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Theme Changer

 Topic: 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK

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  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #30 - August 19, 2013, 11:28 AM

    Well, I'm not sure who this collective "we" you are speaking for in this context is, but I wasn't referring to any group as a whole, simply some individuals I see on this forum who think Dawkins and Snitchens and Harris and all them are awesome and take a similar attitude to them which I don't see as being particularly helpful or principled, just kinda "look at theists/Muslims, they so stupid for believing that shit"

    fuck you
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #31 - August 19, 2013, 11:31 AM


    Yeah I agree it can be rude. Having said that, its always been a part of dissenters to use sharp rhetoric. Even Islamic freethinkers like al-Razi were harsh in their invective against believers. Thomas Paine was a master of invective against Christianity and Christians.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #32 - August 19, 2013, 11:49 AM

    True but I don't think I'd put Snitchens, Harris or Dawkins in the category of one of the greatest polymaths of history or a major revolutionary leader. Dawkins, as far as I can tell, is the only one of them who's contributed anything of substance to society (by way of his evolutionary biology work) other than expression of anti-religious ideas that aren't really new and could be found in any public library in the West long before anybody had heard of them.

    fuck you
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #33 - August 19, 2013, 11:54 AM


    But its not only polymaths and revolutionaries who are free to be sharp in their criticisms of religion. Sharp polemics have their place, in fact I'd say they are sometimes necessary and part of the range of responses that oppressive religious ideas or taboos will inevitably engender.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #34 - August 19, 2013, 12:55 PM

    Again I don't think it's anymore retarded than taking issue with someone who read too many fantasy books thinking dragons are real and purple when we all know it says in the books they're green.


    Umm not sure what the point here is, other than you saying you agree it's equally as retarded as your dragon example, ergo, it is retarded.  Which it is.

    Quote

    Okay but why do you care? If it helps get Muslim society more progressive, so what? I mean it very well may not but at least it's a step in the right direction.



    I don't think it will.  As to why I care?  I care because I believe it misleads people into Islam, they step in at the soft and progressive end, and slowly find themselves drawn into the reality of Islam.  It makes them believe that they can immigrate to a muslim country and find the same values, only to become trapped in dangerous marriages or dangerous situations.

    It provides a continuation of damage to children, who find themselves caught up in the 'to be progressive or not be' dilemma rather than providing them with that tabula rasa from which to face the future.

    It also bolsters false figures conflated with actual belief in Islam, rather than the reality, which is it is NOT a belief in Islam, it is the worship of one's own brand of Islam.

    But care enough to do anything about it?  no.  Other than to call it for what it is, retarded, which to be fair is no less than you call vegetarians, or hippies, or men with socks and sandals.  Do you care?  no.  But you call it how you personally see it.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #35 - August 19, 2013, 02:23 PM

    For some reason I feel like I split the difference on this on. The people who go to these mosques are usually leaning pretty hard to be inclusive so I'm not too worried about people being fooled into fundamentalist Islam.


    2nd in a shaudenfrauden way I think it's wonderfully subversive. I want people who claim to be practicing Muslims to be at least implicitly questioning all the misogynistic bullshit. If it makes them happy while sticking a middle finger to orthodoxy then fine by me. If it makes society overall more inclusive then good.


    but on the other hand it seems a bit demeaning to treat religious people like delinquent children who we need to constant praise for catching up to the rest of the class. For me, it's hard to shake that off. Maybe I'm being a bit fundamentalist in wanting these inclusive ideas to be, a at least reportedly revealed from God, rather than being a self evident adjustment to a slightly more moral precept that certainty didn't appear in the original Abrahamic traditions.


    On the other other hand, what's orthodox now certainly didn't come directly from on high. It was an evolutionary process of orthodoxy pushing out, killing, and dominating other strands. A battle this way, a battle that way and orthodoxy would look different.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #36 - August 19, 2013, 03:01 PM

    Umm not sure what the point here is, other than you saying you agree it's equally as retarded as your dragon example, ergo, it is retarded.  Which it is.


    Point is I have the feeling most people here wouldn't care one bit what the dragon's color in the book is and how it differs from the person who read the book and thinks dragons are real look like, only be flabbergasted they actually believe dragons are real from reading a fantasy book. Excepting perhaps present company since you think dragons are so cool. Tongue

    Quote
    I don't think it will.  As to why I care?  I care because I believe it misleads people into Islam, they step in at the soft and progressive end, and slowly find themselves drawn into the reality of Islam.  It makes them believe that they can immigrate to a muslim country and find the same values, only to become trapped in dangerous marriages or dangerous situations.


    Do you really think this risk outweighs the potential benefits if this does take off and become a larger movement within Islam? And should the hippy-dippy Muslims really have the responsibility of someone making bad, uninformed/misinformed choices?

    Quote
    It provides a continuation of damage to children, who find themselves caught up in the 'to be progressive or not be' dilemma rather than providing them with that tabula rasa from which to face the future.


    Again, the majority of liberally-inclined Muslims are NOT going to become atheist I don't think, nor will they raise their kids without any religious presupposition. Those who will become atheists will do so whether or not liberal alternatives exist, but for those who are desperately clinging to their faith despite liberal beliefs, it provides an alternative. So, yeah, I don't see this as being a good objection.

    Quote
    It also bolsters false figures conflated with actual belief in Islam, rather than the reality, which is it is NOT a belief in Islam, it is the worship of one's own brand of Islam.


    This is assuming that because Islam has remained static or regressive for a century or so that it will remain so. The core texts of Christianity and Judaism have not changed since antiquity and yet Christianity and Judaism themselves have quite a bit. To define someone's religion solely by their adherence to the original religious texts would require writing off the majority of people who identify as Christian or Jewish, at least those in Europe and, to a lesser extent, America. Hell if that's the definition you could make a good argument for writing off the entire Catholic Church as not really Christian (which plenty of fundamentalist Protestants do).

    Religions have ways of reinterpreting ancient scripture to meet the demands of modern society. To assume otherwise for Islam would assume it is not just unique, but so unique that it's not subject to the same rules of history as not only any other religion but any other ideology period-- secular ideologies can be just as fluid or rigid (core, foundational texts of secular ideologies are constantly being reinterpreted to suit modern demands and just like religions, ideologies often split over these interpretations into different sects-- Marxism is an excellent example though by no means the only one).

    Quote
    Other than to call it for what it is, retarded, which to be fair is no less than you call vegetarians, or hippies, or men with socks and sandals.

     

    1. The socks and sandals thing is your own spin, I don't know why you keep saying that. It's open-toed footwear on men period, and I've never called them retarded just merely said the practice should be banned and maybe men who do it should have their feet cut off or something.

    2. I poke fun at veggies but I don't think they're stupid. Now animal liberationists, yes, but far from every veggie is an animal liberationist.

    3. Okay you got me, hippies are idiots.

    Quote
    Do you care?  no.  


    Ah, but here you're wrong. I do care actually. I hate seein men's nasty ass feet; if animal liberationists had their way life saving research on animals would be halted and all of us forced to be vegans; and hippies are annoying and unfortunately I'm surrounded by these morons right now.

    EDIT: Also, what deusvult said, particularly the bit at the end about orthodoxy Tongue

    fuck you
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #37 - October 17, 2013, 11:15 AM

    I think that some of the people who have commented here have overlooked the fact that both Judaism and Christianity now offer a range of approaches, via variou denominations, because other people in past centuries, have fought for change. This has yet to happen in Islam (unless you happen to be an Ismaili). Whatever your religion you should have the right to question its practices and campaign for changes if only to ensure that the liturgy is presented in your own language. We take this for granted in churches in Northern Europe thanks to peole such as Luther and Calvin, even though they would not be considered nowadays to be 'liberal'. Similarly, we have an active Progressive Jewish movement in the UK thanks to reformers in the 19th century and we were the first to give female rabbis their own congregations.

  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #38 - March 04, 2015, 03:56 PM

    Quote
    Radical Pluralism: An Interview with Dr. Amina Wadud

    This Friday 6th March, just ahead of International Women’s Day, the Inclusive Mosque Initiative (IMI), a UK-based group who convene inclusive spaces for worship and community work, have invited Dr. Amina Wadud to lead their mixed-gender Friday prayer (Jummah).

    It’s been 10 years since Dr. Wadud made headlines when she did the same thing in New York in 2005 and became the first woman to lead both men and women in prayer in the global North. Now IMI are continuing the process she started and potentially turning it up a notch. With their ardent approach to ensuring their events are accessible to disabled people and their eagerness to provide spaces where Muslims of all sects, all genders and all sexualities can meet as equals, their work raises questions about what a truly pluralistic Islam looks like today.

    I recently had the opportunity to speak to Dr. Wadud, author of Qur’an and Woman and Inside the Gender Jihad over Skype. She chats causally about her travels to the global south where she feels “indebted to women and oppressed people who take me to task for attempting to perfect an interpretation that might be irrelevant to people’s lives.” She laments the energy she spends in the US “eking out the space between the sort of apologetic neo-liberal articulation of Islam and the conservative projection of Islam. Neither one of which,” she tells me, “is going to push us forward the way we need to go.” I ask her about the liberation theology she’s been working on and what she calls “radical pluralism.” She explains: “the future of Islam means we need to be taking some spiritual-radical, liberal-radical turns at this time in history.”

    Read on: http://mediadiversified.org/2015/03/04/interview-dr-amina-wadud/
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #39 - March 05, 2015, 01:51 AM

    I like this and believe it may be the way forward.  Just as now we refer to ' Greek orthodox' or ' Hassidic'  or ' fundamentalist Christian '  it could be possible, if we continue along this path that a few years from now we are referring to ' orthodox Islam '  and '  Muslim mosque-goers'  and that the former are looked upon as archaistic and the latter as another  religious belief.
    Islam needs it's reformation, and it needs it now.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #40 - March 05, 2015, 02:42 AM

    ^Would you have been convinced by a 'reform Islam', when you were a muslim?
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #41 - March 05, 2015, 03:09 AM

    I tried to be a part of reformed Islam. I loved the concept of being able to keep my faith and reconcile it with morality. But the text is too far from the reform.
    Unless the Quran can be reformed I do not see how it is possible.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #42 - March 05, 2015, 03:34 AM

    the words in the bible and the torah have not changed but people have and those religions in their majority no longer  bay for the words to be taken literally . So yes it is possible, Of course as a confirmed atheist I would prefer the world to give up religious notions, but it takes decades for things to turn and it will be done ,in baby steps , but it can be done.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #43 - March 05, 2015, 03:38 AM

    In my opinion the Quran will not be considered inspired, non-literal, and allegorical any time soon.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #44 - March 07, 2015, 02:32 AM

    As a Christan who took and still is doing studying the bible things are always different once you take time to study them.could not be the same for the quran? Hey wasn't there a online article post that the quran does not condemn gay people?
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #45 - March 07, 2015, 02:52 AM

    Could happen. There's only so long "moderate" can deny that the acts if ISIS etc. are yes ideed sanctioned in the quran, Allah's command and all that. Eventually they will have to own up to the fact they don't follow EVERYTHING in the quran. Once that happens a reformed,  benign islam can emerge. Of course they've had 1400 years of practice dodging,  obfuscating, and misdirecting, so I'm not holding my breath.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #46 - March 07, 2015, 08:52 PM

    Christan more people have been reforming since 1 century. I mean we do have the conservatives in Christianity but most are accepting LGBT and Women rights. This change was quick but than again depending on where you are the church had already accept it  ago time ago. Why is it taking Islam to reform? Is there really no reform Islam?
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #47 - March 07, 2015, 10:12 PM

    Christianity was not skipping along into the enlightenment. The western world had to drag it kicking and screaming. The reason islam has not gone through this is that no one forced islam to reform like the west forced christianity.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2015, 01:46 AM

    Goodpoint. crusaders , the Catholics and the  protestants. Yea, we have problems. All religions have  problems. Even the ones with more of a belief than a  in their religion
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #49 - March 08, 2015, 02:01 AM

    All religions have problems but not the same kinds to the same extent. For instance, no one worries about fundamentalist/extremist jainists or witches.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #50 - March 08, 2015, 03:02 PM

    All religions have problems but not the same kinds to the same extent. For instance, no one worries about fundamentalist/extremist jainists or witches.


    That's because there usually aren't enough of them in one place to cause problems.  Cheesy

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #51 - March 08, 2015, 04:22 PM

    Well the 2011 census showed 75,281 people identify as pagan in England, 4,872 in Wales. Not sure about the figure for Northern Ireland and Scotland but that's a lot of people.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #52 - March 08, 2015, 05:29 PM

    Christan more people have been reforming since 1 century. I mean we do have the conservatives in Christianity but most are accepting LGBT and Women rights. This change was quick but than again depending on where you are the church had already accept it  ago time ago. Why is it taking Islam to reform? Is there really no reform Islam?


    Christianity dropped the idea of literalism, except for certain groups. This why it reformed, without this change in theology it would be in the same boat as Islam today. Quod is 100% right. Many people, including Christians, dragged the dogmatic and doctrine based views into the modern age. It is these concept which need to be rejected for any reform to take place.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #53 - March 13, 2015, 09:45 PM

    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/london.church.criticised.for.holding.muslim.prayers/49681.htm
    Quote
    A church in London has come under fire after holding Friday prayers for Muslims last week.

    St John's Waterloo held the event in partnership with the Inclusive Mosque Initiative. There are accusations that it violated canon law regarding only using authorised worship and Rev Giles Goddard, vicar of the church in Southwark, has been criticised for his closing prayers, which appeared to equate the Christian God with Allah.

    [...]

    Executive secretary of the conservative Anglican Mainstream network Rev Andrew Symes said St John's had broken canon law, but added that it sent a wider message. He wrote that "inclusive mosques and multi faith services are not the actions of prophets but of poodles of the secular liberal establishment" and that the service would offend conservative Muslims.

    He also said "this is not just an act of hospitality. Here Muslims are leading professing Christians in the worship of a deity other than the Trinity inside a church sanctuary. This is not merely an intellectual, theological and missiological question, or an issue of the flouting of church rules. It is, according to Scripture, something offensive to Christ who alone is worthy of worship and prayer."

    [...]

  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #54 - March 13, 2015, 09:54 PM

    ...

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #55 - March 18, 2015, 05:24 PM

    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/no.more.muslim.prayer.services.in.churches.says.bishop/50159.htm
    Quote
    A bishop has investigated the Muslim prayer service that took place in Church of England building in London and has pledged that no such service will take place again. The vicar, Canon Giles Goddard, today apologised for the "great consternation" and for "any offence" caused by the event.

    The Bishop of Southwark, Christopher Chessun, had earlier asked the Bishop of Kingston, Richard Cheetham, to "investigate fully" the service at St John's Church Waterloo earlier this month.

    "The Bishop of Southwark takes very seriously his responsibility to uphold the teaching of the Church and to work within its framework of legislation and guidance. It is quite clear that Islamic prayer should not take place in a consecrated building," said a spokesman for the Southwark diocese.

    Today Bishop Chessun said: "The Bishop of Kingston has, at my request, now met with the Vicar of St John, Waterloo to discuss the Inclusive Mosque event which took place at St John, Waterloo on 6 March. Whilst it is very important to build good interfaith relations, it is clear that an act of worship first rom a non-Christian faith tradition is not permitted within a consecrated Church of England building.

    "The Vicar has issued a statement expressing his sorrow at the offence this has caused and any infringement of Church of England guidelines. He has assured me of his intention to work within these guidelines in the future."

    George Conger on the blog AnglicanInk described how the "jummah" had been held at St John's with the permission of Canon Goddard and organised by the Inclusive Mosque Initiative. The service was led by a woman imam and Canon Goddard read from Psalm 139: "Let us celebrate our shared traditions, by giving thanks to the God that we love, Allah."

    Images and iconography of the Virgin Mary, Jesus and the stations of the cross were covered over during the event, which was videoed and appeared online. As a result of complaints, Canon Goddard met with Bishop Cheetham who is also Anglican president of the Christian Muslim Forum.

    Canon Goddard said in a statement today: "The Inclusive Mosque Initiative event hosted by St John's Church, Waterloo, for International Women's Day has given rise to great consternation, and I am sorry for the offence caused and any infringement of Church of England's framework and guidelines.

    "I am, by faith and tradition, a Christian. I stand by the Church of England's Declaration of Assent: The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation.

    "Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons."

    He said it was in that context that he had tried to build a better understanding between faiths.

    "The Church of England is in an especially responsible position as the established church, with a duty to try to engage with all the people of England. Now, more than ever, it is essential that we are able to meet in friendship across the boundaries of faith, and the event at St John's was part of attempts to enable that to happen. I remain committed to finding ways for Christians and Muslims to acknowledge our shared heritage and history, without minimising the uniqueness of both our traditions.

    "I have assured the Bishop of Southwark of my commitment to work to build good interfaith relations, but to do so within the teaching and guidelines of the Church of England."

    Dr Gerald Bray, director of research at the Latimer Trust at Oak Hill Theological College in London said on Facebook: "The simple truth is that Islam is the only major world religion that is explicitly anti-Christian. The Buddha, for example, could not have known anything about Jesus and did not develop his ideas in contrast to Christ. Muhammad, on the other hand, knew about Christians and Jews and could easily have become one or the other himself. Instead, he concocted his own religion based on elements of Judaism and Christianity and regarded it is the culmination (perfection) of both. You could say that Islam is related to Christianity in much the same way as Mormonism is, but this does not constitute 'a common tradition'."

    Canon Andrew Stevens, of St Nicholas, Plumstead said Anglicans knew Jesus was "the unique and final revelation of God". Covering up the symbols of salvation, in order not to offend or to allow others to worship, was an act of "sacrilege" he added and it was especially an "affront" because it was done by a priest.

    Fr Martin Hislop, of St Luke's, Kingston, said: "At a time when Christian men, women and children are being slaughtered in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Nigeria and elsewhere for their belief in the unique salvation delivered by Christ Crucified it is a scandal and an offence that a clergyman of the Church of England should embrace an act of islamic worship in a consecrated building dedicated to the glory of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

    So it seems the Inclusive Mosque Initiative isn't going to be allowed to pray in a mosque or a church. It's interesting that the Bishop of Kingston who 'investigated' the event is Anglican president of the Christian Muslim Forum. I wonder what other Muslims involved in it would have to say about the IMI - and whether they might gang up with the Evangelicals against it.
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #56 - March 27, 2015, 03:56 PM

    Book dedicated to Amina Wadud: http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/2010/03/A-Jihad-for-Justice-for-Amina-Wadud-2012-1.pdf
  • 'Inclusive Mosque' - gay / woman friendly mosques in the UK
     Reply #57 - March 27, 2015, 04:08 PM

    Just glanced through that, looks interesting.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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