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Theme Changer

 Topic: Religious clothing in schools

 (Read 23745 times)
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  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #120 - April 19, 2014, 05:07 PM

    @Cornflower
    I agree that little girls being dressed up in restrictive, uncomfortable clothing that hampers their movement and fine motor skills is wrong, absolutely wrong, and state intervention is warranted in such cases. I’m not sure if specific legislation is required but certainly social workers, teachers, CPS, etc should be informed that children being dressed in clothing that is excessively restrictive and prevents safe, easy and free movement is not acceptable; it’s an OHS risk and I’m surprised a country like Sweden actually tolerates 8-year-olds in niqabs, considering their overall stance on child abuse and children’s welfare.

    All I’m saying is that there is a world of difference between a little girl in a hijab (which I still find objectionable) and an 8-year-old in a niqab. I don’t think young girls should be banned from wearing hijabs. If swimming and gym classes are compulsory in any given school, I see no reason why parents should be able to circumvent that rule. I don’t believe in any special concessions being granted to the religious. I just think a blanket headscarf ban is excessive and unnecessary.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #121 - April 19, 2014, 05:17 PM

    Fair enough. I can agree with everything you say, except that last bit.
    Sunlight is needed for Vitamin D synthesis and blocking the skin prevents this so it is a health hazard.  I wouldn't call it a complete exaggeration as there is a strong correlation with hijab wearing and Vitamin D deficiency, which I'm sure you have noticed.

    Simply sitting in your backyard uncovered for brief periods and taking daily vitamin D supplements is enough to alleviate whatever risk exists. That’s straight from the horse’s mouth; my mother’s GP told her that. But, yes, you're right; it is, essentially, a health hazard, though I'd argue it's a fairly mild one.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #122 - April 19, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Polio vaccinations
    I wasn't vaccination for Polio as a child because live virus vaccination were and for the most part still are the type available in the USofA. Haven't very had Polio but at some point was exposed. Likely while living in Indonesia. Anyhow when I was tested for immunity for a job. I came up positive for immune.  Not that i would advocate that for everyone. I also have a couple friends that are some what older then my self that lived when polio was a very large problem in the USofA. They were treated with a controversial method and suffer no residual affect. My also not be for everyone

    Thing is medicine is not absolute science. There are no guaranteed. Yes it does a lot of good stuff and we need it. We need the research. There however could be a lot of good research if it was not profit driven.

    As to anyones comments about my stand that parent has the right to make choices for their own children. Rumour position therefore some future moment when relative or the school teaches your child some point of you think is definitelynot in their best interest. Perhaps it has to with nationalistic war issues or ecologically damaging industrial methods. Things that could really treat other human lifes as valueless. I have no idea what is important to you but suppose some takes the to teach your child that point of view is stupidity. Try to remember parents in your estimated opinion don't have ability or the right to make decisions for their children.





  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #123 - April 19, 2014, 08:18 PM

    As to anyones comments about my stand that parent has the right to make choices for their own children. Rumour position therefore some future moment when relative or the school teaches your child some point of you think is definitelynot in their best interest. Perhaps it has to with nationalistic war issues or ecologically damaging industrial methods. Things that could really treat other human lifes as valueless. I have no idea what is important to you but suppose some takes the to teach your child that point of view is stupidity. Try to remember parents in your estimated opinion don't have ability or the right to make decisions for their children.


    Well, firstly, live virus vaccines still have an incredibly low risk if used properly in patients without faulty immune systems.

    I am sorry, but I think you're not really addressing our qualms still. We're not talking about war issues or industrial methods. I personally think that some people I know teach their kids loads of garbage, and I never try to step in and stop them. We're strictly speaking about making decisions for kids that have been proven scientifically to be in their worst interest as far as their health or, worse, their survival goes.

    You can teach your kids to believe whatever you think they need to believe, and you're probably not going to get much of a complaint out of me. But if you tell me that your kid can't have a lifesaving procedure like a blood transfusion or that you're bringing your unvaccinated kids to my kids' daycare, you're probably going to get an earful.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #124 - April 19, 2014, 10:14 PM

    .......Thing is medicine is not absolute science. There are no guaranteed. Yes it does a lot of good stuff and we need it. We need the research..........

    Hello  Ussarn  interesting posts from you in this thread ., Glad to read you ad welcome to CEMB..  you have a point there., and you are right medicine is not absolute science,  but what is absolute science? There is always room to improve in every field of sciences and Medical/biological/biochemical sciences are no exception to that rule.
    Quote
    .................There however could be a lot of good research if it was not profit driven.........

    Well that may be true but if profits drive research and advances  Science fields for the betterment of public without  transferring TAX PAYERS MONEY in to their homes and pockets ., that is fine with me.  Off course there are certain rule and limits that one should keep in mind and funding authorities should keep an eye  on what people are doing in Laboratories  and why they are doing it..

    But profit driven research is OK with me.  Think about simple Data storage devices how far they come along since their invention as floppy disks.  Without researchers/industries  making profits we would have still swapping  floppy drives instead of gigabyte/terabyte flash drives..   anyways welcome to CEMB..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #125 - April 19, 2014, 10:45 PM

    Hi Yeezevee,
    Thanks for the welcome. But  I'm Lynna.  I factory reset my phone and it will not let me sign into CEMB.  Keeps telling not the right password. I just haven't gotten around to writing the Mod with the whole story because well that's a long story. So I'm being someone else for awhile.

    Yes I didn't  want to discredit or disregard medicine altogether. However just make the point there are a lot of choice out there that are good that are mainstream. There is quackary as while. But there are good choices that  may not be as well known or promoted. One thing I was taught as the definition of quackary is the insistence that this certain treatment is the one and only way to treat a condition and nothing else will work. So with that thought in mind there are always options. ALWAYS.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #126 - April 19, 2014, 11:15 PM


    Yes I didn't  want to discredit or disregard medicine altogether. However just make the point there are a lot of choice out there that are good that are mainstream. There is quackary as while. But there are good choices that  may not be as well known or promoted. One thing I was taught as the definition of quackary is the insistence that this certain treatment is the one and only way to treat a condition and nothing else will work. So with that thought in mind there are always options. ALWAYS.


    Yes, always, although sometimes that comes down to the option of getting a treatment or dying.

    I'm with you to a degree, Lynna; for example, I do know that we're facing a new ordeal with having been irresponsible with antibiotics. However, I don't then make the leap to say that someone with a life-threatening bacterial infection should reconsider using antibiotics.

    If what you're saying is that we need to start being more responsible and informed patients, I totally agree. But it doesn't sound like that's what you're really arguing for...so I can't agree with you entirely.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #127 - April 19, 2014, 11:31 PM

    For me it's actually quite simple. In extreme situations, if an adult needs something and refuses on the grounds of religious belief, that's their choice. If they want to have a lower quality of life or die for the sake of belief, it's up to them. If on the other hand an adult wants a minor to suffer because of the adult's religious belief, it's a different matter. The simple fact of the matter is that in the western world we do limit religious rights to an extent. A christian cannot murder a witch. A jew cannot murder a neighbour for working on a Sunday. A muslim cannot murder an ex-muslim for leaving the faith.

    I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you Lynna. If a minor needs a blood transfusion or they will likely die but the parents won't allow it, if I were a doctor I'd take them to court. If it's an adult it's a different matter, but as a doctor that patient is in my care and I have to do what's best for my patient.

    Once they become an adult, I'll accept their choice.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #128 - April 20, 2014, 01:35 AM

    Hi Lau
    Perhaps it is you that has proven your point.
    We could be talking about any subject and parent should and do have the right to have the final say about. They just have know how to go about it and have their plan set up.
    The exception is in the case of real and actual child abuse and / or endangering.
    As a nurse I'm a mandatory reporter of child abuse and endangerment. As such yearly to maintain my employment I have to take a class and test on child abuse. (also elderly abuse anxious domestic violence) So as much as you may hate my opinion if  but if you come to where I work or shop where I shop or walk down the street I live on it may be my opinion and training the makes a dam big difference in yours and your child's life.

    But like I've already said it strikes me funny how people (maybe not you but here) get so bent out of shape upset about a grandparents talking to their child about how to pray  but are so dam willing to let a strange tell aother parent how they should dress their child.
    Didn't that strike you as somehow odd?
    There is no danger in a child wearing hijab or niqab. All the problems have been addressed as having a solution. If you think they haven't been make a clearly numbered list.

    If you are concerned about the blood transfusion issue and Jehovah's Witnesses there are Supreme Court case in their favor in the USofA.  Also similar in high courts in other nations. There is plenty of evidence that it good practice to not use blood. I already said why I didn't want t have a conversation about it here. In case you missed that it is because I am not open to any change of mind. I will explain why things are the way they are if I think you to hear but if you are on a roll that will pretty much end the conversation. Because in the end it is about choices that everyone wants and if you are to take my rights away you are not a just person and you don't want to have a reasonable conversation.

    If your worried about unvaccinated children at your childs daycare take a deep breath and think. Do the vaccines really work? If they do what do me and my child have to fear from unvaccinated children or people?  If you really believe in your vaccines the answer is a no brainer. So. perhaps you really don't believe the vaccines work or you'r just on an emotional propaganda feed rampage?



    So do you want to have a reasonable conversation?










  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #129 - April 20, 2014, 01:57 AM

    Hi Lau
    Perhaps it is you that has proven your point.
    We could be talking about any subject and parent should and do have the right to have the final say about. They just have know how to go about it and have their plan set up.
    The exception is in the case of real and actual child abuse and / or endangering.
    As a nurse I'm a mandatory reporter of child abuse and endangerment. As such yearly to maintain my employment I have to take a class and test on child abuse. (also elderly abuse anxious domestic violence) So as much as you may hate my opinion if  but if you come to where I work or shop where I shop or walk down the street I live on it may be my opinion and training the makes a dam big difference in yours and your child's life.


    I don’t really know why you’re telling me about child abuse and your qualifications to recognize it, so I hope you don’t need a response out of me for this one? I mean, that’s good, though. That you do that.


    But like I've already said it strikes me funny how people (maybe not you but here) get so bent out of shape upset about a grandparents talking to their child about how to pray  but are so dam willing to let a strange tell aother parent how they should dress their child.
    Didn't that strike you as somehow odd? There is no danger in a child wearing hijab or niqab. All the problems have been addressed as having a solution. If you think they haven't been make a clearly numbered list.

    I’ve heard some pretty good arguments that people have made on here as to why wearing restrictive clothing as a child can have some downsides, but I wasn’t the one talking about them, so I guess I’m not going to get involved. If they ever do that study I proposed, though, I may form a strong opinion one way or the other.

    If you are concerned about the blood transfusion issue and Jehovah's Witnesses there are Supreme Court case in their favor in the USofA.  Also similar in high courts in other nations. There is plenty of evidence that it good practice to not use blood. I already said why I didn't want t have a conversation about it here. In case you missed that it is because I am not open to any change of mind. I will explain why things are the way they are if I think you to hear but if you are on a roll that will pretty much end the conversation. Because in the end it is about choices that everyone wants and if you are to take my rights away you are not a just person and you don't want to have a reasonable conversation.


    It’s not about wanting to take your rights away. It’s more like disagreeing on what your rights are. Can you agree with me that if you are told that your child is going to die without a procedure—and I don’t care whether it is a blood transfusion or something else—it is in the best interest for the child that he has the procedure?

    If you want to tell me that blood transfusions are never medically necessary, I invite you to show me evidence for that, since you say there’s a lot of it. We can definitely discuss that part of it, I’m open to hearing your evidence. Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye: whether or not the blood transfusion can be necessary. But whether or not it is your right to decide if your child lives or dies is not negotiable for me. Sorry.

    If your worried about unvaccinated children at your childs daycare take a deep breath and think. Do the vaccines really work? If they do what do me and my child have to fear from unvaccinated children or people?  If you really believe in your vaccines the answer is a no brainer. So. perhaps you really don't believe the vaccines work or you'r just on an emotional propaganda feed rampage?


    Lynna, come on now. You're a real life nurse, right? You should definitely know by now that there are some kids who just cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. Allergies, immune disorders, whatever. They just cannot be vaccinated.

    Do you know how these children are protected, then? They are protected by the fact that the rest of the kids are vaccinated. It takes approximately 95% of the population to be vaccinated against a pathogen to create sufficient population immunity.

    If my kid, for a legitimate medical reason, cannot be a recipient of a vaccine, I am sure not going to be happy about the latest craze of people deciding not to vaccinate their kids who don’t have the allergy or the immune disorder because they’ve bought into pseudoscience that was long-debunked by the medical community. These people are precisely why we've seen a return of diseases that had been eradicated in my country for many years.
     
    So do you want to have a reasonable conversation?


    I would love to, but I’ve been reading your comments on this thread, and it seems that you are throwing out the accusation of being emotional quite indiscriminately. Why assume that I have no scientific reason for my statements? Relax.

    You say you’re a medical professional. That’s cool, I’m a biologist. Let’s bring our facts and check our emotions and religions at the door. Let’s do this, Lynna.

  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #130 - April 20, 2014, 02:17 AM

    Well I wasn't trying to say other people should dictate how you raise your child, sorry if it came out that way I tried using the scientology example because I didn't want you o feel I was picking on you with the blood transfusion thing.

    This is the best way I can say it. If there is a child who needs medical treatment, and without that medical treatment his/her life will be significantly poorer when they could be perfectly healthy, it's a o brainer for me. While I understand your point about different options, that's not what I'm asking.

    Let's say there's a child with cancer in it's early stages. The parents believe that having the cancer removed is wrong, that they need to have faith and god will provide. You seriously wouldn't support a doctor taking he parents to court to get the kid treaded because you know if you don't the cancer will spread and the kid will die?

    You know, if I found a lost tribe that blinded every second born child because their scripture said "Every second child must walk in darkness" I would have no problem condemning them for it.

    Just in case I'm coming across the wrong way, I'm not trying to bully you or anything, I'm genuinely curious if there's a limit to religious tolerance, namely when it causes harm hence extreme examples on my part.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #131 - April 20, 2014, 04:40 AM

    If you are concerned about the blood transfusion issue and Jehovah's Witnesses there are Supreme Court case in their favor in the USofA.  Also similar in high courts in other nations.


    Hey Lynna (do you prefer Ussarn now?  wacko),

    I couldn't sleep, so I decided to look for these supreme court cases you mentioned. Interestingly, I found them, and I don't think they're what you were hoping for. Are there any that were missed in this article? http://adc.bmj.com/content/90/7/715.full

    If you don't want to read it all, here are some excerpts regarding the United States in particular:

    Quote
    In the USA, the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment16 is relied on by parents when defending their right to refuse blood on their children’s behalf. This defence is rarely successful:17 the freedom to believe is absolute; the right to act on that belief is not.18 In American courts there is no doubt: the child’s welfare is paramount. [...]
    adults cannot choose to be responsible for the death of their children and, declaring no interest in Biblical interpretation, the court stated clearly that, if parental religious beliefs placed a child’s life in danger then the state could intervene to protect the child.23 [...]
    The next important case extended court authorised transfusion to the possible, rather than the definite, need for blood.28 Although the child did not require blood imminently, the court contended that the New York State Children’s Bill of Rights made it clear that parents no longer had the right to deny children required medical care and that “under no circumstances, with or without due process, with or without religious sanction, may they deprive him of his life”.29 Unusually, the judge commented on JWs’ beliefs29 and clarified that when a child’s right to live and parental religious beliefs collide, the child’s welfare is paramount.[...]

    The Supreme Court was clear in its upholding of the decision in Prince12 explaining, “the right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose…the child…to ill health or death”.32

    The majority (with the exception of one33) of subsequent cases34–41 have maintained the trend, reiterating the views of earlier cases and emphasising three main points:

        The child’s interests and those of the state outweigh parental rights to refuse medical treatment42

        Parental rights do not give parents life and death authority over their children12,42

        Parents do not have an absolute right to refuse medical treatment for their children based on their religious beliefs.12,43


    So unless I'm missing something, it's not your right in my country, anyway, or really in any of the other Western countries mentioned in that article, so I hope we can agree that I'm not in support of removing your rights. If you can point me towards some court cases that did work in your favor, though, I'd be happy to read up on them.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #132 - April 20, 2014, 05:00 AM

    So Quod,
    So as a biologist you may know might know more quickly then I do. Isn't  there about 300 things that could be checked when matching blood? Isn't general practice to check about 8 to 10? As someone  who knows how the body reacts to the stress of foreign substances do think would really  be a good idea to introduce additional stress on a body already stressed by surgery or injury?
    How much "extra" blood can the human spleen release in an emergency?
    What exactly is the human bodies capability to produce red blood cells when they're needed? Have you considered what can be given to people before planned surgeries or after accidents to help the body produce it's own blood?
    But you have not told me yet what these extreme circumstances that need blood transfusions are. Perhaps you are only influenced by the propaganda that Jehovah's Witnesses want their children to die. Oh yes you repeatedly say your not. But want do you really know of the quality of life of a great majority of Witness children. I ask about a great majority because you can find "idiots" in any group of people. So if you know one idiot Witness or someone new who hasn't found any balance  yet (or might never find balance no matter what they do) that doesn't necessarily count.

    Just because I hear that Wiccans have babes just to sacrifice doesn't mean I think all of them do. Just a few that are in prison and some of their friends that aren't in custody yet.  Nor do I think that all Wiccans seldom change their clothes because one of the nurse I worked with really only had 2 uniforms and they weren't similar so she could switch them and have 4. And she wore the same gray hoodie every day. You know every time I saw children they were wearing gray hoodies. Hmmm...No No the mind must not wonder to the absurd.  No really on a serious true note we work very well together.  She was a hard worker and honest. Told me the meanings of the swear words and slang the offenders used. They were all mad at her for that. .. But I'm wondering.  
     
    Do you practice your biologist skills a teacher? For some reason I thought you were a teacher. I had written another post that I accidentally deleted in which I asked you about that if you had ever had any students  who were Witnesses.  Because I thought you were a teacher.













    ..
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #133 - April 20, 2014, 05:31 AM

    Wait...I'm confused. Grin Are you talking to me? I don't think Quod is a biologist...He might be a teacher, though.  wacko

    Anyway, it's true that blood transfusions do have some risks, and yet all of the questions you're asking are completely irrelevant distractions, and so is whatever you're saying about Wiccans. Please try to understand this one point: I have nothing against your religion. I don't care. But if your child happens to be one of the (thankfully) few JW kids that needs a lifesaving blood transfusion or whatever else it is that you might dislike according to your religion, I will not hesitate one bit to remind you that you don't get to decide if your child lives or dies. You've somehow kept dodging the question, so I'm going to try to ask it again: if you were told that your child is going to die without a blood transfusion by actual, real medical doctors whom you trusted, are you still saying it is your right to refuse?

    Like all medical procedures applied correctly, there is going to be a risk/benefit analysis done for each particular case. You have made it sound in this thread like people go out and get recreational blood transfusions, or blood transfusions for no apparent reason. Even if I were to accept that that were true, it doesn't change what I'm talking about, which is the cases when it is a child and when it is life-saving for the child or his best chance at a healthy life.

    Here's the thing. There have been cases of people dying from refusing blood transfusions. Now, almost all the ones that I came across were adults who decided that they wanted to roll the dice, and they wound up dying. In the United States, there were thankfully interventions on behalf of the kids whose parents were brought to court. I can't stress enough to you that, even though I think it's kind of a shame that the decision to refuse a transfusion may cost an adult their life, I support their right to choose. Are we still on the same page?

    You ask me to give you situations where receiving blood or blood transfusions are necessary to prolong life. Sure thing: traumatic surgeries, traumatic injuries, excessive bleeding following childbirth or basically anything where there's a risk of bleeding out, pre-op procedures for those undergoing general anesthesia with sickle-cell anemia/related therapies, people with certain cancers, and that's just the cases I know off the top of my head.

    In the case where actual doctors have decided that a child is in desperate need of a medical procedure, it has already been determined by people who know far better that the risks are small compared to the benefits to that child, and that it is necessary for their welfare.

    Please read my last post, or at least skim it, so that you can tell me if I'm missing something, since I genuinely would like to know. I really did try to do my research on the matter, but these were the only examples I found. And, if you have nothing to contribute to my findings, I will reiterate that it is simply not your right to deny your child that procedure for religious reasons in the United States. Deny it for yourself if you want, but your life is the only one you get to gamble with.

    P.S.
    I got into this talking about the vaccination. Did you give up on the vaccine argument? Do you understand why what you said was incorrect and why your failure to vaccinate your kids can put other kids at risk besides just your own? Out of curiosity, is it not liked in your religion to have vaccinations, or were you just of that opinion/playing devil's advocate? Or maybe you really were talking to Quod and you haven't gotten around to responding to me yet, in which case, my apologies. wacko

  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #134 - April 20, 2014, 05:48 AM

    To any gods that might exist out there: please never let me or any of my family and friends be treated by Lynna. Amen.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #135 - April 20, 2014, 05:54 AM

    Thing is medicine is not absolute science. There are no guaranteed. Yes it does a lot of good stuff and we need it. We need the research. There however could be a lot of good research if it was not profit driven.


    There is no such thing as absolute science. And medical treatments have to undergo rather rigorous tests including multiple trials on animals and humans, as well as approval by many health organizations.

    Quote
    As to anyones comments about my stand that parent has the right to make choices for their own children. Rumour position therefore some future moment when relative or the school teaches your child some point of you think is definitelynot in their best interest. Perhaps it has to with nationalistic war issues or ecologically damaging industrial methods. Things that could really treat other human lifes as valueless. I have no idea what is important to you but suppose some takes the to teach your child that point of view is stupidity.Try to remember parents in your estimated opinion don't have ability or the right to make decisions for their children.

    If the decision indirectly harms the child, then I'm pretty sure by law, you have no right to make that decision. I'm sure you love your children. Don't you think it would be better to let your children be taken care of by trained medical professionals? It would be in your children's interest.

    Quote
    If your worried about unvaccinated children at your childs daycare take a deep breath and think. Do the vaccines really work? If they do what do me and my child have to fear from unvaccinated children or people?  If you really believe in your vaccines the answer is a no brainer. So. perhaps you really don't believe the vaccines work or you'r just on an emotional propaganda feed rampage?

    Ever since the introduction of the polio vaccine, the disease has almost been eradicated in many parts of the world, so yes vaccines work. Also, you do realize there is no cure for polio and vaccination is the best method to prevent the diseases prevalence?
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #136 - April 20, 2014, 06:51 AM

    To Lau
    I'll likely change back to Lynna.  However names are names I use in real life so either way I see it as me. I' m just...IDK.  Have to write the Mod and explain the whole thing.

    Your  article is an interpretation of court cases based on the assumption that Witness parent are choosing no treatment or to let their child die. As I have said in numerous ways that is not what is  happening or is not what should be happening.

    Just wondering do you think having a blood transfusion caused the girls with leukemia to continue living or have a better quality of life?
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #137 - April 20, 2014, 06:59 AM

    Oh sorry I did put you two together.
    Head a massive headache and way past my bed time but can't sleep. But I keep thinking I had something  I wanted to say mixed up.
    I have check my setting so new post come in on the top of the first page.

    Salamet malam.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #138 - April 20, 2014, 10:10 AM

    Why do JW not allow blood transfusions anyway ?       

    X
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #139 - April 20, 2014, 11:07 AM

    Because blood is magic, apparently. Some guys wrote it down thousands of years ago. And, as we all know, stuff that people write down is always true.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #140 - April 20, 2014, 11:15 AM

    i am presuming they allow transplants though...  I will google it in a min..  : )

  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #141 - April 20, 2014, 12:29 PM

    To Lau
    Your  article is an interpretation of court cases based on the assumption that Witness parent are choosing no treatment or to let their child die. As I have said in numerous ways that is not what is  happening or is not what should be happening.

    Actually, no, there's some among them that overruled the parents' decision when it was just a case of the wellness of the child and not imminent survival. But anyway, that is exactly what we're all talking about. I think maybe that's where you and I are having the most trouble. I am not talking about anything at all where the child is not in danger. I am only talking about the cases where you really would be putting the child in danger by refusing that medical procedure for him. Anyway, you said that the court cases rule in the favor of the JW parents refusing treatment for their kids, and that that's been almost unanimously false; you have no right to do that in this country. You can only refuse for yourself.

    I know you've said that that's not happening or shouldn't be happening, and here is where I suppose we disagree the most. You say there is a lot of evidence that you never need a blood transfusion. I just gave you plenty of instances where you would need it, and mentioned that there have been actual deaths from refusing blood transfusions before. Like you've been doing whenever I make a point that you cannot argue with, you've only ignored it, and this is all you had to say:
    Just wondering do you think having a blood transfusion caused the girls with leukemia to continue living or have a better quality of life?


    In some cases, yes. Leukemia can be a very aggressive illness, or it can be incredibly mild. I've known people with both; someone close to us died only months after he got it as a teenager despite every available treatment being used aggressively. Not every treatment of leukemia works the same for every person, every case, every type of leukemia. But in cases where it was determined that leukemia a blood transfusion (Grin)was the only or the best option, or even a necessary supplemental option for the primary treatment, I will emphatically tell you that yes, it was in the best interest of the patient, and, thankfully, it is not within your legal rights to deny it to your kid.

    I have a feeling you might try bringing up the myth that leukemia can be caused by blood transfusions. Sorry if I'm getting presumptuous, but, if you are, let me just say ahead of time that people who suggest that clearly have little to no concept of the human body, and there has never been a bit of evidence to suggest that anyone's leukemia was caused by a blood transfusion. It is just a myth.

    I'm really not trying to be a jerk or pick on you here, Lynna. But the facts just simply are not on your side here. I get that you don't like blood transfusions for religious reasons, and that's fine. Don't like them for religious reasons. Be proud that you don't like them for religious reasons. Just don't try to twist science to make it somehow sound like the reason you don't like blood transfusions is because science and medicine has proven that they are always harmful and unnecessary.

    That's just not the case, no matter how much you want it to be, and I can tell just from our brief chat about vaccines that your qualifications as a nurse did not really teach you much about the science behind your craft. No offense, really, but it just obviously hasn't. So stick with the religious angle. If you tell me you don't want a blood transfusion because of religious reasons, I'm not going to give you any trouble. That's not demonstrably false like everything else you've said.

    Our only problem is when it comes down to the children. You simply do not get to play games with their life and health. I understand that it's hard for you because of your religious background, but these are kids, Lynna, and for all you know they're going to grow up to be apostates just like us and would neither understand nor appreciate your efforts to deny them treatment, and, while adult Witnesses might be ready to be martyrs for the cause, you cannot and should not make martyrs out of your children.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #142 - April 20, 2014, 12:53 PM

    I thought everyone did frivolous blood transfusions for their children. Mine get theirs right after their haircuts.

    Seriously, who does that?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #143 - April 20, 2014, 02:50 PM

    Quote
    if you were told that your child is going to die without a blood transfusion by actual, real medical doctors whom you trusted, are you still saying it is your right to refuse?

    This a straightforward question. Can we get a straightforward answer, instead of walls of text full of red herrings and weaselling?
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #144 - April 20, 2014, 10:53 PM

    ^That's why I tried to give other examples that amounted to the same thing, which weren't addressed and for some reason I apparently think JW parents want to kill their children...not sure where that came from.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #145 - April 21, 2014, 05:29 AM

    Hi Lau,
    You mentioned your presumptuousNess that and your arrogance is very typical and doesn't bother me in the least.
    No I've never even hear of a rumor that blood transfusions cause leukemia  but I don't spent time on conspiracy websites. I have had the misfortune to care for patients who have hemolyticemia which is caused by blood transfusions  and some kinds of poisons. The patients I cared for weren't poisoned. I have also on doctors orders mediated numerous patients to mask minor symptoms of the body having difficulty tolerating the interdiction of blood that is not an ideal match.

    Before this conversation even started I explained why I wasn't interested in having this conversation.
    1) The intolerance and  selfrighteous attitude  of people who will demand their right to want ever while at the same time inflicting their will on someone else.
    For WHAT REASON! ?! Because that child might grow up to be an apostate like you. LOL. No by the highest percent  not. So our children can show they know more about mercy and tolerance then you have the ability to show. So they show they can have a Christ like spirit answer can forgive the people who assaulted them unjustly just like Jesus forgave the people who assault and ill treated him.
    Three's comment was classic. But I am sure see's herself as a kind and reasonable  person.
    2) Did anyone of you go to the Jehovah's Witnesses website?  I'm at a touch of a disadvantage as the websites copywrite does not allow me to copy and paste to another site or to post a link on another.site. But one article doesn't  prove anything..
    3) You keep on posting that Jehovah's Witnesses  want to kill their children. However have posted not one single piece of evidence that it has ever happen. BUT keep saying I need to defend myself.  SAY WHAT!?!  If some crazy person posted  that all Atheists sacrifice kidnapped children every full moon. I'd be right in line saying don't be stupid you can't make wiping prejudice statements like that whatever. Just stop..
    4) Didn't I post a definition sorts for of quandary? I thought I did but maybe not. The is all options in medical treatment. Anyone who claims they have the one and only treatment that will work for a condition has almost without a doubt proves themself a quack. Now a patient can look at all the choices and say of those choice, I have determined I will accept these. This isn't  a dictionary definition just something I was taught in as a guide line when thinking about how some treatments are promoted.
    So for you all to insist that there are occasions when a blood transfusions is the only way would assure me your promoting a quack treatment. But I know know enough about medicine to know you're wrong. If you've got time to type and match a unit of blood there is time to get the patient t a hyperbarichamper. But anyhow  long before oxygenaction is a problem You'll have to worry about shock  form volume  depletion. LR could even work.

    If at some time you actually want to have a conversation like a reasonable  person let me know.
    Because I'm sure if I used some reasoning like "Your child might want to grow up to be a Jehovah's Witness  so we can't let you make any of their medical  treatment.decision  now". You would be sure to point out that there was something rather illogical about that.

    I hope you can see my point.

    But right now I'm still sick Im working on another headache  and it once again past my bedtime and I have to be up in 5 hour to work again.







  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #146 - April 21, 2014, 05:43 AM

    Would you discourage people from giving blood?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #147 - April 21, 2014, 06:22 AM

    ^That's why I tried to give other examples that amounted to the same thing, which weren't addressed and for some reason I apparently think JW parents want to kill their children...not sure where that came from.


    Did you feel that saying the "early stages of cancer" was being specific?

    I would see that as neither specific or extreme.

    What kind of cancer and why on earth would blood need to be give randomly (?) at the early stages of cancer.

    You know I hard that only 1 out of every 10,0000 research dollars spend on cancer is spent on childhood cancer. I wonder if that's really  true.

    I don't know that make about chilhood cancer. I know quite a bit about diet to treat cancer. When my brother in law was dying of cancer.  The doctors gave him thirty tosixtydays to life I know I was his nurse.  Once the doctor ever referred to him as dead meat when talking to me. My sister and I started researchinges alternative diets and such. We found a doctor to write the prescriptions for vitamins and supplements. Started the diet. I gave him a full body massage every third day he lived nine months. Of that time he was only bed ridden the last eight days.  The doctors offered 30 to 60 days in the hospital receiving  chemotherapy.  He got June to February at home with his children.
    I have a many more cancer storiesthat include that diet.

    Anyhow it's now way past my bed time and I don't  feel well.
     
    Try to be more specific  with a case that might actually involve a blood issue.














  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #148 - April 21, 2014, 06:26 AM

    Would you discourage people from giving blood?


    Can't think of any reason why I'd be involved in that conversation.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #149 - April 21, 2014, 06:34 AM

    Is it important for people to give blood?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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