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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.

 (Read 26775 times)
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  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #120 - September 21, 2013, 07:33 PM

    Check your PM's. Looking forward to a purely technical (not moral — because I'm not a moralist) theological discussion.


    I'm all up for technical theological discussion; but make sure you've done your homework and don't rely on Orientalist trope.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #121 - September 21, 2013, 07:48 PM

    It's not that your sign was anything convincing. We both know it wasn't. It's that you want to believe. You NEED to believe. That is what comforts you. I for one would take no pleasure in taking your comfort away. Be happy, seeker. Be happy.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #122 - September 21, 2013, 07:50 PM

    Speaking personally for myself I didn't scoff at all reading that. If your faith is restored and this brings you happiness, I truly do wish you well. I would ask that you remember this time in your life in the future. Too many theists of all types look down their noses at people losing belief or that have no belief. End of the day, for better or worse, we're all human.

    Best wishes mate, if this brings peace to your life I really am happy for you.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #123 - September 21, 2013, 08:07 PM

    It's not that your sign was anything convincing. We both know it wasn't. It's that you want to believe. You NEED to believe. That is what comforts you. I for one would take no pleasure in taking your comfort away. Be happy, seeker. Be happy.


    It's not that your sign was anything convincing. We both know it wasn't. It's that you want to believe. You NEED to believe. That is what comforts you. I for one would take no pleasure in taking your comfort away. Be happy, seeker. Be happy.


    Pray tell, friend, what sign would you, happymurtad, be convinced by? Maybe you would ask for visual proof of God Himself? But if you were granted that proof, maybe you would say that you're schizophrenic and you can't trust your eyes and that you need another form of proof. It's kinda hard to have a honest discussion with "you people" when you discount and discredit any experience that doesn't meet your lofty self-referential standards.

    It was raining. hard. If I got soaked, important documents would be ruined, not to mention me being miserable. I asked for a sign; and a sign was delivered to me; not in the form I wanted or wished for(rain stopping immediately) but in another form that solved two problems: problem a) hardworking man doesn't have rent for the night, but has an umbrella he doesn't want and doesn't mind the rain problem b) miserable man on the verge of losing his faith asks for a sign and a way out from this rainy predicament

    Solution:
    - guide Man A into the path of Man B.
    - inspire Man B to reach out(hail) to Man A.
     - And the rest is Providence as we know it.

    How is that not convincing, o ye of little faith?
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #124 - September 21, 2013, 08:08 PM

    Speaking personally for myself I didn't scoff at all reading that. If your faith is restored and this brings you happiness, I truly do wish you well. I would ask that you remember this time in your life in the future. Too many theists of all types look down their noses at people losing belief or that have no belief. End of the day, for better or worse, we're all human.

    Best wishes mate, if this brings peace to your life I really am happy for you.


    Thank you, mate. I really appreciate that. And I wish you like-wise.

    Peace on earth, goodwill to all mankind. 
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #125 - September 21, 2013, 08:29 PM

    I'm all up for technical theological discussion; but make sure you've done your homework and don't rely on Orientalist trope.


    This is fine by me. Although I find it hard to be convinced that matters of logic are somehow orientalist Tongue
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #126 - September 21, 2013, 08:45 PM

    There we go, I've got the ball rolling.
    Interested to hear your thoughts on al-mujbira and jabr.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #127 - September 21, 2013, 09:31 PM

    Pray tell, friend, what sign would you, happymurtad, be convinced by? Maybe you would ask for visual proof of God Himself? But if you were granted that proof, maybe you would say that you're schizophrenic and you can't trust your eyes and that you need another form of proof. It's kinda hard to have a honest discussion with "you people" when you discount and discredit any experience that doesn't meet your lofty self-referential standards.

    It was raining. hard. If I got soaked, important documents would be ruined, not to mention me being miserable. I asked for a sign; and a sign was delivered to me; not in the form I wanted or wished for(rain stopping immediately) but in another form that solved two problems: problem a) hardworking man doesn't have rent for the night, but has an umbrella he doesn't want and doesn't mind the rain problem b) miserable man on the verge of losing his faith asks for a sign and a way out from this rainy predicament

    Solution:
    - guide Man A into the path of Man B.
    - inspire Man B to reach out(hail) to Man A.
     - And the rest is Providence as we know it.

    How is that not convincing, o ye of little faith?


    Dude. I really mean it when I say, "be happy."

    Life is short. Find what makes you happy and do it.

    It really doesn't help me at all to see you struggle with your faith. Honestly, if we just met on the street or in a bar or at a Starbucks and you told me your faith was restored because of what happened to you, I'd just smile.

    To me though, I'm more inclined to view things through my own set of lenses. To me, the only people I'd really expect to see out walking in a storm like the one you described would be someone with car trouble or someone seriously strapped for cash. The fact that they would cross paths and that both would be willing to agree on a trade only strikes me as normal. But that's just me.

    A few months ago, just before my birthday, my check engine light came on in my car. It's a fairly newer model, so I was surprised and upset, but I had to get it fixed in order to renew my plates that expired on my birthday. Every place I looked to get it fixed quoted me a charge of over a hundred dollars just to do a diagnostic test. There was no telling how much the repair would be. I had no other choice, so I was prepared to cough up the money.

    A few weeks prior, a good friend of mine, who is actually a theist, had a dream that I was her personal shaman. lol. No joke. She said I was supposed to give her advice and she would end up helping me some how.

    As it happened, I did end up giving her some really helpful advice about some relationship issues she was having.

    The morning I was planning to take my car in, she called out of the blue to tell me about this really awesome mechanic who just fixed her AC for free. Long story short, she recommended me to the guy and it turns out there was just a tiny plastic valve that had come loose on my car. He set it straight for 10 bucks. We joked that her dream must have been true. Now, had I really believed in shamans, I'd call that a sign.

    But the problem with that line of thought is that it is entirely subjective. We see what we want to see, even when it's not there. The truth of the matter is that good things happen to good and bad people. So do bad things.

    How many prayers went unanswered that same day in Syria and in Baghdad and in Chicago? How many families were left with their bad days only turning worse?

    And what of the man who sold you the umbrella, if Islam really turns out to be true? Such a hard life, yet what awaits him on judgment day?

    For me, disbelief works so much better. It makes way more sense. I accept it as true. For you, belief works better. I promise you I won't get in your way.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #128 - September 21, 2013, 10:54 PM

    Seeker - apologies for thinking you were someone else, spidey senses out of sync, anyways have you had a go at HM's post on the front page or so of this website. Care to give it a go.

    I should link it. But front page.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #129 - September 22, 2013, 09:01 AM

    Pray tell, friend, what sign would you, happymurtad, be convinced by? Maybe you would ask for visual proof of God Himself? But if you were granted that proof, maybe you would say that you're schizophrenic and you can't trust your eyes and that you need another form of proof. It's kinda hard to have a honest discussion with "you people" when you discount and discredit any experience that doesn't meet your lofty self-referential standards.

    It was raining. hard. If I got soaked, important documents would be ruined, not to mention me being miserable. I asked for a sign; and a sign was delivered to me; not in the form I wanted or wished for(rain stopping immediately) but in another form that solved two problems: problem a) hardworking man doesn't have rent for the night, but has an umbrella he doesn't want and doesn't mind the rain problem b) miserable man on the verge of losing his faith asks for a sign and a way out from this rainy predicament

    Solution:
    - guide Man A into the path of Man B.
    - inspire Man B to reach out(hail) to Man A.
     - And the rest is Providence as we know it.

    How is that not convincing, o ye of little faith?


    Because allah's qudrah could also mean that the inverse applies.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #130 - September 22, 2013, 08:15 PM

    It's not that your sign was anything convincing. We both know it wasn't. It's that you want to believe. You NEED to believe. That is what comforts you. I for one would take no pleasure in taking your comfort away. Be happy, seeker. Be happy.


    HM, you're always spot on  Afro
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #131 - September 22, 2013, 08:19 PM

    Pray tell, friend, what sign would you, happymurtad, be convinced by? Maybe you would ask for visual proof of God Himself? But if you were granted that proof, maybe you would say that you're schizophrenic and you can't trust your eyes and that you need another form of proof. It's kinda hard to have a honest discussion with "you people" when you discount and discredit any experience that doesn't meet your lofty self-referential standards.

    It was raining. hard. If I got soaked, important documents would be ruined, not to mention me being miserable. I asked for a sign; and a sign was delivered to me; not in the form I wanted or wished for(rain stopping immediately) but in another form that solved two problems: problem a) hardworking man doesn't have rent for the night, but has an umbrella he doesn't want and doesn't mind the rain problem b) miserable man on the verge of losing his faith asks for a sign and a way out from this rainy predicament

    Solution:
    - guide Man A into the path of Man B.
    - inspire Man B to reach out(hail) to Man A.
     - And the rest is Providence as we know it.

    How is that not convincing, o ye of little faith?


    Seeker, until and unless you can prove that this event is somehow connected to Allah listening to your prayers, I don't see how you find this convincing at all. You see and attach meaning to what you want to see. Arbitrary premises lead to arbitrary conclusions. When you focus on a pixel on a computer, you will see nothing but the pixel, and not, of course, the millions of other pixels surrounding it.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #132 - September 22, 2013, 08:21 PM

    I'm glad you found what you were seeking. Everyone's finding their happiness but me, I want to be happy, I just don't know where it lies!

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #133 - September 23, 2013, 03:38 PM

    Pray tell, friend, what sign would you, happymurtad, be convinced by? Maybe you would ask for visual proof of God Himself? But if you were granted that proof, maybe you would say that you're schizophrenic and you can't trust your eyes and that you need another form of proof. It's kinda hard to have a honest discussion with "you people" when you discount and discredit any experience that doesn't meet your lofty self-referential standards.

    It was raining. hard. If I got soaked, important documents would be ruined, not to mention me being miserable. I asked for a sign; and a sign was delivered to me; not in the form I wanted or wished for(rain stopping immediately) but in another form that solved two problems: problem a) hardworking man doesn't have rent for the night, but has an umbrella he doesn't want and doesn't mind the rain problem b) miserable man on the verge of losing his faith asks for a sign and a way out from this rainy predicament

    Solution:
    - guide Man A into the path of Man B.
    - inspire Man B to reach out(hail) to Man A.
     - And the rest is Providence as we know it.

    How is that not convincing, o ye of little faith?


    In addition to the point I made about Allah's qudrah, I find this really demeaning to allah. You're essentially arguing along mu'tazilite lines where god acts in time and listens to prayers. A god who depends on humanity for determining the future is not a god worth worshipping!

    On the contrary, only the dahriyyah can truly be muslim. To truly be muslim you have to transcend the ideologically and morally constructed self. I don't act for big dude in the sky (which any serious learned muslim would reject — I'd say 0.5% of the entire learned islamic population is actually serious, rest just obey a herd mentality) and act for the sake of divine affirmation. Acting for jannah/jahanam is just  dishonest.

    In this regard, folk islam (which can be seen in some anatolian communities) is truer to the dahriyyah spirit than the hyper-kafir sheikhs.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #134 - August 16, 2014, 04:50 PM


    Over a year later...............................and I still have exact same raging doubts that refuse quit, that refuse to be quelled.

    Ramadan 2014 came and went: didn't pray, didn't fast, didn't pay zakat-ul-fitr.....

    Am I still a Muslim?

    I wish I was, I wish I am..

    wishes, horses, beggars, ride.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #135 - August 16, 2014, 05:20 PM

    Seeker! What up, bro? Good to see you are still kicking.

    You can only be what you are, man. Any God who is a god worth believing in would know exactly why you are the way you are. He would understand your thoughts, your deeds, and your story and I can’t imagine him being upset over the conclusions you reach in the life he put you in. Whatever you believe, just try to do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Try to study the world around you and reach conclusions based on the intellect that you were given by whatever caused you to be here.

    I’m afraid that is the best any of us can do. And I’m afraid that is the most any respectable God could ask from us.  
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #136 - August 21, 2014, 05:37 AM

    Missed this. Welcome back Seeker.

    I'm sorry you're still experiencing this sense of turmoil. The catholics refer to it as the Dark Night of the Soul.

    I was happy for you when you said you'd found your faith again. I truly was. But I'm wondering if you've reached a point where you have to accept it's a thing of the past.

    A life without islam doesn't mean a life without god. The options available to you aren't islam or atheism. You can reject religion without rejecting god, assuming you haven't in fact done so.

    I really do hope to hear from you soon. far away hug

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #137 - September 11, 2014, 04:27 PM

    I just got here from another thread, can't believe I missed some incredibly beautiful writing here.

    That long dark night of the soul is a horrible thing to face by yourself. I've had a few crises of faith starting from my teens, flipflopping from casual non-practice to praying hard for Allah to forgive my chowing down on that pepperoni pizza (and back again), but time has shown me the way. I've seen family members and close friends retreat into Islam as they get older but I can't do that; I can't deceive myself any more because the more I learn about the natural world, the less I see a reason for a deity to be behind it all, let alone one whose commandments arose from the murky past of 7th century Arabia.

    Reason leads to wisdom and hopefully, that'll lead to acceptance. You are who you are, with or without a god to obey.
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