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Theme Changer

 Topic: Arranged Marriage

 (Read 11388 times)
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  • Arranged Marriage
     OP - June 05, 2013, 11:28 PM

    I found this piece today and found it to be quite tragic, and yet I know exactly what she means in several parts. In fact, it's not just Muslim women, but also EX-Muslim women who are still dealing with the same kinds of inner limitations - many who I have met online and offline. The programming goes deep. And it's there, to a lesser degree, in some Muslim men too. This programming isn't limited to just Muslim cultures, but as we are Ex-Muslims here, I know many of us will be able to relate to this, at least in part. I've bolded the parts that most troubled/enraged me.



    Arranged Marriage
    Posted: June 5, 2013

    I am madly in love with a good man.

    Next week, I am going to marry another.

    I have cried more tears this year than I have cried in my entire life. I have been brought so low that I cannot see a way out. I no longer trust my own judgment, my own thoughts, my own brain or heart. I used to be amazing. Now I am a mere shadow of who I used to be.

    You read about stories like this. But you never understand how it could happen now, in the 21st century.  You never imagine it could be you.

    I am crying bitterly, shaking my fist at the sky, and my heart feels it will burst at the injustice of it. I am not being forced into it. Just, you know, bullied, pushed and coerced.

    I know. It sounds like the plot of a torrid Bollywood film, Turkish soap opera, an old black-and-white American movie. But it’s my life.

    I’m no ignorant teenager living in the mountains of Afghanistan or in the deserts of Yemen. I am an educated, worldly woman in my late twenties. I have a Ph.D. I have traveled all over the world, and I have a very successful career. I am independent and I can take care of myself.

    So, how is this happening? The same old story: a family that misuses religion.

    It begins as children when we are taught marriage is our life’s goal.  Sure, you can go to school and pursue a career, but in the end, you must get married. Unmarried women are a burden. A shame.

    People say, “You make your own money? You are fulfilled without a husband and children? Shush. What do you know? We will introduce you to good men. What? You meet good men in your workplace or during your travels? Shame. What would people say?”

    You dare to choose a possible suitor, but he is vetoed if he is not of the same color, caste, nationality, socio-economic status, and/or academic background.

    They say there is no such thing as love. Anything you feel before marriage is a sham and an illusion. God never mentioned love in the Qur’an as a matrimonial pre-condition.

    Women like myself live like strangers in our homes. We spend our lives trying to balance between what our family wants and what we need.  We pray for the day we get married because we aren’t allowed to live alone—we only gain our independence after we marry. So we pray to marry someone like us, although deep down we know our parents won’t approve of someone like us. They want someone like them.

    But, we pray anyway.

    We grew up watching Disney movies. We were programmed to think we should follow our hearts and everything will magically work out. They never told us how horribly scary taking a risk was, because the risks in the Disney universe always, always paid off.

    We. Just. Don’t. Disobey. Our. Parents.

    And these parents — for whom cultural and societal traditions trump religion — then use religion to manipulate you.

    I fell in love with a good man.  Because of my education, I was willing to compromise on social standing, which Islam never dictated as a criterion anyway. Islam said he must have good character and faith, and the couple must be compatible. He did and we were.

    My parents did not approve. In their version of Islam, if parents do not approve of your choice, you cannot marry him.  I want to be a good Muslim.

    I fought, cried and found someone to intervene. I did everything I possibly could to try and get them to change their minds.

    I spent a year being emotionally blackmailed and abused by my family. We fought constantly. I was forbidden to travel and from working. They made my life so horrendous that marriage became the only way to gain my independence.

    So why not pick up and leave?

    I think of myself sometimes as a bird trapped in a cage. I’m so used to living inside it, even though I know it’s a cage, that even if the cage door was opened, I will still stay inside the cage.

    It is deeper and more complex than that: I could never shame my family. Even though they have hurt me more than anything, I still can’t hurt them like that.

    What I can’t withstand is when my family plays with my head. When every single family member, old and young, tries to convince me that I have this world figured out wrong. That marriage is not about love or feelings but about good men and good personalities.

    It tortured me, killed me inside, ripped me in two. I want to listen to them and make them happy. Perhaps they are right. I thought, “I’ve never been married before, what do I know? Maybe their choice will make me happy. After all, it’s worked for hundreds of years. I’m the only one who thinks this way. There must be something wrong with me.”

    They slowly broke me down. But that voice inside of me still said: it’s MY life.

    I turned to my faith, which preaches patience. It tells us that we never know where goodness lies. “You may hate something and it is good for you.” We are to trust in a grander wisdom than our own. If something is not destined, it will never be.

    That isn’t the only reason I caved. The reason I eventually gave in? Other women.

    Women, who, like me, were in love but had disapproving parents.  Women, like me, who eventually married men their parents approved of. You listen to them and hold on to their stories like a life raft. They did what their parents wanted and still managed to live normal lives. Surely if it was so horrible they would tell me not to repeat their mistakes, right?

    The tragic part is I know that if they were still the same women they were before caving, they would never advise me to go through with it. They advise me to cave because caving changed them. They hated themselves and the world when they caved; when they married a man while wanting another with every fiber of their being. They thought they could never reach such a low, but they did.

    The duality of living a life of emotional and spiritual infidelity killed them inside. They realized they’d made an irreversible decision. They had to adapt if they didn’t want to live a miserable life with their fiery rage. They had to lose a part of themselves, perhaps the very best part, and it is in this loss that they are able to continue with their lives. It is because of this loss that they are able to tell other women to embark on the same path.

    I know their loss is the best reason not to follow in their footsteps. But I listen, and I will follow. Because they knew what they were going to lose before they caved, but they did it anyway. There is a comfort in knowing that I will be able to live a normal life even after losing a part of myself.  I will be okay because I will forget what I lost.

    Some days I meekly submit. Other days I am seconds away from heading out of the house and never returning. On all days I am miserable.  On all days I miss the man I love with a ferocious passion.

    In a couple of years, I will be advising another woman in the same position that I find myself in today. I will tell her to listen to her elders, and to follow the rules.

    I am a good woman – one who has never been kissed, who has been saving herself for one man and one man only.

    I love another man. I want his babies.

    Next week, I  will marry another.



    The writer of this piece has chosen to remain anonymous.




    Source



    So, does this resonate with anyone here? I know the parts in bold are exactly the kinds of things I have heard or read from EXMuslim and from Muslim women throughout my life.

    Why should we NOT disobey our parents when they are wrong?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #1 - June 05, 2013, 11:39 PM

    I know you're talking mainly to ex-Muslims, Allat, but this bit resonated with me.
    Quote
    They had to adapt if they didn’t want to live a miserable life with their fiery rage. They had to lose a part of themselves, perhaps the very best part, and it is in this loss that they are able to continue with their lives.

    Arranged marriege is institutionally racist. I don't understand why in the West we don't use this line of attack.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #2 - June 05, 2013, 11:47 PM

    Oh I didn't mean only ExMuslims should respond. Your input is most welcome, David.

    I know you're talking mainly to ex-Muslims, Allat, but this bit resonated with me.Arranged marriege is institutionally racist. I don't understand why in the West we don't use this line of attack.


    Yes it is definitely racist. And it's not just those poor, uneducated third world people who do it.... the author here is a PhD holding, financially independent American Muslimah. Somehow, she still can't think of herself as a full person, she still thinks she can only ever live life inside that cage her parents and community have her in.

    It's just sad and pathetic.

    And then she is admitting that she'll be perpetuating this same bullshit herself in a couple of years.

    I want to feel sorry for her, but somehow, by the end of this piece, I really can't say I do.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #3 - June 05, 2013, 11:59 PM

    Yes it is definitely racist. And it's not just those poor, uneducated third world people who do it.... the author here is a PhD holding, financially independent American Muslimah.

    The very people who, to free themselves from it, might be expected to push the racism angle. Slim chance of their white peers doing so, I fear.

    Quote
    I want to feel sorry for her, but somehow, by the end of this piece, I really can't say I do.

    Nor me. At some stage in life you have to grow a pair (metaphorically of course).
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #4 - June 06, 2013, 01:59 PM

    It is a heartbreaking story, but I agree with you allat. By the end, you really lose the ability to feel sorry for her. It's because she is educated and intelligent enough to recognize her own situation, but she has consciously chosen to side with her family rather than with herself. She has all the tools to escape her oppression, even while remaining Muslim if she wishes (she does say she wants to be a good Muslim, but she also acknowledges that her family's demands are a misuse of religion). She's choosing an intellectual compromise rather than protecting her future. She's willfully taking the coward's way.

    Will she feel her choice was worth it 10 or 20 years down the road, when she's miserable fulfilling her duty as the daughter-in-law to the parents of a husband she doesn't love? When her own parents offer no support and tell her to suck it up because this is how marriage works? When she resents her own children for not being those of the man she loves?

    And how about in 30 or 40 years, when her parents are dead, and she alone faces the rest of her life with a family she never wanted?

    Maybe she'll get lucky, and the husband chosen for her will turn out to be a decent person with a kind family. But that still seems like very little in return for the compromise she is making now. And how will she live with herself knowing she is willing to, and will, send other women to the same fate? Women who, like her, actually have the means and opportunity to escape that fate, unlike so many others?

    I can't tell whether she wants pity or kudos for her "sacrifices" in the name of religion, but the fact she is writing about it with resignation is already influencing other similar minds. She may be independent, she may have a Ph.D and a successful career, but all I see is a weak-willed person trying to gain attention with her self pity. It's offensive to all the other women who work hard to escape the same or worse oppression, and to those who support them.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #5 - June 07, 2013, 08:52 AM

    I want to feel sorry for her, but somehow, by the end of this piece, I really can't say I do.


    Exactly.

    In fact, I think, there comes a time when you have to take a stand, whether you want to spend your rest of your life being miserable in an unwanted marriage, in order to be a good 'muslimah'.

  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #6 - June 07, 2013, 09:01 AM

    I can't tell whether she wants pity or kudos for her "sacrifices" in the name of religion, but the fact she is writing about it with resignation is already influencing other similar minds. She may be independent, she may have a Ph.D and a successful career, but all I see is a weak-willed person trying to gain attention with her self pity. It's offensive to all the other women who work hard to escape the same or worse oppression, and to those who support them.


    Exactly.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #7 - June 08, 2013, 12:32 AM

    Yeah what you guys said...I am dying to be in that position, financially, just to be able to move away from this heart ache.
    Quote
    I am an educated, worldly woman in my late twenties. I have a Ph.D. I have traveled all over the world, and I have a very successful career. I am independent and I can take care of myself.

    Like a slap in the face, an "anti role-model". I would give anything to make time speed up so I can be there. Trade places with me if you don;t bother taking advantage of your privileges.
    Quote
    kudos for her "sacrifices" in the name of religion

    Exactly my thoughts, and oh, the amount of girls that follow this cycle. All around me, educated, beautiful, financially independent, masters, phd - then end up as unseen and unheard women. What is the point then? So you can stare at your degrees and gloat at your "knowledge"?

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #8 - June 08, 2013, 04:06 AM



    I want to feel sorry for her, but somehow, by the end of this piece, I really can't say I do.


    Phew, as I was reading I was thinking to myself 'am I supposed to feel for her', which I wouldn't have been able to.  Then I saw the following replies and realised I wasn't alone in finding it hard to sympathise.  I can't even sympathise with my own ridiculous choices of the past, forsaking freedom for the sake of family whilst living in, and being raised in a society where I knew better.  Let alone sympathise with someone who has a PHD, where at least i can say I was uneducated prior to making so many retarded choices.

    It might not have been so bad, if she wasn't admitting she knew she would become one of those women, who in bitterness for dreams tossed aside, would advise others to do the same.

    But one thing that strikes me most about the 'caste' part of some of these arranged marriages, is that it's actually unislamic, it's cultural, so it's not even religious bonds that tie her, it's something less than that. :/  or maybe more than that, maybe culture ties bonds tighter than religion.

    Either way, I hope somehow for her own sake, she is able to stand up to the part inside her that is giving in, and that is accepting the bed her culture says she must lie in.




    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #9 - June 08, 2013, 08:42 AM

    Quote
    I’m no ignorant teenager living in the mountains of Afghanistan or in the deserts of Yemen. I am an educated, worldly woman in my late twenties. I have a Ph.D. I have traveled all over the world, and I have a very successful career. I am independent and I can take care of myself.


    That's right! You have something that some girls facing arranged marriage doesn't have. And you won't do anything about it. :/

    Quote
    My parents did not approve. In their version of Islam, if parents do not approve of your choice, you cannot marry him.  I want to be a good Muslim.

    If you want to be a good muslim, follow the real islam instead of the cultural mixed version they follow!

    Quote
    I am not being forced into it. Just, you know, bullied, pushed and coerced.

    Eh, she's an independent adult and she still tolerates that shitty treatment? Can't the family get jailed for harassment? It just seems like a forced marriage to me.

    Quote
    It tortured me, killed me inside, ripped me in two. I want to listen to them and make them happy. Perhaps they are right. I thought, “I’ve never been married before, what do I know? Maybe their choice will make me happy. After all, it’s worked for hundreds of years. I’m the only one who thinks this way. There must be something wrong with me.”


    NO!NO!NO! Parent's don't always know best. What if their choice doesn't make you happy at all?

    Quote
    I spent a year being emotionally blackmailed and abused by my family. We fought constantly. I was forbidden to travel and from working. They made my life so horrendous that marriage became the only way to gain my independence.


    Seriously! That is imprisonment! I'm sure that's illegal.
    -
    Overall yes it's hard to fell bad for the girl, but I still kinda do because she's just scared and really, really care about making her family happy. But it doesn't seem like they care much about her. I just wish she would stand up for herself and take a stand for all those other girls who aren't as fortunate as she is.

  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #10 - June 08, 2013, 08:34 PM

    You got to cross the Rubicon eventually, but most people from such cultures (Indian/Pakistani in my experience) are simply too scared and comfortable with their incestuously close emotional relationships with their family groups that they can't make the leap. Too bad.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #11 - June 08, 2013, 09:19 PM

    Arranged marriege is institutionally racist. I don't understand why in the West we don't use this line of attack.


    Yes it is definitely racist.


    As much as I hate the institution of arranged marriage, I have to say that this is the first time I've really come across such a criticism. Ethnocentric sure, but a raciially motivated, really?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #12 - June 08, 2013, 11:25 PM

    I weep for the fact that my niece will have her marriage arranged for her to some guy from Pakistan or of Pakistani descent, most likely.  The most I hope for is that it won't be a cousin marriage as her parents are already first cousins.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #13 - June 09, 2013, 12:12 AM

    As much as I hate the institution of arranged marriage, I have to say that this is the first time I've really come across such a criticism. Ethnocentric sure, but a raciially motivated, really?

    I despise the phrase 'institutional racism' and was using it slightly mischievously. But arranged marriage has a case to answer, surely.

    And what is ethnocentricity but a fancy word for racism?
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #14 - June 09, 2013, 12:24 AM

    It is racism/xenophobia against all non-Muslim/non-Indian looking people, ensuring that spouses look 'right' with the 'right' views cause a non-Muslim/non-Indian looking person isn't seen good enough and may be perceived as dirtying the family line. 
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #15 - June 09, 2013, 12:37 AM

    yeah just a few days ago my mom was getting emotional on the phone with some relative saying as soon as my sister gets into first year uni and some religious guy sends a proposal she will accept.

    Stuff like that pisses me off to no end. Like WHAT THE FUCK!!

    I want to tell my mom " She is your daughter!! not some loan you have to repay in order to increase your stupid fucking so called honor"

    She kept talking as if my sister was some burden that she wanted to get off her head and give off to some religious guy. .

    I  guess will have to stay with this family for at least long enough to keep my insane mother from marrying my sister off to some salafi douchebag. My salafi relatives in Pakistan who keep encouraging my mother to marry my sis off to some religous guy as early as possible is really not helping the situation and is just causing my hatred for them to increase.

    When the time comes I am 100% sure my sister is going to get an arranged marriage(she'll willingly marry whoever my parents tell her to marry) so the best I can do is just pressure my dad into arranging her marriage with a normal person instead of some bearded lunatic.



    Sorry for the rant. Just needed to release my emotional frustration.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #16 - June 09, 2013, 12:41 AM

    It's okay DarkRebel, *Hugs*  far away hug.

    Have you talked to your sister to see how she feels about it all?
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #17 - June 09, 2013, 04:12 AM

    Institutional racism - and all forms of institutional discrimination - are very powerful and important concepts that allow the status quo of assumptions, emotional blackmail, habit to be blown out of the water as they deserve. 

    These are not individual battles with one's own family.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #18 - June 09, 2013, 04:25 AM

    As much as I hate the institution of arranged marriage, I have to say that this is the first time I've really come across such a criticism. Ethnocentric sure, but a raciially motivated, really?


    One of the litmus tests of racism is cross racial marriage.  If that is a serious no no, then it is racism, just seen as another term by those doing it.  It's still racist though.

    'I'm not racist, many of my friends are *insert race* but I can not marry *insert race*' << racist.   Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #19 - June 09, 2013, 04:39 AM

    One of the litmus tests of racism is cross racial marriage. 

    Exactly. And in Britain it's Caribbean black and working-class white people who most commonly pass the test.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #20 - June 09, 2013, 09:39 AM

    We. Just. Don’t. Disobey. Our. Parents.

    ...unless they are selfish assholes who continue to treat you like some child even when you're an accomplished adult. Elevating parents to God status all the time is such a toxic concept. Your parents are just people, and like other people they are the product of their environments. You can't expect them to change easily but you can't let them take over your life with such poisonous traditions. FFS someone needs to shake the shit out of her. She needs to stop the self-pitying, she is not helpless. She is perfectly capable of saving herself and surrendering without a fight when the door to freedom is wide open for her pisses me off. Promising the rest of her life to someone she doesn't love is only the first in a plethora of demands her parents will make.

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #21 - June 09, 2013, 10:09 AM

    Couldn't have said it better. Unfortunately such parents are a dime a dozen among Pakistani, Desi and Muslim families in general. As well as many conservative non-muslim parents.

    It's hard living among and tolerating such people but I do plan on leaving as soon as I have the means. But it's my sisters I worry about. They've never even had an iota of freedom, and the freedom I know they crave won't ever come their way if they don't make plans and take some sort of initiative when their older.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #22 - June 09, 2013, 10:11 AM

    One of the litmus tests of racism is cross racial marriage.  If that is a serious no no, then it is racism, just seen as another term by those doing it.  It's still racist though.

    'I'm not racist, many of my friends are *insert race* but I can not marry *insert race*' << racist.   Wink


    But it's not so much the race as the total cultural homogeneity that's requisite. It just so happens to be an effect of that extremely selective criteria that the race of 80% of the world's population ends up being excluded. An analogy would be of a person who will only marry Olympic medalists in sprinting, there ends up being a total racial correlation, but racism is NOT the cause of problem.

    Edit: Not saying that Indian and Pakistani muslims aren't racist, btw. Seen too much of evidence of human nature to think something absurd like that. Only pointing out that the motivation is to create a cultural control more than anything else.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #23 - June 09, 2013, 10:58 AM

    It is still in effect racism though cause it is saying those not of my race haven't got the right culture and therefore it is xenophobic as well.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #24 - June 09, 2013, 07:33 PM

    Unfortunately racism is far too prominent in the Muslim culture, whether it is said out loud or not. It is not the religion per say, but it is the culture. My parents still refer to Americans (I live in the US) as them, or they. The like to differ themselves from the people they live along with which in my opinion is completely wrong. We are the same.
    As of the issue of arranged marriage I think it is completly ridicules at this century to marry someone without actual emotional attachment to them. My family is a prime example of a Islamic marriage gone wrong, I mean the two just hate each other. I cannot comprehend how people still follow the restrictions of yesteryears.

    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #25 - June 09, 2013, 10:13 PM

    For me, she is describing in what in my eyes is a forced marriage. Bullying, pushing, coercing & emotionally blackmailing is in essence forcing in a non physical manner. All the arranged marriages, in recent times, that I've personally been aware of  in my extended family and other families I've known in the UK, where the girl or guy is born and raised in the west, did not have these pressures placed on the girl or guy but I guess there still must be a lot of backward families out there that I don't have much contact with. Arranged marriages can work well for many people especially for those who struggle to find someone themselves but they should not come with any emotional pressure or coercion.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #26 - June 13, 2013, 08:21 AM

    ...unless they are selfish assholes who continue to treat you like some child even when you're an accomplished adult. Elevating parents to God status all the time is such a toxic concept. Your parents are just people, and like other people they are the product of their environments. You can't expect them to change easily but you can't let them take over your life with such poisonous traditions.


    That was a great way to describe this situation.  Afro
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #27 - June 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

    ...unless they are selfish assholes who continue to treat you like some child even when you're an accomplished adult. Elevating parents to God status all the time is such a toxic concept.Your parents are just people, and like other people they are the product of their environments. You can't expect them to change easily but you can't let them take over your life with such poisonous traditions


    Afro

    This is the issue i tend to have with a number of my cousins, well in their case its not really arranged marriage but more of a pressure by their parents and relatives when its not what they really want for themselves yet they cant say no to them because they believe they have the best interests for them ergo they are right.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #28 - June 13, 2013, 02:38 PM

    I despise the phrase 'institutional racism' and was using it slightly mischievously. But arranged marriage has a case to answer, surely.

    And what is ethnocentricity but a fancy word for racism?


    what do you call a fulani-hausa muslim family that rejects a non-fulani-hausa even though they are muslims?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Arranged Marriage
     Reply #29 - June 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

    As much as I hate the institution of arranged marriage, I have to say that this is the first time I've really come across such a criticism. Ethnocentric sure, but a raciially motivated, really?

    It seems to me to be textbook racism. The principle, forefront, top-of-the-list definition of racism. The idea that one's own 'kind' is best and non-kind are unfit for a thing or inferior in some way. In this context, ethnocentric seems to be a distinction with no difference.

    But it's not so much the race as the total cultural homogeneity that's requisite.

    What do you mean by race, then? Visible physical distinction? Because race (and racism) in common parlance is usually pertaining to a wide range of cultural, linguistic, ethnic, biological indicators. A white British person could be racist against white Polish immigrants, but they'd never even know them to be Polish unless they had an accent or spoke Polish or disclosed that they were Polish.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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