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 Topic: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.

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  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #60 - August 25, 2013, 04:37 PM

    looking for a loving god and finding Allah can be pretty disappointing..


  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #61 - August 26, 2013, 10:06 AM

    happymurtad,

    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".

    You can't close your eyes, stick fingers in your ears, and simply deny that fact.

    I promise you this: if a close family member is on the verge of death, and you are powerless to help or save them, you, happymurtad the proudly cerebral atheist, will get your knees and beg God for help.

    There's a reason why the statement :"there are no atheists in foxhole" has an equivalent in almost every language.

    We hunger for God, even when He does not (immediately) answer.
    We hunger for God, even when we do not understand Him and His judgements.
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #62 - August 26, 2013, 10:24 AM

    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans.

    Don't be silly.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #63 - August 26, 2013, 10:34 AM

    happymurtad,

    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".


    Actually, most anthropologists would argue that this is not the case. All humans have a spiritual impulse in that they will attribute natural phenomena to a supernatural (spiritual) agency. This may not be a God but to spirits, an energy field or other such delusions. Whilst the concept of a God is not prominent amongst all cultures, some sembelance of the supernatural is. The reason for this maybe neurological, (up for debate), but there is no doubt that 'the God impulse' is sociological.

    Religion is a social phenomenon and not a biological one (in terms of origin).

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #64 - August 26, 2013, 10:44 AM

    It's worth pointing out that "God", in the conventional Abrahamic monotheistic sense, is little more than 2,500 years old. Anatomically modern humans have been around for approx 200,000 years.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #65 - August 26, 2013, 11:46 AM



    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".

    .


    Quite simply this is not true. I never had it, and I know a number of others who didn't either.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #66 - August 26, 2013, 11:48 AM



    I promise you this: if a close family member is on the verge of death, and you are powerless to help or save them, you, happymurtad the proudly cerebral atheist, will get your knees and beg God for help.



    Been there. In that situation I never begged for god. Again, I'm not alone in this.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #67 - August 26, 2013, 11:49 AM



    There's a reason why the statement :"there are no atheists in foxhole" has an equivalent in almost every language.



    Tell that to my uncle. Even on his death bed, when he knew he most likely wouldn't see the next week, this didn't happen.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #68 - August 26, 2013, 12:12 PM

    happymurtad,

    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".

    You can't close your eyes, stick fingers in your ears, and simply deny that fact.

    I promise you this: if a close family member is on the verge of death, and you are powerless to help or save them, you, happymurtad the proudly cerebral atheist, will get your knees and beg God for help.

    There's a reason why the statement :"there are no atheists in foxhole" has an equivalent in almost every language.

    We hunger for God, even when He does not (immediately) answer.
    We hunger for God, even when we do not understand Him and His judgements.


    And equating mental turmoil with allah is just farcical. I could do the same with Jesus, or Brahman, or Tengri. The desire for a supernatural force during periods of great distress is supra-historical, yes, but that does not validate the existence of said supernatural force ipso facto.

    By all means adopt a posission of ontological deism but you're intelligent enough to see that anthropomorphic Allah is an incoherent and inconsistent construction. Don't disappoint me, old chap.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #69 - August 26, 2013, 01:59 PM

    happymurtad,

    There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".

    You can't close your eyes, stick fingers in your ears, and simply deny that fact.

    I promise you this: if a close family member is on the verge of death, and you are powerless to help or save them, you, happymurtad the proudly cerebral atheist, will get your knees and beg God for help.

    There's a reason why the statement :"there are no atheists in foxhole" has an equivalent in almost every language.

    We hunger for God, even when He does not (immediately) answer.
    We hunger for God, even when we do not understand Him and His judgements.


    I have loved and lost, my friend, both as a believer and as an atheist. While the former experience left many unanswered questions, anxiety about punishments in the hereafter, and plenty of room to question God's sense of mercy, the latter only made me happier an Abrahamic god does not exist.

    I'm being honest with you right now; this is not merely for the sake of debate.

    Death has always played prominently in my life. I've lost best friends, brother in laws, nieces, aunts and uncles, grand parents, and my own dad. I would never wish a god like Allah on any of them.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #70 - August 26, 2013, 03:29 PM

    Quote
    Death has always played prominently in my life. I've lost best friends, brother in laws, nieces, aunts and uncles, grand parents, and my own dad. I would never wish a god like Allah on any of them.


    Hear hear my brother, hear hear.  clap

    I've lost my father and so wish that I could see him once again. But I can not drown myself in the illusion of Allah and live in fear of the fact that if my father be in Paradise that i may not see him or that if I am in Paradise and search for him that he may not be there. The mental anguish is just too much as it appears that Allah does His appointments based upon Will.

    No rhyme, no reason.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #71 - August 27, 2013, 04:31 PM

    I have loved and lost, my friend, both as a believer and as an atheist. While the former experience left many unanswered questions, anxiety about punishments in the hereafter, and plenty of room to question God's sense of mercy, the latter only made me happier an Abrahamic god does not exist.

    I'm being honest with you right now; this is not merely for the sake of debate.

    Death has always played prominently in my life. I've lost best friends, brother in laws, nieces, aunts and uncles, grand parents, and my own dad. I would never wish a god like Allah on any of them.


    My most heartfelt condolences for the loss of your loved ones. It's something terrible that nobody should ever have to go through. But we all will. Such is the cruelty of life.

    I too have lost loved ones. One in particular stands out and is the reason for my earlier claim, that most humans, atheist or not, will turn to God in moments of great fear, especially as it relates to a loved whom you are helpless to save.

    She was on the verge of death. There was a small glimmer of hope, that she just might make it. I seized on that hope and ran with it. What did I do? Almost unconsciously, I went to a secluded room, got onto my knees and literally started bargaining with God, begging God: "Please take me instead. If you have to take someone, take me. In anyway you see fit. Let her live. Please. Please. I'm begging you."

    Keep in mind that at the time, I was even further from God than I am now(if thats even possible). I wasn't an atheist, but nor was I a practicing Muslim. Didn't pray. or Fast. Or have any reason to remember or think of God. Was leading quite the hedonistic lifestyle. But at the moment, with that minuscule glimmer of hope, I got on my knees, instinctively, in a form of utmost helplessness and humility, and started bargaining and begging with God, the God of Abraham. Yahweh. The Great Spirit in the Sky. He goes by varying names and different descriptions, but there is a single unifying definition that transcends culture, religion,:

    -He who you pray to when you're scared shitless and are at your weakest.
    -He who you pray to when you're caught at sea in a storm and gigantic waves . (an example that is mentioned repeatedly in the quran for a good reason: it's an experience, and an absolute truth, that transcends cultures and religions.)
    -He who you pray to, even if you are a proud disbeliever, when your 8 month infant catches a high fever and doctors tell you there is nothing further they can do, and you have to sit there listening to his agonizing yelps of pain.

    That is God. That is the instinctive hunger for an All-Powerful Deity that almost every human acknowledges, even the most hardcore deniers when that moment of truth comes knocking on their door. Yes, maybe you'll deny it, deny Him now in the comfort of your current existence , but bro, I pray to Allah that you do not ever have face a situation where you are reduced to helplessness and you have nothing to offer but tears and snot dribbling down your face.......because that day will be the day that you raise your eyes to to the sky and start begging and bargaining.

    In my case, it didn't work. My prayers, my bargaining, my begging didn't work.  But the process of prayer certainly helped. And not because of that stereotypical "I'll get to see her again in the hereafter", but the actual prayer to God, the actual begging, the acknowledging of how helpless and weak I am and the instinctive hungering for my Creator in this moment where no else could help.

    Can you honestly watch this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sS-JmL40QQ ...............

    ......... and reach the conclusion that a hunger for God and begging God is not a universal constant throughout different time-eras, religions, and cultures? That somehow athiests and freethinkers, and "rational people" are immune to the "silly"(as Ishina put it) notion of a God?

    For more exposition, the father in that clip is a super-prideful atheist who not only doesn't believe in God but has spent much of his life hunting and torturing the faithful believers as an SAVAK-office in the Shah-era Iran. Then he joins the Iranian secular exodus post-'79. Nothing changes. He's still a hardass. still atheist. still a prideful "intellectual". Until that day when bitter fate catches up to him and he realizes he isn't as secular and as rational as he thought he was. He gets on his knees, makes sujood, starts begging with unrestrained grief.

    I respect your beliefs as an atheist; but please, do not claim that even in a situation like that your "godlessness" will still hold strong, because fate might just decide to test you as it tested Colonel Massoud Amir Behrani.........and brought him to his knees.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #72 - August 27, 2013, 04:47 PM

    Your problem seems to be that you just do not listen to people. You don't even care to understand the atheist experience. You just bark at people, telling them what they think and getting it wrong.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #73 - August 27, 2013, 06:52 PM

    I guess you reckon I’m bluffing when I tell you that I don’t believe in gods. Or perhaps you think it’s just a passing, ill considered phase that I’m going through. I’m not sure.

    I tend to find the only way to get across to people who question my stances is to point out just how not worried you are about other deities that you don’t believe in. Imagine me saying that at the cusp of an unfortunate loss, I could guarantee that you would call out to the dark mother Kali.

    Pause for a moment to consider all of the rebuttals that you would give me. They are the same rebuttals I would give you. You qualifying your god as the God of Abraham or the God who I call to in a storm does nothing to change the fact that you are invoking a specific deity that you have conjured.

    Now, I don’t blame you for believing in your god. I’m sure you have plenty of reasons that make sense to you, and honestly, it does not much bother me at all. I don’t blame the crow for being afraid of the scarecrow. I understand why it is.

    But you have to be willing to understand that other people view the world differently and have reached different conclusions from you. They are just as firm and sincere in their beliefs as you are in yours.

    I’m not some angry teenager who stumbled across a Richard Dawkins book one day and decided to rebel against religion.

    I am a man. I am a father. I have been to more places than I can count and I have interacted with more intriguing people than I can remember. I spent many nights alone in my mind with my own conjurings of Allah—enough to know that he existed only there. I spent plenty of days walking in the footsteps of the Prophet—enough to know that he is not a fitting guide.

    When I tell you that I don’t believe in your particular god, or in any particular god, I mean it with every morsel of my being. My life is lived with the belief that there is no god. My losses are endured with the belief that there is no god. My good times are celebrated, my love ones are loved, my smiles are smiled and my tears are shed all with the conviction that there is no god. And as I constantly live with the reminder that my time is limited, I anticipate my own death—as it surely will come—with the complete assurance that there is no god.

    Please do try to understand this.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #74 - August 27, 2013, 06:53 PM

    Can't see the clip, company blocked it in my country on copyright grounds.

    The thing is I understand your description perfectly. Holding someone in your heart to the point if you could choose you would take their place.

    There's a film called the Invention of Lying. It's set in a world where humanity never evolved the ability to lie. Everyone is honest. there's no tall tales, no religion, no fairy tales, no falsehood. Just brutal honesty. Then one day there's a man, and some wires cross in his brain, and he can lie. The first person in all human history to have this ability. There is no word for lie. And because of this, any lie he tells is automatically taken as truth. One day, he visits his dying mother and to comfort her he creates religion. It's a very moving scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXYvwEeWrm8

    It's not that we're immune to it. We feel the same helplessness. We feel the same need to do something, anything. And I speak as someone who has been in this situation. I never prayed because I don't think there's a god. It would be akin to praying to fairies at the bottom of the garden, it just wouldn't occur to me. But I hoped. And I wished I could take their place.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #75 - August 31, 2013, 10:09 AM

    "Can't see the clip, company blocked it in my country on copyright grounds."

    Use Proxtube, it'll allow you to view any blocked/restricted content
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #76 - August 31, 2013, 10:21 AM

    " I spent many nights alone in my mind with my own conjurings of Allah?enough to know that he existed only there. I spent plenty of days walking in the footsteps of the Prophet?enough to know that he is not a fitting guide.

    When I tell you that I don?t believe in your particular god, or in any particular god, I mean it with every morsel of my being. My life is lived with the belief that there is no god. My losses are endured with the belief that there is no god. My good times are celebrated, my love ones are loved, my smiles are smiled and my tears are shed all with the conviction that there is no god. And as I constantly live with the reminder that my time is limited, I anticipate my own death?as it surely will come?with the complete assurance that there is no god.

    Please do try to understand this. "

    This part resonated. Thanks for writing it. And I do understand it. But for me personally, I cannot accept it......even if it is true.

    If there is no God or no HereAfter, then arguably, everything my life and the lives of billions of people of different faiths is built on is lie. If after death, we merely turn to sand and dust................

    If there is no God or no HereAfter, who do you pray to at moments of great need and great affliction? Who do you seek comfort and succor from? A government entity? Your fellow man?

    There has to be a God, bro. It just has to be. Because if there is no God, then life, all of life, from the dawn of human written history until now is one big fat fucking joke.

    And because, in part, the fact that my psyche cannot afford to accept that life is a fat fucking joke, I choose to believe.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #77 - August 31, 2013, 11:07 AM

    That's fine, it really is, but why is all life a joke? I don't think my life is a joke, I think I'm so luckly to be here, so lucky to be alive, and arguably if there is no god life is even more precious. I don't ask this out of hostility, and from our posts and PMs so each other I would hope you view me as an honest man and will take me at face value when I ask you, why is my life and the lives of those I love a joke?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #78 - August 31, 2013, 11:59 AM

    QSE,

    It's probably an American-ism, but when we say something is a joke, we don't mean it's literally a joke. It's an expression used to convey frustration at an impossibly or bitterly sardonic situation. In this case: the notion that there is no God or a HereAfter.

    I'm sure your life and the lives of other atheists has value and meaning. All life has value and meaning. All life is sacred, both in the secular sense, and for those of us believe, in the religious sense.  But what I'm referring to as "a joke" are the ramifications that arise from the "there is no God" statement. This will mean that there is no hope of ever reuniting with your loved ones again. This will mean that, far from being higher-level creatures infused with spirituality , we are merely primate mammals only a few chromosomes removed from barking or braying or ape-ing. And as such, we should have no qualms walking the streets nude, and if we feel like it, rutting in coitus in public, because hey, there is no God and morality is a human construct used to shame us from acting out on our natural biological urges. If it feels good, and hurts nobody, we should do it.

    And so on and so forth. If God does not exist, life becomes a bitter joke. We humans = bacteria, fungi, flora, fauna. No more, no less.

    So He HAS to exist. He MUST exist.
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #79 - August 31, 2013, 12:35 PM

    But for me personally, I cannot accept it......even if it is true.

    If there is no God or no HereAfter, then arguably, everything my life and the lives of billions of people of different faiths is built on is lie. If after death, we merely turn to sand and dust................


    No, because a 'lie' presupposes a meaning of sorts. Life is meaningless. Both your average atheist and a sufi influenced by Ibn Arabi and Yunus Emre would concur with this assessment.

    If there is no God or no HereAfter, who do you pray to at moments of great need and great affliction? Who do you seek comfort and succor from? A government entity? Your fellow man?


    No, suffering is something that must be affirmed. You're suspiciously starting to sound like a Christian Tongue. But if necessary, I seek comfort in my fellow man or mankind as a supra-historical entity.

    There has to be a God, bro. It just has to be. Because if there is no God, then life, all of life, from the dawn of human written history until now is one big fat fucking joke.


    Ontologically perhaps. But as soon as you start conflating a transcendent being with space and time (which islam must do to survive) you conceive of more questions than you answer.

    And because, in part, the fact that my psyche cannot afford to accept that life is a fat fucking joke, I choose to believe.

    51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

    Couple this verse with qadr and life is still a fucking joke. Hence the Jabariyah secht.

    Quote
    Al-Jabiriyah are of the opinion that humans have no control over their actions and everything is dictated by Allah. The other group is Al-Qadiriyyah (not to be confused with the Sufi order, Al-Qaadirriyah) and they are of the opinion of humans having complete control over their destiny, to the extent that Allah does not even know what we will choose to do. The Sunni view is in the middle between these two views, where they believe that Allah has knowledge of everything that will be, but that humans have freedom of choice.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam

    The Jabariyah view is the only coherent one, even if we account for quantum indeterminacies. The orthodox sunni view/Asharite theological position (codified by Al-Ghazzali) is untenable whichever way you look at it. I'm not even going to go into the herecies of the qadariyah.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #80 - August 31, 2013, 01:50 PM

    Seeker. I can completely respect what you just said, as it is something I remember thinking myself initially. I think it is a fairly common sentiment when someone is faced with such a cataclysmic change of perception, meaning, and purpose. I honestly haven't thought about it in a while, but here is a post that I wrote that expresses an acknowledgment of a similar idea.

    The simplistic argument for the need for “justice” screams out to me that this quote is a fake. Why do people have such a problem accepting that life is not fair? Belief in an Islamic-style after life does nothing to solve this problem either. In fact, for most of the world’s downtrodden, oppressed and miserable humans, this life is INFINITELY better than what awaits them in an Islamic afterlife. From the untouchables of India to the homeless of Chicago, nothingness would be an infinitely better state after death than jahannam.

    What did trouble me, as I began to loose my faith in God, was not the problem of injustice, but the idea of not being witnessed. It was (and sometimes still is) hard
    for me to fathom the idea that through out all of the absolutely amazing and awe inspiring things that have happened since the Big Bang, as far as we know, we are the only ones intelligent enough to appreciate any of it. And we have only begun to do so, and only recently. From the destruction of stars to the formation of planets, none of it really mattered to anyone or anything, until now. We are the only ones capable of even noticing. And if we were to one day go the way of the dinosaurs, either by way of a rogue comet or through our own destructive devices, there would be no one out there to care. The universe would continue on, unnoticed, just as it had for 14 billion years before us. To me, that is mind blowing.  



    Also, there is a thread somewhere out there (I couldn't find it) in which people make some great points as to why religions actually devalue human life and take away meaning. If everything is just a huge vanity project for an all powerful god who completely doesn't need us, then none of our great achievements as a species matter. Everything  will just be destroyed on judgment day and billions of lives will be wasted in hell. That's not comforting at all.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #81 - August 31, 2013, 02:07 PM

    QSE,

    It's probably an American-ism, but when we say something is a joke, we don't mean it's literally a joke. It's an expression used to convey frustration at an impossibly or bitterly sardonic situation. In this case: the notion that there is no God or a HereAfter.

    I'm sure your life and the lives of other atheists has value and meaning. All life has value and meaning. All life is sacred, both in the secular sense, and for those of us believe, in the religious sense.  But what I'm referring to as "a joke" are the ramifications that arise from the "there is no God" statement. This will mean that there is no hope of ever reuniting with your loved ones again. This will mean that, far from being higher-level creatures infused with spirituality , we are merely primate mammals only a few chromosomes removed from barking or braying or ape-ing. And as such, we should have no qualms walking the streets nude, and if we feel like it, rutting in coitus in public, because hey, there is no God and morality is a human construct used to shame us from acting out on our natural biological urges. If it feels good, and hurts nobody, we should do it.

    And so on and so forth. If God does not exist, life becomes a bitter joke. We humans = bacteria, fungi, flora, fauna. No more, no less.

    So He HAS to exist. He MUST exist.


    I hadn't read this part yet when I told you I could respect what you said. I can't respect this part at all. Cheesy No offense.

    Why is it a bad thing that our morality is derived from within? It clearly is. Our concepts of right and wrong change with time, as we discussed before.

    Why is it a bad thing that we are primates? I think it's pretty cool. We are literally related to all forms of earthly life. We share a connection, a common home, a common need for our resources, a common need for things to remain sustainable. That is pretty awesome, in my opinion. I honestly find our evolution to be far more amazing and awe inspiring than any creation story.
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #82 - August 31, 2013, 02:42 PM

    QSE,

    It's probably an American-ism, but when we say something is a joke, we don't mean it's literally a joke. It's an expression used to convey frustration at an impossibly or bitterly sardonic situation. In this case: the notion that there is no God or a HereAfter.

    I'm sure your life and the lives of other atheists has value and meaning. All life has value and meaning. All life is sacred, both in the secular sense, and for those of us believe, in the religious sense.  But what I'm referring to as "a joke" are the ramifications that arise from the "there is no God" statement. This will mean that there is no hope of ever reuniting with your loved ones again. This will mean that, far from being higher-level creatures infused with spirituality , we are merely primate mammals only a few chromosomes removed from barking or braying or ape-ing. And as such, we should have no qualms walking the streets nude, and if we feel like it, rutting in coitus in public, because hey, there is no God and morality is a human construct used to shame us from acting out on our natural biological urges. If it feels good, and hurts nobody, we should do it.

    And so on and so forth. If God does not exist, life becomes a bitter joke. We humans = bacteria, fungi, flora, fauna. No more, no less.

    So He HAS to exist. He MUST exist.


    Hmm. Your problems aren't limited to reading and comprehension, are they?

    Whether God exists or does not exist changes nothing insofar as morality is concerned. A hereafter does, but only in as much as God himself is an indeterminate.


    Moron.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #83 - August 31, 2013, 02:53 PM

    Seeker to believe in a creator doesn't necessitate Islam though, your statements sound like an agnostic view.

    Why is atheism concept of nothingness etc the only alternative to Islam? I'm not saying go join another religion because most don't make sense to me, I'm just wondering what is it that holds you to Islam, why must Islam be the truth?

    By the way I'm in a similar situation as you but my brain is numb and lack the ability to think or rationalize things related to religion at the moment, so I  can't answer my own questions but its stuff I ask myself. Like personally it makes sense to me that there is a creator or there is a possibility of something, I wouldn't be able to say I have enough evidence to plainly say I know there is no God, but if that's the case, I end up going round in circles about purpose and moral guidance etc, but if its not definitively clear which religion, how do we know that God wanted us to follow one? What if God isn't as involved or connected with us as we happen to think he should be. I don't know, sorry, my own lost state makes me go into the possibilities of anything to try and make sense of things.

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #84 - August 31, 2013, 09:25 PM

    […]If God does not exist, life becomes a bitter joke. We humans = bacteria, fungi, flora, fauna. No more, no less.

    So He HAS to exist. He MUST exist.

    Sorry, is your argument really that since you don't want something to be true, therefore it can't be true ?
    Woah. I'm pretty sure that we are still primate mammals, and that the social conventions that dictates what we should wear and when we should do coitus are arbitrary social construct that vary from society to society, and are obviously man-made rather than of divine origin. And reality don't give a damn about if you like it or not. Reality is really mean, ain't it ?
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #85 - August 31, 2013, 10:05 PM

    Do you or do you not wish to commit suicide? Huh?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #86 - September 01, 2013, 12:13 AM

    Jedi,,

    You seem like a nice enough fella, but based on your last post, I gotta say this man: Go fuck yourself six ways to Jummah.

    Yi Sun Sin,

    So since you are a primate mammal and since morality is a man-made social construct, you wouldn't mind, if you had the urge, to copulate in full view of the public with your wife while shopping at your local Tesco, amirite? For argument's sake, let's say the law allows you that and you won't get in trouble for it. So you're walking down the dairy aisle, and then BAM, like a female dog in heat, your fellow primate mammals, you are seized with the urge to rut. So you get down to business right then and there in the dairy aisle while schizo who is also shopping looks on nodding in approval,

    Obviously this is a exaggerated hyperbolic example, but can you understand why the general public has a very dim and negative view of atheists?  I mean, since you believe there is no difference between you and animals mating in the mud......most humans regardless of race or faith would view you with disgust and revulsion.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #87 - September 01, 2013, 01:14 AM

    Seeker, are you saying that without religion, you cannot have morals? Also, I feel like you are saying that since I am an atheist, urge fulfillment is first, while morals come second. Since I am atheist, if I want to fuck a girl even if my son is with me, I'll do it, right in front of him (he's 9 by the way) because there are no ramifications.

    He knows what I formerly and currently believed. I told him he has my unwavering support regardless of what he believes.  His views of god are turning out like mine. This is due to the fact I'm a full time single dad and me & my son are extremely close. Seeker, do you see something wrong in this, where I am trying never to influence his beliefs? I am not asking these questions facetiously.  I am genuinely a bit confused as to what you are getting at.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #88 - September 01, 2013, 01:21 AM

    Jedi,,

    You seem like a nice enough fella, but based on your last post, I gotta say this man: Go fuck yourself six ways to Jummah.

    Yi Sun Sin,

    So since you are a primate mammal and since morality is a man-made social construct, you wouldn't mind, if you had the urge, to copulate in full view of the public with your wife while shopping at your local Tesco, amirite? For argument's sake, let's say the law allows you that and you won't get in trouble for it. So you're walking down the dairy aisle, and then BAM, like a female dog in heat, your fellow primate mammals, you are seized with the urge to rut. So you get down to business right then and there in the dairy aisle while schizo who is also shopping looks on nodding in approval,

    Obviously this is a exaggerated hyperbolic example, but can you understand why the general public has a very dim and negative view of atheists? I mean, since you believe there is no difference between you and animals mating in the mud......most humans regardless of race or faith would view you with disgust and revulsion.


    Go fuck yourself six ways to jahannam. Seriously, just because you have a feeling or want certain things to be true, doesn't mean they actually are. You can't wish things true. The only people I have ever met who view athiests like this are very religious.
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #89 - September 01, 2013, 01:40 AM

    Seeker, are you saying that without religion, you cannot have morals? Also, I feel like you are saying that since I am an atheist, urge fulfillment is first, while morals come second. Since I am atheist, if I want to fuck a girl even if my son is with me, I'll do it, right in front of him (he's 9 by the way) because there are no ramifications.

    He knows what I formerly and currently believed. I told him he has my unwavering support regardless of what he believes.  His views of god are turning out like mine. This is due to the fact I'm a full time single dad and me & my son are extremely close. Seeker, do you see something wrong in this, where I am trying never to influence his beliefs? I am not asking these questions facetiously.  I am genuinely a bit confused as to what you are getting at.


    I think you're reading too much into what I wrote, and you're coming up with conclusions that I never implied let alone stated. I clearly wrote: "obviously this is a exaggerated hyperbolic example".

    On another thread, i stated that I believe that morality comes from within, so we're not far apart. Where we differ is your rejection of religion and any role it might have in regulating social and moral conduct.

    Also I've stated on numerous occasions that I have respect for all human beings regardless of their belief-systems or lack of belief-systems.

    Relax, and let's have a virtual non-alcoholic drink to break the ice and minimize any tension arising from misunderstanding.
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