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Theme Changer

 Topic: Linguistic miracle.

 (Read 14342 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Linguistic miracle.
     OP - October 28, 2013, 01:45 PM

    I was reading Ummah and found this answer in a talk about the Quran's miracles.
    What do you guys think about that supposed miracle?

    "Example out of hundreds. See the verse 36:40.
    لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ ۚ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
    It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Yasin 36:40]

    Lets take the later half of the verse. وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ (They all float, each in an orbit)
    Now i don't know if you can read Arabic or not, But i'll try my best to make you see the beauty here
    orbit.png

    The first and the last alphabet is 'K' the second and second last is 'L' the third and third last is 'F'. They are 'floating in an orbit' around the Alphabet 'Y'. Why 'Y' ? because that's the word Allah uses for floating-'Yasbahoon' See how the magnificent palindrome beautifully compliments the meaning of the verse. The most important thing to remember is that Quran is a spoken word.This is possible to do while writing, not with something you speak."

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #1 - October 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

    You're not going to explain how islam is right about the sun orbiting the Earth instead of the other way around?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #2 - October 28, 2013, 02:53 PM

    i think numerological and mere pattern seeking 'miracles' are the most pathetic of all.
    even more pathetic than the 'scientific' miracles.

    I could find patterns in everything i have ever seen, if I could be bothered / was desperate enough.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #3 - October 28, 2013, 03:08 PM

    I have read this before. It's called desperate pattern-seeking.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #4 - October 28, 2013, 03:11 PM

    i think numerological and mere pattern seeking 'miracles' are the most pathetic of all.
    even more pathetic than the 'scientific' miracles.

    I could find patterns in everything i have ever seen, if I could be bothered / was desperate enough.


    I used to think this was untrue and a cop-out. But considering the sheer vastness of the sample space you have for seeking patterns, especially if it is based on arbitrary premises, I realized its truth.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #5 - October 28, 2013, 05:53 PM

    Lol that's a terrible one. It's not even a true palindrome, it's only taking the constants exempting vowels and it's very short at 3 values long in an arbitrary location. Is this what passes for miracles to these people?

    "I own a race car even though it's expensive." LOOK AT THIS MIRACULOUS LINGUISTIC MIRACLE! RAC is around e and CAR is after e for race care and is followed by the word 'even' which not only is miraculous as the e in even is related to the center but the RACCAR is an 'even' amount of values! LOOK AT ALL THIS AMAZING INFORMATION IT SUCH A BASIC SENTENCE I JUST THOUGHT UP ON THE SPOT! I'm changing my name to Mohammad and starting a clut immediately.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #6 - October 28, 2013, 07:05 PM

    RecRoom! How have you been, my friend? You always magically appear when the talk of 'miracles' are involved. Keeping everything in check I see  Afro
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #7 - October 28, 2013, 07:27 PM

    I was reading Ummah and found this answer in a talk about the Quran's miracles.
    What do you guys think about that supposed miracle?

    "Example out of hundreds. See the verse 36:40.
    لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ ۚ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
    It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Yasin 36:40]

    Lets take the later half of the verse. وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ (They all float, each in an orbit)
    Now i don't know if you can read Arabic or not, But i'll try my best to make you see the beauty here
    orbit.png

    The first and the last alphabet is 'K' the second and second last is 'L' the third and third last is 'F'. They are 'floating in an orbit' around the Alphabet 'Y'. Why 'Y' ? because that's the word Allah uses for floating-'Yasbahoon' See how the magnificent palindrome beautifully compliments the meaning of the verse. The most important thing to remember is that Quran is a spoken word.This is possible to do while writing, not with something you speak."


    That is really, really dumb.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #8 - October 28, 2013, 09:51 PM

    RecRoom! How have you been, my friend? You always magically appear when the talk of 'miracles' are involved. Keeping everything in check I see  Afro

    Wassup?

    You could say that I 'miraculously' appear  Wink

    Just for laughs I tried to milk more out of my previous 'linguistic miracle' and found another formulation. I promise I didn't think of any of this in advance before making the statement. L just knew that the word(s) race car produced a palindrome and recorded the first sentence that came to mind.

    I  - 1 syllable
    own - 1 syllable
    a - 1 syllable
    race - 1 syllable
    car - 1 syllable

    even - 2 syllables

    though - 1 syllable
    it's - 1 syllable
    expensive - - 3 syllables

    5 syllables on each side = symmetry, total of 10 (even number). 'Even' has an even number of syllables at 2. Total amount is 12 syllables which is even.

    Hmm, what's that Jibreel? You say I'm a what?
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #9 - October 28, 2013, 11:02 PM

  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #10 - October 30, 2013, 01:29 AM

    Wassup?

    You could say that I 'miraculously' appear  Wink

    Just for laughs I tried to milk more out of my previous 'linguistic miracle' and found another formulation. I promise I didn't think of any of this in advance before making the statement. L just knew that the word(s) race car produced a palindrome and recorded the first sentence that came to mind.

    I  - 1 syllable
    own - 1 syllable
    a - 1 syllable
    race - 1 syllable
    car - 1 syllable

    even - 2 syllables

    though - 1 syllable
    it's - 1 syllable
    expensive - - 3 syllables

    5 syllables on each side = symmetry, total of 10 (even number). 'Even' has an even number of syllables at 2. Total amount is 12 syllables which is even.

    Hmm, what's that Jibreel? You say I'm a what?


     Cheesy
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #11 - October 30, 2013, 04:57 PM

    Hmm, what's that Jibreel? You say I'm a what?


    LOL
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #12 - October 30, 2013, 07:58 PM

    LOL

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KPEiGqDQHg

    look at that fool...  see how much time he is spending.,  well you guys laugh but fools do spend enormous  time to pull miracles out of  arabic words of  Quran.  

    Stupid people ..Errr let me watch this instead of that nonsense...  hmm., that is beautiful and it is real data..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #13 - December 17, 2013, 10:00 PM

    I have gained confidence. When I was diagnosed with depression and now that I have partly cured it, same thoughts don't circle in my thoughts 10 hours a day like they used to. I feel quite free and it feels great. So I have been able to see how my fears and lack of confidence made me almost like some kind of bag of paper whirling in the wind. I believed all the claims because my nervousness was cast upon my nervousness. I was seeing positive things in ludicrous claims made by muslims. I was like young girl in love. Girl, who cannot see how that douche mistreats her. Because she has had good impression of him once, because she has once been taken overwhelmingly by his personality, she cannot get over him and she believes everything everyone else sees to be false.

    I thank kutta, Rationalizer and many more for helping me to see some things, but path is still long and road looks endless. Now there are two things that bother me in the back of my mind. So, make me see instead of just saying how stupid the claims possibly are.

    1. I heard claim, that it would require a genius to create a book that speaks to you when you read it. The claim included, that when you read the Quran, it's like a conversation.
    2. I hear a claim, that word choices of the Quran are amazing, fulfilling the story, context and the whole message of the Quran and such masterpiece couldn't be made by anyone human, let alone by Muhammad. Some examples:

    a) When pharaoh is killed, the Quran still says that he was saved in his body. So that his body was not destroyed but he was killed and therefore his body - which held high position in Egyptian view of pharaoh, hence the mummyfication - to be a sign for Egypt, just like Allah had intended.
    b) In Surah 22:31 Quran chooses to use 'saheeq' instead of 'baeed'. The verse gives threat and that is why Quran chose to use saheeq which has much deeper and less friendly tone, as the last word.
    c) or this, which I put into a quote because it is longer and not by me

    Quote
    Example 7: The challenge

    Surah al-Kawthar is the shortest surah in the Qur’an with only three short verses and like all of the other chapters in the Qur’an, has an unmatched selection of words, pronouns, word order and meaning. Moreover, anyone attempting to take up the challenge of the Qur’an only needs to produce something comparable to it. By briefly analysing this chapter’s first verse it provides an insight into how this matchless and eloquent discourse is achieved.

    i. Emphasis and choice of pronoun

    Verily, We have granted you al-Kawthar.
    Inna a’tayna kal kawthar
    Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice.
    Fasalli li rabbika wanhar
    For he who hates you, he will be cut off.
    Inna shani-aka huwal abtar

    The use of the words (Verily, We) at the start of al-Kawthar is emphatic; also the plural is used to indicate power, certainty, ability, greater quantity or sometimes to stress the status and greatness (li-ta’zim al-mutakallim aw ihtimaman bidhikr rabbika wa ta’ziman). This is an apt choice of pronoun as its persuasive force can not be matched by any other pronoun. The effect is “The Creator, who has power to do anything, has indeed given you….”

    ii. Word choice

    The term a’tayn has been used instead of aataaina’ because of a subtle difference. The difference as defined by Ibn Manzoor in his Lisan al-Arab is that the Qur’anic choice indicates ‘to hand over with one’s own hand’ whereas the non Qur’anic selection does not provide this meaning.

    This choice of word is apt as it strengthens the sentence emphasizing the surety of giving, ability, greatness, power and intimacy (to console and strengthen Prophet Muhammad ). The verb has also been used in the past tense which indicates that it has already happened and makes it definitive. This further accentuates the meaning of surety, power and greatness. This also expresses certainty of a promise; in this case Prophet Muhammad will have al-Kawthar, or abundance.

    The root stem for the word al-Kawthar are the letters kaf, tha and ra (kathara). This signifies plentiful, multitude, overflowing, rich, unstinting and unending. Other derivations of this root include:

    1. katha-ratun: Multitude

    2. katheerun: Much, many, numerous

    3. ak’tharu: More numerous (emphasis)

    4. kath-thara: To multiply

    5. takathur: Act of multiplying

    6. is-thak-thara: To wish for much

    Al-Qurtubi states that the Arabs used ‘kawthar’ to denote anything which is great in quantity or value. This word can not be replaced with another, as its meaning can not be matched equally with any other Arabic word.

    iii. Word arrangement

    The placement of al-Kawthar is an attribute; plentiful and abundance. However, this word has been placed at the end of the verse with no word after to be attributed to it, as al-Qurtubi points out, this indicates that Prophet Muhammad has been given an abundance of everything. Islamic scholars state that if Allah had bestowed one thing in great multitude then that would have been mentioned. How-ever, due to giving Prophet Muhammad an abundance of everything, nothing is mentioned to indicate everything or many things. Also, within the science of eloquence and rhetoric, mentioning all things would be superfluous and not a good use of language.

    iv. Multiple meaning

    The word al-Kawthar has been given multiple meanings by the scholars. These meanings include:

    1. A river of Paradise from which rivers flow.

    2. The fountain on the Day of Judgement from which Prophet Muhammad will quench the thirst of his people.

    3. His prophethood.

    4. The Qur’an.

    5. The way of life called Islam.

    6. The multitude of his companions; no other prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad.

    7. Elevated status. No one is more researched, more mentioned, more praised and more loved than Prophet Muhammad.

    8. It is a multitude of goodness.


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #14 - December 17, 2013, 10:46 PM

    Quote
    1. I heard claim, that it would require a genius to create a book that speaks to you when you read it. The claim included, that when you read the Quran, it's like a conversation.


    why would it take a genius? I can write this response speaking to you quite easily. Anybody can do that. Muhammed can speak to people and have it written down. I don't see what is impressive about that.
    I wouldn't say it sounds like a conversation though, because conversations are two way, and none of the questions I have when I read the quran are answered.

    Quote
    2. I hear a claim, that word choices of the Quran are amazing,


    i don't understand the pharoah example.
    The second one is really mundane. All writers make choices when they choose words. I am doing it right now. There are 80,000 words in the quran. Of course some of them will be quite suitable.


    Quote
    c)Example 7: The challenge

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16329.0
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #15 - December 18, 2013, 05:38 AM

    The quoted example is basic Literature 101, I not impressed with a basic analyse of a text as some sort of miracle. I've done the same type of analyse with the Bible, OT and NT, Shakespeare, Frost, Tolstoy, Homer, etc. Christians have been doing this with the Bible for centuries. Heck in one of my essays on Shakespeare I managed to suggest he was gay and had a male lover.

    Here is a method of analyse for Shakespeare's sonnets: http://shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/sonnetanalyze.html http://shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/sonnetthemes.html

    You will find the same steps in both Shakespeare and Quran analyses. Is this really a miracle or sophistry aimed at those that have never taken a literature class before?
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #16 - December 18, 2013, 08:20 AM

    ... or sophistry aimed at those that have never taken a literature class before?


    Yes. And people who know nothing about linguistics.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #17 - December 18, 2013, 09:25 AM

    1. I heard claim, that it would require a genius to create a book that speaks to you when you read it. The claim included, that when you read the Quran, it's like a conversation.
    2. I hear a claim, that word choices of the Quran are amazing, fulfilling the story, context and the whole message of the Quran and such masterpiece couldn't be made by anyone human

    I think these satisfy your criteria. The linguistic miracles of PG Wodehouse.
    Quote
    Into the face of the young man who sat on the terrace of the Hotel Magnifique at Cannes there had crept a look of furtive shame, the shifty hangdog look which announces that an Englishman is about to speak French.

    Quote
    "I wonder if I might call your attention to an observation of the Emperor Marcus Aurelius. He said: 'Does aught befall you? It is good. It is part of the destiny of the Universe ordained for you from the beginning. All that befalls you is part of the great web'."
    I breathed a bit stertorously.
    "He said that, did he?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "Well, you can tell him from me he's an ass."

    Quote
    Although nobody who had met him was likely to get George Cyril Wellbeloved confused with the poet Keats, it was extraordinary on what similar lines the two men's minds worked. "Oh, for a beaker of the warm South, full of the true, the blushful Hippocrene!'' sang Keats, licking his lips, and "Oh, for a mug of beer, with, if possible, a spot of gin in it!'' sighed George Cyril Wellbeloved, licking his; and in quest of the elixir he had visited in turn the Emsworth Arms, the Wheatsheaf, the Waggoner's Rest, the Beetle and Wedge, the Stitch in Time, the Jolly Cricketers and all the other hostelries at which Market Blandings pointed with so much pride.
    But everywhere the story was the same. Barmaids had been given their instructions, pot boys warned to be on the alert. They had placed at his disposal gingerbeer, ginger ale, sarsaparilla, lime juice and on one occasion milk, but his request for the cup that clears today of past regrets and future fears was met with a firm nolle prosequi. Staunch and incorruptible, the barmaids and the pot boys refused to serve him with anything that would have interested Omar Khayyam, and he had come away parched and saddened. 

    Quote
    I spent the afternoon musing on Life. If you come to think of it, what a queer thing Life is! So unlike anything else, don't you know, if you see what I mean.

  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #18 - September 14, 2014, 01:58 PM

    I could find patterns in everything i have ever seen


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #19 - September 16, 2014, 12:57 AM

    I can't think of any worse example to show the 'miraculousness' of the Qur'an's language than al Kawthar.  Let's look at what is cited as evidence of its miraculous nature, which actually proves its opposite --- the fact that the title of the Surah is an 'Arabic' term which the exegetes couldn't make heads or tails of, and came up with numerous different attempts to say what is supposedly is, none of which were correct.  Cut and pasted from that post above:
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    iv. Multiple meaning

    The word al-Kawthar has been given multiple meanings by the scholars. These meanings include:

    1. A river of Paradise from which rivers flow.

    2. The fountain on the Day of Judgement from which Prophet Muhammad will quench the thirst of his people.

    3. His prophethood.

    4. The Qur’an.

    5. The way of life called Islam.

    6. The multitude of his companions; no other prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad.

    7. Elevated status. No one is more researched, more mentioned, more praised and more loved than Prophet Muhammad.

    8. It is a multitude of goodness.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    This is indeed amazing, for it's very rare for nobody to know what a word actually means in a language.  If somebody were to come up with such a multiplicity of theories for, say, a Persian word, you as a Persian speaker would immediately conclude they had not the faintest idea what the word actually meant.  So what, exactly, is al-Kawthar?  It's a blatant Syriacism, which later Muslims misunderstood.  That's why the exegetes came up with so many different explanations for a word (and surah) that they did not know or understand.  Luxenberg's reading of Surah 108 is one of his best showings -- he is often wrong, but he is also often right, and on al-Kawthar he absolutely crushed it, in my opinion.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=227GhaeKYl4C&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq=kawthar+luxenberg&source=bl&ots=lhnA1W9K2s&sig=kUR7BVwmz8XAsNlQpiwNDc3RMro&hl=en&sa=X&ei=34cXVN3XPMbkoAS10IH4Bg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kawthar%20luxenberg&f=false
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #20 - September 16, 2014, 06:16 AM

    OMG Zaoter, I can't get enough of your posts.  I'm no expert, but you seem at to write better, and are at least as well informed as most of the scholars (and charlatans) that you often quote. Do you have any books or articles that you have written yourself? I completely trust you and your opinion, and am looking to learn as much as possible on why, how, where and when this thing, that refuses to let me live in peace, all started. PM me with a link if you wish to remain anonymous?

    Siunaa: I hope you continue to get better. Already, you sound to me that you are well on the road to recovery. I like your 'girl in love' analogy also Smiley

    Hi
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #21 - September 16, 2014, 10:15 AM

    OMG Zaotar, I can't get enough of your posts.  I'm no expert, but you seem at to write better, and are at least as well informed as most of the scholars (and charlatans) that you often quote. ................

    isn't he??  Zaotar  posts are crystal clear musivore., let me add that  Nouman Ali Khan   or  NO MAN KHAN  Quran  linguistic miracle here in support of what  Zaotar   saying..

    I can't think of any worse example to show the 'miraculousness' of the Qur'an's language than al Kawthar.  Let's look at what is cited as evidence of its miraculous nature, which actually proves its opposite --- the fact that the title of the Surah is an 'Arabic' term which the exegetes couldn't make heads or tails of, and came up with numerous different attempts to say what is supposedly is, none of which were correct.  Cut and pasted from that post above:
    _______________________________________________________________________________________
    Quote
    iv. Multiple meaning

    The word al-Kawthar has been given multiple meanings by the scholars. These meanings include:

    1. A river of Paradise from which rivers flow.

    2. The fountain on the Day of Judgement from which Prophet Muhammad will quench the thirst of his people.

    3. His prophethood.

    4. The Qur’an.

    5. The way of life called Islam.

    6. The multitude of his companions; no other prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad.

    7. Elevated status. No one is more researched, more mentioned, more praised and more loved than Prophet Muhammad.

    8. It is a multitude of goodness.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________


    This is indeed amazing, for it's very rare for nobody to know what a word actually means in a language.  If somebody were to come up with such a multiplicity of theories for, say, a Persian word, you as a Persian speaker would immediately conclude they had not the faintest idea what the word actually meant. So what, exactly, is al-Kawthar? It's a blatant Syriacism, which later Muslims misunderstood.  That's why the exegetes came up with so many different explanations for a word (and surah) that they did not know or understand.  Luxenberg's reading of Surah 108 is one of his best showings -- he is often wrong, but he is also often right, and on al-Kawthar he absolutely crushed it, in my opinion.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=227GhaeKYl4C&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq=kawthar+luxenberg&source=bl&ots=lhnA1W9K2s&sig=kUR7BVwmz8XAsNlQpiwNDc3RMro&hl=en&sa=X&ei=34cXVN3XPMbkoAS10IH4Bg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kawthar%20luxenberg&f=false

    for that let us read that Surah..   Surat Al-Kawthar (The Abundance) - سورة الكوثر

    *****************************************************************************************
    108.1:  
    Indeed, We have granted you, [O Muhammad], al-Kawthar.

    108.2:  
    So pray to your Lord and sacrifice [to Him alone].

    108.3:
    Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.
    *****************************************************************************

    Now those 3 three stupid verses with some 18 words becomes WHOLE CHAPTER IN QURAN ., and fools take those silly parables   write nonsense over nonsense or nonsense  of zillion pages .. to prove that here are the links..

    Three Lines that Changed the World: The Inimitability of the Shortest Chapter in the Qur’an  by Shaykh Hamza Tortilla tortoise geek

    Lingusitic Miracle of Surat Al-Kawthar by Shaykh NoMan Nut Case Khan

    How, the Quran is a literary and Linguistic miracle (It cant be reproduced) ?  By   Shaykh  Some other fool who can not use common sense

    The Literary and Linguistic Miracle of the Qur'an  by   high school drop out Shaykh Hamza Tortilla

    if these fools can take some 18 silly words and write some 100s of pages nonsense ., I don't see any hope that these guys will ever able to  read Quran all 114 chapters with-in their life time..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #22 - September 16, 2014, 05:19 PM

    Don't forget the Shia interpretation that alKawthar is Ali.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #23 - September 16, 2014, 05:39 PM

    Don't forget the Shia interpretation that alKawthar is Ali.

    well let us put that here..

    Quote
    Al-Kauthar in the Holy Quran means Hadrat Fatima Zahra (A.S.)

    Quote
    “In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
    Verily We have given you (O Muhammad) Kauthar.
    So pray to your Lord and offer sacrifice.
    Verily it your enemy whose line (progeny) shall be cut off”. (108: 1-3)


    Purpose of Revelation

    One day ‘Aas bin Wael, who was one of the leaders of the Mushrikeen of Makkah saw the Holy Prophet (saw) coming out of Masjidul-Haraam. Therefore, he stopped and conversed with him for some while. Meanwhile, some other elders of Mushrikeen who were inside the mosque, were observing this. When the conversation was over and ‘Aas came inside the mosque, the group asked, “O ‘Aas! Whom were you chatting to?” He responded by saying, “With that person who is Abtar”.
    Abtar means “Tail-less” – a person whose progeny has been cut off. The Holy prophet (saw) had two sons from Khadeeja (as) namely Qasim and Tahir. Since both of them had died, leaving the prophet without any sons, the pagan Arabs started calling the prophet (saw) Abtar. As a consolation to the Prophet (saw), Surah al-Kauthar was revealed. There are several meanings of al-Kauthar:

    Meaning of Al-Kauthar:

    It is recorded in al-Bukhari, al-Muslim, Musnad of Ahmed ibn Hanbal and other Sunni books that the Holy Prophet (saw) said: “Kauthar is a stream of super excellence exclusively belonging to me. Only the righteous believers (among my followers) will be allowed to drink from it. Ali (as) will distribute water from it to them. On the day of Judgement, I will see some of my companions driven like cattle away from Kauthar. It will be announced that they are those, who after my departure from the world, deviated from the true religion and introduced innovations to corrupt the faith”.

    From that day onwards, Ali (as) became known as Saaqi-e-Kauthar meaning one who quenches the thirst of believers from the stream of Kauthar.

    Kauthar also means Kheire-katheer “Bounties in abundance”. Allah (SWT) bestowed the Holy Prophet (saw) plenty of bounties such as prophethood, Holy Quran, companions, rulership, success in battles, acceptance and entrance of people into the fold of Islam in large numbers etc.

    However, many Shia scholars say that because in the last verse of this Surah, Allah (SWT) says, “Verily it is your enemy whose progeny shall be cut off” this by itself proves that Kauthar is also in reference to the most beloved daughter of the Messenger of Allah, Seyyida Fatimah az-Zahra (as) through whom Allah (SWT) gave His beloved prophet (saw) abundance of descendants.

    Female Born are Blessings Before Islam, giving birth to a female child was considered as source of disgrace and burden.

    “And when anyone of them is given the news of a daughter his face turns black, he is filled with anger. And he hides himself from the people because of the evil of the news given to him (wondering) should he keep her with disgrace, or bury her (alive) in the dust. Behold! (how) evil is what they judge”. (16:58-59)

    Quote
    Many Arabs opted to bury their female child to save themselves from disgrace:
    “And when the girl (buried alive) is asked; For what sin was she put to death”. (81:8-9)
    Whereas the Arabs used to hanker for male offspring, whom they believed ensured continuity of their progeny.

    The Holy Prophet (saw) said: “Blessed is that woman who first gives birth to a daughter and then to a son”. He (saw) also said: “Twelve graces descend over the person’s house where there are daughters. Heavenly blessings are showered on that house and angels visit that house for a glimpse”.


    A man was sitting with the Holy Prophet (saw) when someone came and told him, “A daughter has been born to you”. There was a visible sign of dislike on his face, so the Holy Prophet (saw) said, “The earth bears her, the heavens shade her and the Almighty gives her food. For you, she is like a flower, smell her fragrance”.

    Treatment of Fatimah(A.S.)

    The Holy Prophet (saw) accorded his daughter with highest respect and always showered her with love and kindness. Whenever, she came in his presence, the Holy Prophet (saw) stood up in her respect.

    He (saw) called her Umme Abeehaa meaning “The mother of her father”. He (saw) also said: “Fatimah is part of me, whoever offends her has offended me”.

    Even after Fatimah (as) was married to Ali (as), the Holy Prophet (saw) continued showing love to her and her family. He (saw) would frequently visit her and it was his tendency that whenever he went on a journey, he would first bid farewell to his wives and then come to the house of his beloved daughter from where he would begin his travel. On return, he would first come to greet Fatimah (as) and then go to others.

    Haroon ar-Rasheed once asked Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as), “Why do you call yourselves as descendants of the Holy Prophet (saw) when you are actually the descendants of Ali (as)? Men are traced to their fathers and the Holy Prophet (saw) was your maternal grandfather”. Imam (as) replied: “In Quran, Allah (SWT) says: and among his progeny (are) Dawood, Sulayman, Ayyub, Yusuf, Musa and Haroon. Thus We reward those who do good. And Zakariyyah, Yahya, Issa and Ilyaas…

    Who is Issa’s father? He is considered among the prophet’s offspring through Maryam. Likewise, we are the offspring of the Holy Prophet (saw) through our mother Fatimah”

    well that is the general view of  Shia Islam on that Surah..   But I have serious problem with this nonsense

    Quote
    Whereas the Arabs usMany Arabs opted to bury their female child to save themselves from disgrace: “And when the girl (buried alive) is asked; For what sin was she put to death”. (81:8-9) ....

    The Holy Prophet (saw) said:
    Quote
    “Blessed is that woman who first gives birth to a daughter and then to a son”. He (saw) also said: “Twelve graces descend over the person’s house where there are daughters. Heavenly blessings are showered on that house and angels visit that house for a glimpse”

    .

    If that is what Prophet said and IS NOT A VERSE IN QURAN but these stupid stuff in Quran that says

    Quote
    081.008 : And when the female infant buried alive is asked
    081.009 : For what sin she was killed

    ,
    means either that Prophet was NOT an Arab but some one else.,   Because if it is Muhammad and their clan/town then how the hell his first wife Khadija had such freedom of owning and running business and hiring men to work for her?

    Sure Arab women  before this Islamic gibberish had plenty of freedom., Women poets of that era is a proof of that..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #24 - September 16, 2014, 06:21 PM

    "Tail-less" is one of the worst offenders in the Muslim reading of this surah.  Really?  This is what you think the term "al abtaru" means, "tail-less"?  That anybody ever considered this misreading acceptable is rather sad ... the exegetes were basically tapping out and admitting they were stumped.  That scholars didn't draw the obvious conclusion -- that this text actually hailed from a linguistic and religious context far different than what ultimately emerged as "Islam" -- is remarkable. 

    The surah is beset by innumerable other problems.  To 'sacrifice'?  Why does Surah 108 use a special alleged Arabic word for sacrifice, traditionally read as "wa in'har," literally meaning "and slaughter," that is used nowhere else in the Qur'an?  Does the Surah really tell the believers to "pray and slaughter" here?  This is a linguistic miracle?  The base rasm simply says nun hah rah, no hamza, vowels, or diacritics.  Yet Muslims interpreted those three ambiguous consonants as Arabic for "slaughter," and then interpreted that violent term as meaning "sacrifice" in this context.  Here's the actual word in the traditional Classical Arabic reading, so you can precisely see how it breaks down.

    http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%28108:2:3%29

    By contrast, Luxenberg correctly reads the *rasm's* nun hah rah here as simply "ngar," meaning *persist* in Syriac, so that the believers are exhorted to pray *and persevere* (consistent with "kawthar" actually meaning "constancy"), not to "pray and slaughter" as the botched Muslim reading would have it.

    Thus Luxenberg's coherent reading of this Surah, which is infinitely superior to the mangled traditional Muslim reading:

    1.  We have given you the gift of constancy.
    2.  So pray to your Lord and persevere.
    3.  Your adversary (the devil) is then the loser.


  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #25 - October 12, 2014, 02:41 AM

    Zaotar's goodness extends to so many threads, I can't read them all Smiley

    This is what I was talking about earlier - a Qur'an wiki that shows the classical Arabic text, rasm, exegetical English translation, new translation based on historical/linguistic work by Luxenberg/Dye/etc. and a potential new meaning to the verse and sura.

    It'll be a dissection of the Qur'an using the latest academic knowledge, not stale and compromised Islamic traditions.
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #26 - October 12, 2014, 02:54 AM

    Oh my, I just read some comments on the video yeez linked. This one cracked me up for whatever reason:

    "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah" [Al-Quran]

    It is incredibly frustrating how arrogantly the translations are twisted around once a new discovery is made. The qur'an is full of scientific knowledge, but only after that certain knowledge has been scientifically discovered.  mysmilie_977

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Linguistic miracle.
     Reply #27 - October 12, 2014, 03:16 AM

    It is incredibly frustrating how arrogantly the translations are twisted around once a new discovery is made. The qur'an is full of scientific knowledge, but only after that certain knowledge has been scientifically discovered.  mysmilie_977

    It's even more apparent when you read pre-20th century translations the little edits that go on.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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