S.A.M
Could you tell me what, other than a nice phrase, the "Scrolls of Abraham" are, and could you point me to the corruptions and alterations in the texts that antedate the Quran. Give me a few - say 5 - examples.
Can you explain the curious understanding of the Torah - the standard traditional Jewish belief is that whilst these contain records of God's words and actions in history, they were - bar the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy ( traditionally ascribed to Joshua ) - written by Moses, and there's no real implication that Moses was taking divine dictation apart from the commandments.
I am sorry, I am not the person of the scripture to show, which one is the revelations of corruption or which one has been modified. Preferably you ask academicians or religious scholar about it.
Here I tell some of the earliest and most credible sources Islamic scholars comments about changes in the content of the verses of the Holy Torah.
c. 0-50 AH Shortly after the Prophet’s (PBUH) death
Ibn Abbas............Misinterpreted the text
“They corrupt the word means they alter or change its meaning, yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly” – (Kitaab Al-Tawheed, Baab Qawlu Allah Ta’ala, Bal Huwa Qur’aanun Majeed, fi lawhin Mahfooth) and “The word Tahrif [corruption] signifies to change a thing from its original nature; and there is no man who could corrupt a single word of what proceeds from God, so that the Jews and Christians could corrupt only by misrepresenting the meanings of the word of God” (Muhammad Isma’il al-Bukhari, quoted in Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p.62) – these ahadith indicate that those who walked with the Prophet (PBUH) believed the text of the Torah was original, while holding the view that the Jews perverted their interpretation.
154 AH
164 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathIbn al-Layth........... Misinterpreted the text
In the year 796 Abu l-Rabi Muhammad ibn al-Layth (a courtier to Kalif Harun al-Rashid ) penned a letter1 to Constatine VI stating that the word “tahrif” should be read as the Jews had distorted their sense. “Whoever looks in the books of the prophets will find Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned, but the people of the book have obscured these references by changing their interpretation”. Ibn al-Layth categorically denies the possibility of passages having been added to, or omitted from, the scriptures, and he then goes on to use the text of the Torah as proof of the authenticity of the Torah (a belief both he and the kalif share).
1 Risalat Abi l-Rabiʿ Muhammad ibn al-Layth allati katabaha li-l-Rashod ila Qustantin malik al-Rum213 AH
223 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathIbn Rabban..... Misinterpreted the text
In the year 855 Ali ibn Rabban al-Tabari reaffirmed what al-Layth said2 before him, that the Jews distorted their interpretation of the scriptures and not of the text itself. Both al-Layth and ibn Rabban connected prophecies contained in the Torah to Muhammad (PBUH).
2 Kitab al-din al-dawlac 190 AH
200 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathIbn Qutayba..... Misinterpreted the text
Ibn Qutayba used the Torah as a proof that the coming of Muhammad (PBUH) had been foretold by the Torah… throughout his numerous works like al-Layth he used the Torah as source of authentic historical reference. There can be no question that Ibn Qutayba believed tahrif to mean incorrect interpretation of a genuine text.
c 230 AH
240 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathAl-Ya’qubi.......... Misinterpreted the text
Ahmad al-Ya’qubi accepted evidence from the Torah throughout his works. This stands as a testament to his belief that the Torah was uncorrupted, as no scholar would use a corrupted text as a source of proof.
c 250 AH
260 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathAl-Tabari........... Misinterpreted the text
Abu Ja’far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabar explains two separate instances of the word “tahrif” in the Torah:
When Moses ordered the Israelites to express their repentance, they used a phrase other than the one they had been commanded to use. The distortion that was an oral one, and not written.
Al-Tabari explicitly states that when the seventy elders that had accompanied Moses (PBUH) to Mount Sinai returned to the Israelites, some of them gave a false report of what they heard, distorting G-d’s spoken words, but not the written Torah.
c 290 AH
300 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathAl-Baqillani............. Misinterpreted the text
Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Tayyib al-Baqillani was of the opinion that the words of Moses were still extant in their Hebrew original and that the Jews had inadvertently made mistakes in their translations.
305 AH
315 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathAl-Ma’sudi.......... Misinterpreted the text
Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Mas’udi wrote3 that in the context of the Torah the word “tahrif” means that the Jews had distorted the sense of the Torah and not the text.
3 Muruj adh-dhahab wa ma’adin al-jawahirc 340 AH
350 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathAl-Muqaddasi.......... Changed the text
Al-Muqaddasi was the first author to deviate from the traditional understanding of “tahrif” with his suggestion that the very text of the Torah had suffered distortion. It took 300 years for a scholar to suggest this innovative idea and despite it being incompatible with the view of far greater scholars before him, it is this view that is most popular today.
390 AH
400 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathIbn Hazm............ Changed the text
The most influential accusation of Jews falsifying the text of the Torah came 400 years after the death of Muhammad (PBUH) from Ibn Hazm an Andalusian scholar that denied Mosiac authorship and instead charged Ezra (Uzair) with penning the text we read today.4 This was a radical change from predecessors like Ibn Qutayba and Al-Tabari who not only believed the original words were extant, but that it was Ezra who reinstated them after they had been forgotten.
4 Al-Fisal fi al-Milal wal-Ahwa wal-Nihal390 AH
400 years after the Prophet’s (PBUH) deathal-Biruni.......... Misinterpreted & changed the text
Abu Rayḥan al-Biruni a contemporary of Ibn-Hazm found prophetic allusions to Muahammad (PBUH) in the Torah 5, while simultaneously holding the belief that some of the words had been altered by Banu Yisrael.
5 Athar al-baqiyahIn the words of Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi
In classical Arabic, this word [tahrif] can either mean “alteration” (in the text), or “misinterpretation” (in the sense). While most of contemporary Muslim propagandists take only the first possible meaning into consideration, plenty of authoritative scholars of old (including Imam al-Ghazali and Shaykh Muhiddin Ibn ‘Arabi) prefer the second one, and support their point of view through ahadith which are universally accepted as authentic. According to one of them, the Prophet Muhammad asked the Jews of Medina to bring their Torah Scroll and to read from it to confirm a verdict (and the argument is “were that Scroll adulterated, the Prophet would have never judged on its base”). According to another hadith, he met Jews who were bringing a Torah Scroll in procession, kissed the Scroll and said “amantu bika wa amantu bima fik” (I believe in you and in yours contents). The argument here is “were that Scroll adulterated, the Prophet would have never said ‘I believe in your contents’.”. As a Muslim scholar, I think that showing all these and other legal proof in Islam is the best way to lead Muslims to recognize the Divine character of the Torah as the Jews have it today.
Can you explain the curious (mis)understanding of the Gospels - prior to Islam no-one ever claimed that these were revelations FROM God as such, rather they were understood as the written testimonies of ordinary men who were "witnesses" to history/reporting on the acts, miracles, wisdom, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
So far what I know misconceptions about that Trinity only. Beyond that, you're out on your own what the Christians sholar own speak about the Gospel of corrupted or not by Paul of Tarsus.
Let’s not forget that Jesus himself refused to perform a miracle when asked by the Pharisees. Also let’s not forget how the Jews called Jesus POSSESSED when he revived a dead person. Many of prophet of God was mocked and when they performed miracles they (Jews and unbelievers) still did not believe..
Can you explain what you mean by some scholars believe the Dead Sea Scrolls come from the Psalm origin - your phrasing is very unclear. Which scholars? I'm fairly sure that you've never read any of the Qumran texts, or even have the slightest idea what they actually are - so I'm assuming that these aren't your own words. Can you explain what is meant by the implication that God gave the Psalms to David - are the Psalms examples of God's earlier, more creative and better phase in his poetic career?
The Eddas are collections of Norse mythology. QSE is pulling your leg.
I've read a little bit Dead Sea Scrolls. And what I know about the Dead Sea Scrolls the Scholars do not agree that the Dead Sea Scrolls are original or genuine from Psalms.
I have no idea about the Zabur. There is any implication or not.
Topic: New Member