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Theme Changer

 Topic: Subjective Obsession

 (Read 2817 times)
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  • Subjective Obsession
     OP - February 10, 2014, 02:52 AM

    Hello all!

    This is my first post on the forum. I will copy/paste my post that I made on AtheistForums.com detailing the situation I find myself in. I decided to posted here to get an ex-Muslim insight. Here it is:

    "I was born and raised in the United States in a moderate Muslim family. I was never really religious per se but I held the core beliefs, and mostly paid the rest lip service. Upon entering my first year of University, I came down with an onset of existential depression. After a long and arduous journey, I have come to the conclusion that one cannot fully grasp the concept of a 4.54 Billion Year Old earth and 13.1 Billion year old Universe while simultaneously holding (non-cherry picked) religious beliefs without suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance. I've gone from being desperate enough to believe the hysterical rubbish qu'ran miracle claims to finding an amassed interest in natural sciences such as biological evolution, geology, etc. I am no longer able to believe the absurdities within scripture, whose claimed author is an uber galactic cosmic creator of infinite intelligence. If I were to read scripture from such an amazing being, I would expect my mind to explode from absolute awesomeness. With said scripture containing strong hints of geocentricism, ridiculous nonsense such as 'shooting stars being made to be shot at Jinns (evil spirits) who seek to spy on gods holy council in the atmosphere' and things of this nature, I don't know how one can take such a deity, or any deity for that matter, seriously at all. Apart from scripture, this entity makes no sense in that it demands worship and endless attention while not needing it whilst punishing you for eternity if you don't, and already knowing the future exactly as it will take place but still tests us, etc. These thoughts have run through my mind, and the true miracle of religions is that anyone can actually believe it at all. If this makes any sense, I consider myself an on the fence atheist, about 95% there. I say 95% because I see faith indoctrination as a sort of a mental octopus-like being, with innumerable tentacles that latch onto your brain and will do anything to keep you from freeing your brain. Every phase I've gone through thus far I see as a removal of such a tentacle. I feel as though I'm nearing a complete sense of free thought and free mind. But who knows, for some it takes years; for me, it has only been an upwards of 7 months.

    Now that I've established a bit of an intro and how I came to atheism, I'll get down to what I wanted to discuss. I have an OCD for coincidences in that my mind likes to attribute significance or simply extra attention to mere coincidental events that naturally occur and are completely rationally explicable. I searched this on the Internet and I've seen it called "Magical Thinking" or Apophenia. An example of coincidences I would notice, this being a real one I experienced, are as follows; I'm driving and listening to music on the radio. The singer says on the radio, for example, the number 70. The car in front of me at that exact moment has a license plate that has the number 70 on it. These are interesting little coincidences that I tend to not make much of. However, when unlikely coincidences like these come about that have to do with religion, my mind goes into an irrational overdrive.

    Keeping the above in mind, here's the situation I find myself in: so I was browsing through a social network and went into the profile of an athlete. Looking through recent pictures, I clicked on one of him and his son (note that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion). In the comments section, I run into an extremely random 30 week old comment that reads "Why do not you accept Islam??" With it's glorious grammatical errors and all. I just looked at it. Like "Wut?". Something completely unrelated to religion of any sort gets a random comment like that, and I happen to open it up and look at it. So now, the unlikelihood of such a thing occurring has had me overthinking...'Is this some sort of sign?' And things like that...Yes, I know this is bizarre and irrational, but I guess that's what indoctrination does to a person. I've kind of reasoned as to why such a person would comment; the athlete is a mixed martial arts athlete and a lot of fighters come from Caucasian regions (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.) There is a large amount of Islamic fanaticism (Note the threats to the Russian Olympics for example) and a lot of youth ascribe to semi-radicalism in that they see it as more of a community/cult/gang. I'm just postulating that he's one of these and wants to bring one of his favorite athletes to the "dark side". And that's about as close to rationalizing it as I can get.

    I'd like to ask if any of you have ever come across something like this? Especially in relation with another religion? Any input would be great!

    I decided to come here for community and support in my free thinking journey. Islam is very keen on apostasy and none of my family would even imagine I was thinking such things, so I hardly find a place to speak out.

    I apologize for this "TL;DR" material and hopefully I don't look like an ABSOLUTE LOONEY sharing this but if anyone cares enough to read through and discuss it, I'd appreciate it!"
    I suspect I am highly delusional, but I cant seem to get my brain to work around this thought and say "It's just a coincidence!". Thank you all!
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #1 - February 10, 2014, 03:06 AM

    Welcome.  parrot
    I am also in the USA.
    I am one of those slow to detach tentacles, I did not have a fast track detachment as you have had, mine took years. I have also been prey to magical thinking and delusion. I think it is common when you are living an irrational life.
    Your mind has been thinking a certain way for a long time. Your family and perhaps your friends shared the same worldview, the same type of thinking. Give yourself some time on the coincidences and any other internal conflicts, you are undergoing major changes.
    You are not alone.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #2 - February 10, 2014, 03:49 AM

    I have an OCD for coincidences in that my mind likes to attribute significance or simply extra attention to mere coincidental events that naturally occur and are completely rationally explicable. I searched this on the Internet and I've seen it called "Magical Thinking" or Apophenia. An example of coincidences I would notice, this being a real one I experienced, are as follows; I'm driving and listening to music on the radio. The singer says on the radio, for example, the number 70. The car in front of me at that exact moment has a license plate that has the number 70 on it. These are interesting little coincidences that I tend to not make much of. However, when unlikely coincidences like these come about that have to do with religion, my mind goes into an irrational overdrive.

    Keeping the above in mind, here's the situation I find myself in: so I was browsing through a social network and went into the profile of an athlete. Looking through recent pictures, I clicked on one of him and his son (note that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion). In the comments section, I run into an extremely random 30 week old comment that reads "Why do not you accept Islam??" With it's glorious grammatical errors and all. I just looked at it. Like "Wut?". Something completely unrelated to religion of any sort gets a random comment like that, and I happen to open it up and look at it. So now, the unlikelihood of such a thing occurring has had me overthinking...'Is this some sort of sign?' And things like that...Yes, I know this is bizarre and irrational, but I guess that's what indoctrination does to a person. I've kind of reasoned as to why such a person would comment; the athlete is a mixed martial arts athlete and a lot of fighters come from Caucasian regions (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.) There is a large amount of Islamic fanaticism (Note the threats to the Russian Olympics for example) and a lot of youth ascribe to semi-radicalism in that they see it as more of a community/cult/gang. I'm just postulating that he's one of these and wants to bring one of his favorite athletes to the "dark side". And that's about as close to rationalizing it as I can get.

    I'd like to ask if any of you have ever come across something like this? Especially in relation with another religion? Any input would be great!




    My backstory is completely different to yours but I can relate to this 'religious OCD' you speak of as I suffer from it too. I'm a European Christian, still a believer but flirting with the idea of atheism/irreligious theism. I don't consider the Bible to be the work of God, not a creationist, think a lot of teachings and ideas held in scripture are incredibly flawed, etc. I would probably be branded as a heretic according to mainstream Christian thought.

    I'm posting at an ungodly hour from where I am and am too tired to articulate my thoughts/experiences/possible explanations etc. regarding what you flagged, so you'll have to forgive me, but I'll get back to you tomorrow (schedule permitting).

    But what I will say now is that you aren't alone. I have encountered similar things (relating to different religions, not just Islam or Christianity). I know that feeling of (in hindsight, unjustified) cognitive dissonance setting in, which clouds your judgment and capacity to look at it rationally. In fact reading that part of your post was quite refreshing, because it's the first time I've read something that sounds so similar to what I've experienced and how I interpreted it at the time.

    Are we both delusional for thinking this way? I'd say it's pretty likely.
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #3 - February 10, 2014, 05:07 AM

    Welcome.  parrot
    I am also in the USA.
    I am one of those slow to detach tentacles, I did not have a fast track detachment as you have had, mine took years. I have also been prey to magical thinking and delusion. I think it is common when you are living an irrational life.
    Your mind has been thinking a certain way for a long time. Your family and perhaps your friends shared the same worldview, the same type of thinking. Give yourself some time on the coincidences and any other internal conflicts, you are undergoing major changes.
    You are not alone.

    Thank you for your reply Smiley It's good to hear from someone who has experienced such things. I agree it will definitely take time to clear up irrational and magical thinking since a person grows up so accustomed to it.
    But what I will say now is that you aren't alone. I have encountered similar things (relating to different religions, not just Islam or Christianity). I know that feeling of (in hindsight, unjustified) cognitive dissonance setting in, which clouds your judgment and capacity to look at it rationally. In fact reading that part of your post was quite refreshing, because it's the first time I've read something that sounds so similar to what I've experienced and how I interpreted it at the time.

    Are we both delusional for thinking this way? I'd say it's pretty likely.

    Thanks for your reply! I'm glad you found my post relatable! These things are very taxing on the mind so it becomes very helpful when you can relate with others and know your not the only experiencing it. I look forward to your follow up post Smiley
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #4 - February 10, 2014, 02:07 PM

    I have an OCD for coincidences in that my mind likes to attribute significance or simply extra attention to mere coincidental events that naturally occur and are completely rationally explicable. I searched this on the Internet and I've seen it called "Magical Thinking" or Apophenia. An example of coincidences I would notice, this being a real one I experienced, are as follows; I'm driving and listening to music on the radio. The singer says on the radio, for example, the number 70. The car in front of me at that exact moment has a license plate that has the number 70 on it. These are interesting little coincidences that I tend to not make much of. However, when unlikely coincidences like these come about that have to do with religion, my mind goes into an irrational overdrive.

    Keeping the above in mind, here's the situation I find myself in: so I was browsing through a social network and went into the profile of an athlete. Looking through recent pictures, I clicked on one of him and his son (note that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion). In the comments section, I run into an extremely random 30 week old comment that reads "Why do not you accept Islam??" With it's glorious grammatical errors and all. I just looked at it. Like "Wut?". Something completely unrelated to religion of any sort gets a random comment like that, and I happen to open it up and look at it. So now, the unlikelihood of such a thing occurring has had me overthinking...'Is this some sort of sign?' And things like that...Yes, I know this is bizarre and irrational, but I guess that's what indoctrination does to a person. I've kind of reasoned as to why such a person would comment; the athlete is a mixed martial arts athlete and a lot of fighters come from Caucasian regions (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc.) There is a large amount of Islamic fanaticism (Note the threats to the Russian Olympics for example) and a lot of youth ascribe to semi-radicalism in that they see it as more of a community/cult/gang. I'm just postulating that he's one of these and wants to bring one of his favorite athletes to the "dark side". And that's about as close to rationalizing it as I can get.

    I'd like to ask if any of you have ever come across something like this? Especially in relation with another religion? Any input would be great!

    ...

    Thanks for your reply! I'm glad you found my post relatable! These things are very taxing on the mind so it becomes very helpful when you can relate with others and know your not the only experiencing it. I look forward to your follow up post Smiley


    No worries man. I'll try to be as honest as possible with myself when I type this, in case the fear of coming across as a complete lunatic makes me omit some key information.

    The first thing you touched upon (hearing, thinking or seeing a certain thing simultanesouly) happens to me from time to time. I used to find it quite strange until I realised that view itself is derived from the fact that I overrate how common it seems to be. I don't know what this phenomenon is called, but it seems somewhat similar to the concept of 'ideas of reference' (not only creating patterns that don't exist, but thinking those patterns were somehow 'created' for you specifically).

    I apply this same idea to religious pareidolia. I'll give you an example - a few weeks ago I was sitting in my room, reading something on my laptop. All 3 of my flatmates were watching TV shows, either in their bedrooms or in the living room. The living room is further away from my bedroom, however one of my flatemate's doors right next to mine, at a right angle. I could hear what was happening in whatever he was watching, but it wasn't overly loud or disruptive.

    All of a sudden, from outside my door, I hear a sort of high pitched buzzing - the kind you sometimes get in your ear or when around certain machines. Only, it was quite dramatic and exaggerated, like the sort of sound you hear in Call of Duty when a flashbang goes off next to you. I say 'outside my door' because my door was closed, so I couldn't say with 100% certainty that it was coming from my flatemate's room.

    Now, here's where I start to sound delusional. About a week or two prior to this, I saw something mentioned in a hadith where Mo describes a 'bell' noise he hears which usually indicates he's about to receive a revelation. Through some kind of mental gymnastics, I had a moment of panic where I assumed this high-pitched, textbook hollywood sound effect that in all likelihood did come from my flatmate's bedroom, was in fact some kind of 'sign'.

    In hindsight, the latter explanation was a completely insane and irrational conclusion to jump to, given that the former was several orders of magnitude more feasible and chalking it up as a 'sign' is incredibly vague and a testament to my own ignorance more than anything else. But under that cloak of panic it didn't seem like an irrational conclusion to reach at the time. If God is going to 'test' me in that way, why give me such a vague sign, upon which my belief is contingent upon believing my own bullshit, flawed way of thinking and gullibility?

    My memory is a little hazy and this is the most recent example I can think of. It's worth mentioning that, if I wasn't currently suffering a mini existential crisis stemming from my irrational doubts about what I know and believe, and hadn't been researching the apologist arguments regarding Islam and weighing them up against the skeptic counterarguments in the weeks prior to that night, then I wouldn't have considered the event to even be peculiar or some kind of indication of the supernatural.

    I hope this makes sense.  I imagine you're either nodding in agreement right now or shaking your head in disbelief at how I'm not posting this from a mental institution.
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #5 - February 10, 2014, 03:27 PM

    Thank you for sharing your experience! And I am definitely nodding in agreement. If you consider yourself mental institution material then I must be as well because I have conjured in my mind that the creator of the universe has contacted me via a poorly written Instagram comment with the truth of the universe. Now that's just a huge stretch. It sounds very very stupid when put in that way. But still, the unlikelihood of seeing it is what wreaks havoc on my conscience. I try to break it apart in that "If I'm actually being communicated with, then that makes me a prophet...which is not possible, therefore a coincidence."  Or also that "My free will/commenters free will must have been altered to ultimately have this 'sign' revealed to me, so I don't have free will therefore I'm not being tested." Another thing is, I cannot allow my self to consider something as ABSOLUTE truth based on SUBJECTIVE criteria. Especially if it goes against established FACT, which includes evolution(particularly human evolution) and that scripture is highly elementary and NOT the work of any supreme being. Things like that kind of make a peace of mind, even if temporary.

    P.S. I used to be a big time Call of a Duty player so I know exactly what you mean Wink
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #6 - February 10, 2014, 05:50 PM

    Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful place for gaining knoweldge, getting support, cool emoticons and having fun. Here have a pig as a cute pet or delicious meal (or so I have heard) piggy!
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #7 - February 10, 2014, 05:56 PM

    I'd like to ask if any of you have ever come across something like this? Especially in relation with another religion? Any input would be great!


    I have this weird tendency or something like that about Christianity. I can't seem to take my eyes off churches, whether beautiful, normal or ugly. I am dying to finish the Bible and love the way Christians worship. I also respect Jesus Christ to a certain extent. But I am still an atheist and not a Christian Smiley.
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #8 - February 10, 2014, 06:46 PM

    You don't have to believe Jesus was god made flesh to see he had some good teachings.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #9 - February 11, 2014, 10:59 PM

    Thank you for sharing your experience! And I am definitely nodding in agreement. If you consider yourself mental institution material then I must be as well because I have conjured in my mind that the creator of the universe has contacted me via a poorly written Instagram comment with the truth of the universe. Now that's just a huge stretch. It sounds very very stupid when put in that way. But still, the unlikelihood of seeing it is what wreaks havoc on my conscience. I try to break it apart in that "If I'm actually being communicated with, then that makes me a prophet...which is not possible, therefore a coincidence."  Or also that "My free will/commenters free will must have been altered to ultimately have this 'sign' revealed to me, so I don't have free will therefore I'm not being tested." Another thing is, I cannot allow my self to consider something as ABSOLUTE truth based on SUBJECTIVE criteria. Especially if it goes against established FACT, which includes evolution(particularly human evolution) and that scripture is highly elementary and NOT the work of any supreme being. Things like that kind of make a peace of mind, even if temporary.

    P.S. I used to be a big time Call of a Duty player so I know exactly what you mean Wink



    This might sound strange but I actually felt quite happy when I read your OP. It's quite consoling to know that I'm not alone in thinking this way (that sounds a bit arrogant; I never doubted there were other people who felt the same way due to similar experiences, but I never knew if I would ever 'communicate' like this with someone who did). So thank you for taking the time to write all that out, despite possibly fearing that nobody would understand Smiley If it turns out we really are both completely insane, I hope we'd get put together in the same asylum.

    Although you come from a Muslim background and upbringing (ergo, different to mine, although my upbringing was very secular) the chances are you're better versed in the 'signs' thing (with regards to how Muslims believe they manifest, if that makes sense), but I get where you're coming from. I take solace in the fact that it's only really a 'sign' of confirmation bias - if I weren't preoccupied with such thoughts relating to religion, I would think absolutely nothing of it.

    Regarding bolded, I completely agree. Why create a universe whose phenomena is explainable by its own consistent logic and goes against much of what is written in scripture, give me the propensity towards skepticism, and then send me some 'signs' which I am far, far more likely (read, certain) to chalk up to being the result of natural occurrences when looking at it rationally rather than emotionally?
  • Subjective Obsession
     Reply #10 - February 11, 2014, 11:19 PM

    It is indeed a sign of confirmation bias. My mind continues to wrangle, wrestle and rationalize with the fact that this was actually a mere coincidence and not the order of a divine being. Other people who saw that same comment as well paid no attention to it, although it was there. It's only because I have the propensity and inclination of religion that I even considered the notion. I was actually reading through the Quran when you posted your reply (needless to say it got boring FAST, too much repetition) and have found that "signs" actually don't manifest at all. It reads:

    2:118 And those who have no knowledge say: Why doth not Allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us ? Even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. Their hearts are all alike. We have made clear the revelations for people who are sure.

    I interpret this as the only sign a person can have is the "clear" revelation of scripture. People who ask for signs are stupid and lack knowledge. People who ask for the signs now are like the ones who asked for signs before.
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