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 Topic: Religious clothing in schools

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  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #60 - April 15, 2014, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2014, 10:20 PM
    Yup. Whenever I see a woman in niqab she always looks like the ghost of a woman.


    or rather a shadow.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #61 - April 15, 2014, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 15, 2014, 01:48 PM
    Brush off religious indoctrination?

    Perhaps you should take a closer look at how bond and determined you are to secularly indoctrinate this group of school children your talking about.

    You thinking that going to the beach to swim or doing gymnastics is more important then a parents right to raise their child the way they see fit does not make it so.

    In the exact area where I live there is only one Muslim family. The wife wears hijab. However the two little girls dress as ...gee...what can I say here...skinny jeans, cropped tops, short skirts, almost sleazy. Even when I go to the city where there a a few Muslims out and about it's often about the same picture. So much so that I've found myself wonder how will they go from what they are wearing to covering up wearing baggy clothes. That however is the parents problem, responsibility and right to do the very best thing they know how to do for their child. The child when they are able  to take care of their self then they are responsible for tvheir own clhoices.

    What is it you would allow the school to teach your child take was in direct opposition to what held as correct?

    Perhaps you don't feel strongly enough about anything to think it really matters.








    So what if some parents denied their child....oohh.... I dunno, let's say a life-saving blood transfusion. Or is that 'secular indoctrination'?
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #62 - April 15, 2014, 09:32 PM
     Cheesy
    osmanthus waits for Lynna to display massive concern for the health of the child
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #63 - April 15, 2014, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 15, 2014, 01:48 PM
    You thinking that going to the beach to swim or doing gymnastics is more important then a parents right to raise their child the way they see fit does not make it so.


    Yes absolutely, physical exercise IS more important than what parents misguidedly think is their 'right' to raise their children the way 'they see fit'. That is why kids have to go to school. To get a well rounded education which we don't leave to the parents who may not be qualified.

    Its healthy and builds character amongst many other positive effects.

    Do you think that bad parents can just keep their kids off school and deny them a fair chance in life, because 'evolution is evil' or 'exercise is against our religion'?
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #64 - April 16, 2014, 05:19 AM
    So Cornflower you don't think it's possible to be secularly indoctrinated. What narrow mindedness. Because what you have to say you claim is based on human rights and that makes it so?
    You cry a sad story about a poor child who can't go to the beach and swim because their parent makes them wear such and such clothing. What sad emotional appeal you make. You know what their are people are born live a normal happy childhood grow up fine and die of old age without ever seeing an ocean or beach or learning to swim.  And guess what it has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with where they live in the world and opinion about the need to swim. So are you in a gosh day fired up human rights protest frame of mind to force these people into changing their ways? Or is it only when you want to sound more informed and better educated and out for the good of all humanity in a more superior way that you get fired up for a cause?

    Since when is caving to peer pressure better for a young person then learn to stand up and be proud a purpose and be independent thinking.

    Hummm....say what?
    Yeah. Wasn't there something said about the young lady in the hijab looking just like her peers that also wore hijab and why if she wanted to be an individual didn't she look more like an individual. But now its look more like act like your peers. So what is it? Be a crowd follower? Or be an individual? You can't play both sides of the coin for however it suits you while at the same time claim everything I say is wrong.

    You or the government or a government agency is not all knowledgeable to take child raising out of the hands of parents when there is no clear danger to the child.

    Tough and to bad if the child doesn't get to play sports there are children that have much bigger problems then that in their life's. Let me introduce you to some of the children who regularly come to the prison to visit their father. Then on the other week end go to a different prison to see their mother. Not much to say about what happened to their childhood. Would have been a good thing if they had parents that managed to stay at home.






    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #65 - April 16, 2014, 05:28 AM
    Oh BTW Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Hellfire. Thought you might what to know that for next time you try to insult my intelligence with something I don't believe and which isn't even Biblical.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #66 - April 16, 2014, 05:41 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 09:32 PM
    Cheesy
    osmanthus waits for Lynna to display massive concern for the health of the child


    Next time a Jehovah's Witness happens by your door ask them for the brochure or video on blood transfusion alternative. You might find it rather interesting. Do please also recall on this topic I've been a nurse for 26 years and have more then a little experience on the matter.

    If you're already on the do not call list PM and I'll give you the address to write to get the info if you want.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #67 - April 16, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Blood transfusion alternative?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #68 - April 16, 2014, 07:19 AM
    Who said anything about looking like their peers? Emotional appeal? You obviously did not read my posts. It's not about the beach, darling, and had you understood what I said about for example a child's health or motor skill development I think your reply would have been a little different.

    Don't give me that crap about not beliving in hell. No us disbelivers will just suffer through Ahrmageddon and its torture, and JW treat their apostates just a liiiiitle better than Muslims. At least you don't kill them. Your religious bias shines right through, you care more about that than the child's human rights. But I guess that human rights must be governed by whatever religious rights the parents have, right?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #69 - April 16, 2014, 08:15 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 16, 2014, 05:41 AM
    Next time a Jehovah's Witness happens by your door ask them for the brochure or video on blood transfusion alternative. You might find it rather interesting. Do please also recall on this topic I've been a nurse for 26 years and have more then a little experience on the matter.

    If you're already on the do not call list PM and I'll give you the address to write to get the info if you want.

    No need. All the relevant information is already online.

    So, if you have 26 years experience you'd obviously know that volume expanders can be used for some cases, but these aren't sufficient for all cases, and that some cases still require transfusions.

    Question: what do you say about a kid who is one of the cases that still requires a transfusion?

    Quote
    With enough blood loss, ultimately red blood cell levels drop too low for adequate tissue oxygenation, even if volume expanders maintain circulatory volume. In these situations, the only alternatives are blood transfusions, packed red blood cells, or oxygen therapeutics (if available).


    @Quod: Google is your friend.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_expander
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #70 - April 16, 2014, 01:17 PM
    I said you were making an emotional appeal.

    Listen to yourself. Your example that you're now backing away from? Because you think something is important doesn't make it so. Any sport you think of there are people who haven't gotten to play it for other reasons and have done just fine in life.

    Just like Osmanthus and his implied or very direct Jehovah's Witnesses let their children die because they don't accept blood products. Whereas in reality Jehovah Witnesses parents are more informed then most about what their options are to get good treatment for their chidren and their self.

    Lfe in the real world seldom if ever happens in it is either choice A or B. There is almost never a one solution fits all cases answer.  That's how I know your making an emotional appeal instead of actual being interested in anyone's rights. Children are in the care of their parents for a reason that being they aren't able to take care of themselves. So it's the parents responsibility.

    I'm just not fooled into thinking this is about the child's motor skills and health because those can develop just fine or just as fine as some other children in other circumstances. This is about imposing a standard of thought and activity on someone else. To be more clear you imposing what you think should happen onto someone else's child. And not just on one individual child that may or may not be able to be proven to be in a dangerous position but on all children of a certain religious group by passing a law that makes certain clothing legal or illegal based soully on age. Try to be open minded and think about a law being passed that would infringe on your parental rights. Oh yes believe it or not as perfect as you think you are there is some one around who could make your day with their ideas.

    You can have your "little say" here in cyber space but I have to have thought enough about how "plans" impact the bigger picture. Not just my own opinion and what I want to happen to or for me. Nurses are mandatory reporters of child abuse and neglect not just while I'm at work but every place I see a child. I have to take classes and keep reasonably up on the laws. Because I could be called on to testify in court just for being a by stander to event in the neighborhood.

    Actually I would defend your right to raise your child as an Atheist if that's what you wanted to do. I was very concerned on the thread about religion being taught in UK public school. It turned out was more like comparative religion I guess. Anyhow it didn't seem appropriate for lower grades. Maybe high-school. But the people on the forum in the UK weren't put out by it so may be the curriculum was really very good.

    Yes a great many people will die at Armageddon that however will be their choice. Now as for the suffering during the great tribulation that is not limited to the unbelievers. It however would be worse on them I suppose because they would understand why it's happening. Both of those events however are a far cry from eternal torment in Hellfire.







     

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #71 - April 16, 2014, 01:54 PM
    I tend to like psychological studies to be kind of the arbiter of arguments like these, but it seems that there aren't really any studies or articles that I would trust to be an authority on young girls being forced to veil.

    However, Lynna, and I think we were just talking about something like this on another thread a week ago or so, it has been demonstrated that things as simple as a child's clothing choice or the clothing a child is forced to wear, especially if it has sexual implications, can be detrimental to the child's self-esteem and mental health--something that can persist into adulthood.

    I do not want to tell you that the hijab will necessarily do this even a significant portion of the time, since I believe we need more studies before we go saying this either way, but it does stand to reason that if certain children suddenly find themselves forced to hide their bodies it can make them more aware of their sexuality at an early age which may bring on a whole bunch of other psychological maladies/feelings of shame about their bodies.

    I would be very interested to see a comprehensive study about this...any PhD candidates in the field reading this? Wink
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #72 - April 16, 2014, 02:46 PM
    I'm not backing away from anything, the example was to illustrate a point, but which you cannot understand  or comprehend (probably cuz you're being the emotional one) since your bigger picture is everything except a child's human rights and all to do with the parents' rights Smiley The parents have the right to raise their children how they see fit, I just do not think forcing a sexist garment upon them when still children is included there. Just like I see it unfit to put a Swastika on a childs jacket. There is nothing emotional about worrying about a child's health, cognitive and motor skills development, and over-all mental well-being.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #73 - April 16, 2014, 02:52 PM
    Why would you find it unfit to put a Swastika on a child's jacket?

    Forgot about the Nazis. It is just that it's not considered offensive in India.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #74 - April 16, 2014, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 16, 2014, 01:54 PM
    I tend to like psychological studies to be kind of the arbiter of arguments like these, but it seems that there aren't really any studies or articles that I would trust to be an authority on young girls being forced to veil.

    However, Lynna, and I think we were just talking about something like this on another thread a week ago or so, it has been demonstrated that things as simple as a child's clothing choice or the clothing a child is forced to wear, especially if it has sexual implications, can be detrimental to the child's self-esteem and mental health--something that can persist into adulthood.



    This is true, but I just want to make a point on the subject of physical heath (ahem sorry).
    My exes sister was in niqaab from the age of twelve, during the last few years she suffered with major bone pains, especially in her legs. During the last year my in laws finnaly took her to a proper doctor who ran blood tests and discovered a MAJOR lack of vitamin D.

    She was advised to spend more time in the SUN and given very high dosages of vitiman D supplements.

    Forcing or even encouraging kids to cover up from a young age does have a lot of effects and impacts
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #75 - April 16, 2014, 03:15 PM
    I would think there are more studies on young girls dressing like grown up sexual women.

    But once again I think the results of any study would greatly vary depending on many factors.

    But I still would not be in favor of the government passing laws on how people of any age must dress. Except what we've basically agreed on in this conversation total nudity and such in public. Umm. There are some marked beaches where nudity is okay. But these are things that would not apply to schools.

    Once it starts on one group where does it stop?

    No one can simply say it's human rights or children's rights to impose some dress code on a multi cultural world or population.

    I recently had a conversation with a friend who had spent sometime in another country where formal dress is not dresses for women and suits for men. Well in the course of the conversation she says, "The women there are start to follow Biblical standards and wear dresses to meeting." Say what? Huh? I asked her to show me in the Bible where it said to wear dresses to meeting. Well it doesn't. It says modest. It say well arranged. It talks about honourable occations. Her reply was you know what I mean. Well know I don't. I know the women where she was were pants and shear or lace type tunics with a cami under it. That has been their formal dress for irk 100's of years. So for them that is modest well arranged and good for an honourable occation. To expect them to embrace western dress while in their own country is wrong and a wrong mind set. Even if a person came from that country to mine it would be wrong to insist they observe the standard I'm accustom to.

    Anyhow part of that conversation was that my friend thought the shear/lace tops was cami under was very sexy. Well knowing where she was the people there doubtless thought her knee length skirts were very sexy.

    Individual humans need to figure out how they are going to interact in this world.

    I posted the first part of this before I read your reply.
    What evidence do you have that hijab real does prevent developement of fine or gross motor skills?
    A few years back I saw some young girls in hijab at the iceskating rink. They were doing a dam good job at it. Better then the young lgirls with me who had never had a hijab on in their life.
    Cognitive delays?
    I've worked with a few nurses, radiographers, dietitians and other medical staff that wear hijab none seem delayed to me.
    My sister (now retired) was a master teacher for students with special needs she never mentioned an especially high rate of problems among child who wore hijab. And yes there were children in here area who wore hijab.










    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #76 - April 16, 2014, 04:28 PM
    It's very hard not to address your comments on blood and Armageddon.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #77 - April 16, 2014, 04:41 PM

    Quote from: confusedagno on April 16, 2014, 03:00 PM
    This is true, but I just want to make a point on the subject of physical heath (ahem sorry).My exes sister was in niqaab from the age of twelve, during the last few years she suffered with major bone pains, especially in her legs. During the last year my in laws finnaly took her to a proper doctor who ran blood tests and discovered a MAJOR lack of vitamin D.

    She was advised to spend more time in the SUN and given very high dosages of vitiman D supplements.

    Forcing or even encouraging kids to cover up from a young age does have a lot of effects and impacts

    It is a shame to hear your ex sister in law.
    I have a friend who in her mid forties has bone lose problems from never going outside and when she does using 75 sunscreen on what tiny bite of exposed skin she allowed. But has never had a hijab or niqab on in her life.
    So what law do you purpose for my friend?
    Outlawing foolish fears of skin cancer?
    Gee.
    The government can not and should not make laws for every possibility.
    Most people should know vitamin D is manufactured on the skin while it is exposed to the sun. So it follows your skin needs to be exposed to the sun at some point or you need to get your vitamin D some other way. Foritified milk? Pills?
    Is there a reason way middle eastern homes had courtyards or roof patios? Humm...so the women could go outside unseen.
    What happened to your ex sister in laws personal responsibility for self? Is she and the entire family from a very poor uneducated third or forth world county that has no access to education and health care? Or was it like my friend just ungrounded fear that stopped her from a reasonable course?

    That would really be it though education. Education about important things is the road up for people.
















    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #78 - April 16, 2014, 04:48 PM
    I dont believe I mentioned anything about making a law Smiley

    Just sharing an experience
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #79 - April 16, 2014, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 16, 2014, 04:28 PM
    It's very hard not to address your comments on blood and Armageddon.


    I would image it would be.
    I however didn't bring up either of those topics for that very reason. I am not open to change. I will tell how I fell on the matter. I will listen to how you feel and I have time and again proven myself respectful of peoples choice to accept blood as medical treatment. Unlike many of my workmates who disrespect my religious companions even though the law of the land supports us. I have however found here if I don't respond to these topic when thrown at me I'm running and hiding but if I do no one knows what to say or they keep trying to twist the subject because IDK perhaps they want it to look like something worse then it is.

    Do tell why do you feel a need to respond to that part of the conversation? You were not one of the people that brought up those topics.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #80 - April 16, 2014, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: confusedagno on April 16, 2014, 04:48 PM
    I dont believe I mentioned anything about making a law Smiley

    Just sharing an experience

    Ah that is right you did not.

    That law making was part of the bigger conversation.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #81 - April 16, 2014, 05:40 PM
    The only solution for the hijab issue is to do what we are already doing and that is to target the muslim youth with western style media, music, fashion etc, very lame i know but hopefully it will soften them and alter their outlook on orthodox islam, it will be hard to penetrate those hardcore islamic countries but change is happening as we speak, it needs time to evolve with each generation. Enforcing gov and school laws wont work, will only discriminate against many.. Apart from all those muslim neanderthrals out there that hit the headlines everu week i think islam is going through change and is gradually becoming watered down an expample is makeup, when i was a muslim 5 years ago no one dared wear it, i would be told off for wearing mascara, now every girl is plastered in it and wears tight jeans etc, you would never have seen that years ago..  anyway, its up to the muslim women to make changes, they have so much power that they dont realise and they cant rely on the muslim men to make positive changes for them coz theyre lost up their own arses.   
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #82 - April 16, 2014, 05:44 PM
    Ye I don't think its a matter of enforcing people to change via laws, people need to figure things out for themselves and make these changes themselves.

    The way the world is going changes are likely to come enforced laws or not
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #83 - April 16, 2014, 06:00 PM
    IMHO hijab doesn't lower the beauty of a woman. The way it is tightly covering the head in a decorative manner debunks the Muslims' theory that it keeps off man's eyes. Isn't that against the ruling of purdah? A guy I know once said that niqab makes a woman look mysterious. Yes and if you have those thickly lined eyes men ARE going to think about you- Niqab ke piche kya hai, niqab ke piche? Islam is so silly.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #84 - April 16, 2014, 06:02 PM
    u right rubaya, I wore a lovely beaded beige scarf today and tbh i feel it drew more attention to me then if i had just put my hair up in a pony tale
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #85 - April 16, 2014, 06:04 PM
    It's a fashion statement of symbolic 'piety' and belonging to a group. This isn't much different from churchgoers who go to seem pious and to belong to the group who outside of church really dress up attractively. It's all about the conformity and fitting in and not about any actual beliefs as much as they think it is.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #86 - April 16, 2014, 06:16 PM
    And this pious fashion is mandatory for women in conservative Muslim societies, where a woman if she follows the five pillars properly will still be criticised for not complying to it.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #87 - April 16, 2014, 06:33 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya link=topic=25608.msg746104#msg74
    6104 date=1397671222
    IMHO hijab doesn't lower the beauty of a woman. The way it is tightly covering the head in a decorative manner debunks the Muslims' theory that it keeps off man's eyes. Isn't that against the ruling of purdah? A guy I know once said that niqab makes a woman look mysterious. Yes and if you have those thickly lined eyes men ARE going to think about you- Niqab ke piche kya hai, niqab ke piche? Islam is so silly.


    Ha ha so true, i often think some women look stunning in niqab, ive turned a few english guys heads in it too lol, too hilarious..  funny you know i remember when i left islam took off hijab and changed cities, i still wore the long skirts to my ankle lol, i found it sooo hard to pluck up the courage to go out in jeans lol, i think folks thought i was jewish or JW but the local guys actually enjoyed my modest dress, soon as i changed to jeans i became invisible.. I think secretly guys like women covering up in clothes Wink   the mystery, they wont admit it though lol
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #88 - April 16, 2014, 06:52 PM
    I like my man covered too. But not with veils but trousers or lose three-quarter shorts only grin12. For some weird reason trunks and tight boxers repulse me.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #89 - April 16, 2014, 06:54 PM
    O rubi you would be such fun to dress up for Wink

    *puts on sexy lingerie for rubi  Kiss *
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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