain, but Muslims all over the world still use the same ancient books which say, apparently multiple times, that apostates should be killed. Honour killings are relatively rare, I know, but so are shark attacks here in Australia, yet everyone who swims in the ocean is very conscious of the danger. Is it a value which conservative British Muslims hold that those who leave the faith have done something so terrible that they deserve to be killed, whether or not the threat is carried out?  Or is this a value which applies to conservative Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia, but can be ignored in liberal Britain?
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #23 - April 01, 2014, 08:54 PM

    ^ All I did was regurgitate something Cornflower wrote, but you're welcome. Wink

    As for your new question, hopefully Cornflower is around to answer this one, too. I think she was just complaining not too long ago about Francois-Cerrah trying to dismiss capital punishments with the excuse of living in Britain. Grin

    But short answer: some Muslims will try to tell you that there is not a death penalty for apostasy (only apostasy coupled with fighting/threatening the community), and then others who tell you that apostates must be killed, so it depends on what interpretation of Islam you're working with. But there's a lot of punishments prescribed in Islam that are not going to be carried out in Britain, of course (cutting off hands, etc), but it doesn't change what many Muslims will support if reminded that their faith endorses it.

    "Conservative" Muslims will almost always at least try to rationalize or defend any punishment, no matter how ostensibly cruel, if they believe it is prescribed by God, as everything in the Quran is (and arguably the sunnah). And that's a lot of the trouble, in my opinion.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #24 - April 01, 2014, 09:18 PM

    Imagine if someone said that they believed Muslims / Jews / black people deserve to be killed, but not right now. Only in an 'ideal state'. That is exactly what they're saying about Exmuslims and apostates. Its as sinister and wicked as that. That's what it boils down to.

    It all adds up to the atmospherics of fear and abuse that those who dissent face. It is oppressive and menacing, coercive and an inhumane, ethically degenerate belief.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #25 - April 01, 2014, 10:29 PM

    I am not in Britain, in case your focus is that specific.
    I have to point out that in Islam, women are not expected to be independent. They are required to have a Mahram or a Wali, someone who oversees their affairs and is expected to provide for them.
    This does not create an environment of free choice. Muslim women are expected to be dependent and obedient, traditionally. If they are covered, they are fulfilling traditional expectations, and you could reasonably be suspicious of their freedom to choose their clothing.
    If you consider the crippling mental and emotional effects of being infantilized, you can again be reasonably suspicious of their freedom to choose their clothing.
    Every Muslim woman I have been close to, save one, has expected and tried to avoid violence from males in her household, but I understand this is not necessarily universal.
    I, myself, was told what to wear, and how to wear it, by my Mahrams. There are endless amounts of fiqh on this, right down to how thick your sock should be, and how your shoes should not make noise. It is an exact science, and if you are looking for the laws on women and clothing, it never ends until she is completely out of sight and hearing. How can you not be suspicious of a woman's right to choose, in light of the laws of her god?
    The pressure is enormous. If she disregards the laws of the community's god, what does that make her? Who will marry her, will her father trust her to go to university? Does she have a choice, if she wants a future in her community?
    That said, there is more diversity among Muslim communities than I have been exposed to. Others might feel differently. But this is what I saw.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #26 - April 01, 2014, 10:50 PM

    Imagine if someone said that they believed Muslims / Jews / black people deserve to be killed, but not right now. Only in an 'ideal state'. That is exactly what they're saying about Exmuslims and apostates. Its as sinister and wicked as that. That's what it boils down to.

    It all adds up to the atmospherics of fear and abuse that those who dissent face. It is oppressive and menacing, coercive and an inhumane, ethically degenerate belief.


    Another argument I have heard is that it was necessary at the time the edict was given. So that excuses it. Because morality is affected by culture, time, and geography. The conclusion: Sometimes it is morally necessary to kill apostates/Jews/nonmuslims, but not right now.

    The last argument is that the world was like that back then. Because society was not advanced, the world was a wild and unpredictable place, and there was no other solution that could be thought of. So the edict is no longer valid, now that there are other options and humans are so much more capable of being civilized. The conclusion: If you do find yourself in a place lacking infrastructure and a clearly visible government presence, then your only option could again be the execution of apostates/Jews/nonmuslims.

    Any argument I have ever heard that does not condemn it, is an argument for it.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women?s dress?
     Reply #27 - April 02, 2014, 01:03 AM

    Hi you guys. Sitting here on my phone 6 in the morning not able to sleep, so here are my morning ramblings Smiley

    When it comes to apsostasy, the traditional view of the scholars of (sunni, I would not dare include shia because honestly I haven't studied it) Islam is that they unanimously agee that all apostates who show their disbelief either in action or speech are to be killed after having been "advised" and given three days to reconsider and repent. However, recently, due to human morality and ethics evolving as well as "Islamic thought" being influenced from outside, this view has been questioned. As lua and three mentioned, there are a variety of opinions and interpetations. I myself spent considerable time trying to reconcile this with my own values but reached the conclusion that it's a dead end. This is because within all school of thoughts within (sunni) Islam, one if the most basic principles in usool al fiqh is that if the "ummah" ever unanimously agrees upon a view, that view becomes true and valid for all time. In order to re-interpret  or change, you would either have to toss aside nearly 1400 years of Islamic theology and jurisprudence, or take on a revolution to change 1400 years of tradition in order to be able to fit in this new approach. Both entailing basically the same thing in the end. And in my opinion, both as intelectually dishonest and (the latter) impossible.

    And I totally agree, there can be no "excuses". Muslims have to take a clear stand on these issues and not try to package them in shiny paper and straps in order to make it look better than it is. Tariq Ramadan tried avoiding the question (and thus not having to be clear on whether or not he rejects Islam or modern moral values, still being able to argue that he is "culturally European") when he said that stoning should be put "on hold". Francious-Cerrah did the same thing when answering "that's not relevan, we live in Britain" when asked a simple yes or no question regarding stoning. You really can't have the cake and eat it, it's disshonest and frankly morally distasteful.

    As billy said,  we shouldn't kill all Jews. Only if we attain a perfect Reich like Hitler did can we do it, there has to be certain "conditions" fulfilled in order for it to work. It's the same logic, with the same moral ramifications. This needs to stop.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #28 - April 02, 2014, 10:53 AM

    Thanks for those responses on apostasy. I was not concerned so much with the theological basis of punishment for apostasy so much as what conservative followers believe. Does Britain have a more liberal ‘brand’ of Islam which generally regards Islamic Law views on apostasy fundamentalist and out-of-touch or is it still the belief of a high proportion of practising Muslims. Not that they would demand execution, but at least believe apostasy so bad and dishonourable that they would force the apostate to become an outcast. If that were the case, the difference between Saudi and Britain would be one of degree rather than kind.

    Because when I raise here issues such as views on apostasy in Islam, they will ask what type of Islam I am talking about – fundamentalist like Saudi Arabia or more liberal like Britain? – that there is a range of ‘types’ of Islam from Saudi through Indonesia to Western countries like Britain. Certainly the connection between Islamic Law and state law is different. But is the religion basically the same with the difference only a matter of the ability to enforce Islamic Law. I don’t know whether the analogy works, but is it like the caged tiger and the wild tiger? Both tigers are basically the same, but one is constrained and so more benign. Can you see what I am trying to get at? 
  • Do Muslim men influence Muslim women’s dress?
     Reply #29 - April 02, 2014, 11:35 AM

    ^ It's kind of one of those situations where you won't get the clean answer you're looking for, I'm afraid. The answer does strictly vary depending on the interpretation.

    A Muslim may consider himself a conservative one, and yet insist to you that there is no death penalty for apostasy. Not because it is "out-of-touch," but because he will argue that that's not what the Quran really says and attack the hadith that suggest otherwise. This is the sort of problem you will find when you're looking for general answers like this.

    To get to the actual answer you're looking for, I guess you kind of have to go through a tree:

    Does the Muslim believe that apostasy is supposed to be punished by death according to Islam?

    If no--->not relevant to your question (but as you might have gathered, many of us are of the opinion that the "no" reasons are flimsy)
    If yes ---> They endorse it. Are they "conservative" or "liberal?"

    If "conservative" ----> Will likely not only support it but give you a bunch of reasons as to why this is the best thing to do with apostates.
    If "liberal" ---> Will likely only support it when their back is against the wall and they've run out of apologist nonsense to recite (arbitrary "conditions" being my favorite), but they will support it, because of the nature of the Quran. It is the actual word of God. If you say that something inside of it isn't true or isn't best, you're criticizing God himself.

    Living inside the "cage" of Britain won't do much of anything to change that, when it all comes down to it, they will agree with it and support it, whether reluctantly or not. It doesn't much matter if you're living in Britain or Saudi Arabia on this front. I know Saudis who strongly dislike the capital punishment practices of their country. The common denominator with the supporters is not country of residence or origin. It is which Islam they subscribe to, with specific attention paid to the apostasy laws.

    But the cage does make it easy for Western Muslims to forget these things.  It is too easy to distance ourselves from that, and it becomes, like Cerrah tried to say, an irrelevant part of being a Muslim in Britain (or America, in my case). We don't have to really see the consequence of our actions. We don't have to look anyone in the eye when they're about to be executed in Saudi Arabia for apostasy. We don't even have to acknowledge them.

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