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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.

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  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     OP - May 28, 2013, 02:56 PM


    In fact, so lost that I wanted to make "Lost" my user name, but decided against it. Seeker sounds more optimistic. What am I seeking? Answers to painful questions

    Am I a Muslim?

    Can one not believe in the some of the core beliefs of Islam and still be a muslim?

    If there is no God, then what is the meaning and purpose of life?

    My story(long read, so I appreciate your patience if you read it all)

    - grew up in your typical conservative South Asian Muslim household. Memorized a good portion of the Quran; learned Arabic as an adult and speak/understand it better than most Arabs I've met.

    - was genuinely religious growing up, and by genuinely, I mean I had zero doubts  and accepted everything about Islam including the controversial parts. Was happy. Was spiritual, and by that, I mean, I found spiritual elevation and fulfillment in Islam and practicing it to the best of my abilities.

    Currently I

    - don't pray..... haven't prayed regularly for most of the past 8 years.

    - don't fast..... haven't fasted Ramadan for the past 4 years

    - don't pay Zakah

    - consistently(at least once a week, if not more) have doubts about Islamic theology, practices, up to and including the veracity of the Quran and the existence of Allah.

    - definitely don't believe in: magic, evil eye, jinn, slavery, sainthood, muslims being morally superior to non-muslims, the romantic narrative of the golden age of Islam where everything was perfect.

    - don't go to Eid prayers or Friday prayers or Taraweeh prayers......at all.

    That said, I still lead a conservative 'muslamic' lifestyle. No drinking, partying, and sowing my wild oats. For example, I just bought a house using a mortgage with a sweet riba rate. Yes, I consider riba to be haram, but riba is also a integral part of modern society and the world we're living in would be impossible without it. So, I rationalize that it's a necessary evil. Cognitive dissonance much?

    How did I get to this point? I don't know.......it just.......sorta........happened. Like a corrosive acid eating away at metal, my faith gradually withered away.....or has it? I'm not sure, which is why I'm here. Hoping to find some answers.

    Because....even though I don't pray or fast, even though I have doubts about the Quran, Hadiths, and God Himself....even though I find myself laughing and shaking my head at the absurdity, and futility of some 'muslamic' beliefs and practices.....

    even with all of that...deep down inside...I consider myself a Muslim. I identify as a Muslim.  My eyes(and heart) light up(with admiration and good-will) when I see a fellow Muslim praying namaz in public. On more than one occasion, I would even join them in prayer right there in public, even though I don't pray in private. Same thing when I see a hijabi walking down the street. I feel compelled to rush over and give my salaams. Admiring her devotion and courage in wearing such a visible article of faith.(even tho I wouldn't want my wife to wear one...or would I want her to wear it ? not sure. sometimes i do, sometimes i don't. ) Not only that, but most of the time, when I'm not caught up in (blasphemous) reflection, I feel a deep sense of Emaan, of faith, of spirituality, of the true and timeless nature of the noble message of Islam, of love and devotion to Allah and His Oneness.

    ...but I still don't pray. It's not that I don't want to, but that I can't do it consistently. God knows how many times I've tried and failed to pray regularly. I've literally stood up to pray, and I wasn't able to. Not because I don't believe, because I do believe, but because...........I can't.

    So, like, doubleyoo-tee-eff.....what am I? Muslim? Muslim in name only? Cultural Muslim? Agnostic Muslim?

    Yes, I know that, politically speaking, the concept of Muslim Ummah is non-existent and all of the caliphates, emirates, and sultanates were simply ethnic empires who used Islam as a effective tool to gain and wield power ...but that doesn't stop me from grieving and feeling genuine sadness and solidarity with the muslims being massacred in Myanmar. If there were muslims that lived in Mars, I would feel a genuine sense camaradie and solidarity with them as well. I know that many (rich, elite) Arabs oppress and enslave non-Arabs(guest workers, marginalized minorities, etc), but that doesn't stop me from beaming and smiling when I hear someone speaking in Arabic, the language of the Quran. When I read the Quran, I gain a genuine sense of inner peace and satisfaction....it's bliss...sublime bliss.

    Notice that I'm using the word genuine alot. It means something I personally believed in and personally feel, as opposed to something I've been told to believe in. There is no indoctrination here. Even as a kid and a teenager, I believed in Islam intellectually, and my parents encouraged rational thought and logical deduction. So, caught up as I am in the maelstrom of doubt & disbelief, I still genuinely feel Muslim....even though I don't pray or fast, and continuously reflect on blasphemous thoughts.

    So, again, am I Muslim? Would you, ex-muslims or not, consider me to be a Muslim? I alternate between moments of great spiritually, strong faith in Allah and Islam.....and moments of what can only be described as "I don't believe in this baloney"

    And then, I found CEMB.....................and was spellbound. I remember reading Hassan's auto-bio in a single sitting, going over some passages twice and even 3 times. Ditto happymurtad's posts, I could've sworn he was writing about my experiences, doubts, and life events. There was a another member who's nick escapes me who's life story was similarly fascinating, he was of Jamaican heritage but grew up in the UAE, had a crazy authoritarian father.

    And so, while I identified greatly with all of these people's stories....I didn't reach the conclusion they reached, that Islam is not for them. Yes, I am floundering in a sea of doubt and (unrelated) depression...some days are pure mental misery and anguish, but......I still believe. I still have faith in Rabul 3alimeen. Or do I? If actions speak louder than words and professions.......am I just lying to myself and to the rest of the world?

    All of this confusion came to a sharp point when I inadvertently blurted out to older person that I had not prayed for the past year and he responded: Do you still consider yourself to be Muslim?

    That question hit me like a thunderbolt. Of course I consider myself to be a Muslim, being Muslim is the core of my identity, and it means more to me than my manhood, ethnicity, and nationality. but since I'm not doing the basic bare minimum required of every Muslim, do I have the right to call myself one? If I am (sometimes) doubting the Quran, and by extension, God, can I call myself a Muslim?

    I don't know. What I do know: I love Allah. I love Islam. I want to be a Muslim. But it seems like my faith has been tested, and it's been found wanting. I'm terrified, scared shitless, about losing my faith.....have I already lost it? I don't know. Has there been a "veil put on my heart"? I don't know. What I do know is that I no longer believe in a fundamentalist interpretation; the Islam I believe in is the Islam of Ra7matan lil 3alimen. An Islam that is flexible, not rigid; progressive, not reactionary; puts human life and humanity above theology and dogma. That's my Islam.


    Other things about me:

    - Suffer from chronic unrelenting major depression, not sure if it has something to do with my ongoing doubting woes. 

    - in my early 30's, single, no wife(phew) or kids(double phew).... doubt started in early to mid 20s, but didn't intensify and overwhelm until the past few years.

    Thanks for reading. I welcome any and all comments and input, including blunt ones. Nothing better than straight talk.

     thnkyu all.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2013, 03:30 PM

    Hi Seeker,

    Thanks for your post. I'm new myself here, and not quite sure where I stand. While I don't have the same background and therefore not the same experiences (I'm an ex-convert, or convert, or maybe-ex-convert?), a lot of what you say reflects my personal feelings about Islam. The difference is that I don't feel connected to Islam or Muslims at all, only to some of the core beliefs and the belief in one God. As I was reading your post, I couldn't help but ask myself whether you are afraid of losing a sense of belonging and purpose, rather than losing your beliefs? Religion can become the one thing that we think defines us, whereas really, the question is what do you want to define you, it's about your choices. If you feel Muslim in some way (and I think I know what you're saying), then that's ok. You don't need to pressure yourself to be one way or the other, black or white. I've come to learn through my own journey that there are lots of shades of grey (no pun intended), and that it's ok to be within those shades of grey, just as it's ok to be green, red, purple, or a rainbow  Wink I can only imagine it must be more difficult for you coz you're surrounded by Muslim family and friends (I guess?) whereas as a convert it is easier to just step away and live your life the way you used to before you converted to Islam.

    I feel similar to you in that I don't know whether I'm Muslim or can call myself Muslim. But I know that I don't believe in a lot of the things you were talking about in your post, like the dcotrines, rules, interpretations, some practices...

    You say that you love Islam and Allah and want to be a Muslim. But if you realy wanted to, wouldn't you find it easier to practise the religion and have less doubts? Not sure if I'm just ignorant here, but that's how I personally see it. When I had doubts, they got more and more and at some point, I decided to really sit down with myself and evaluate my own beliefs and doubts. I spent about 3 months mostly alone and just thinking about it (I'm a very outgoing person and normally socialise A LOT) and allowed myself to explore those doubts instead of oppressing them or fighting against them, and you know what, that's when I found myself again.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Seeker, welcome to the forum  Afro

    The words you said about finding this forum to be so helpful to you is really good to hear! We exist to be a place where people going through what you are going through can find a place of understanding and support.

    And your story is very familiar to everyone here  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2013, 04:23 PM

    Hi there!

    From everything that you said, it sounds like you have a sense of "islamonationalism". A friend told me I had that after I told him I feel hurt by the wars in the middle east and whatnot.
    He mentioned about a dozen other non Arab non Muslim wars that are going on.
     I don't know about those because I have not been acquainted with that information but it definitely puts things into perspective.
     All my life I was told about wars against Muslims and a West vs Muslims setting. What about the others though?

    I already had a deep sense of solidarity with indigenous Australians. I am not indigenous. I don't believe in their religion. Just because they are oppressed it doesn;t mean their religion is true. But it does not lessen the truth of their oppression. I guess the conclusion is that the world is effed up, that's all. I guess Muslims got put in the spotlight because of the war on terror and the 9/11 thing was huge.

    But what about Islamic sectarianism? Muslims fighting against each other, since the start of Islam. How lucky are we to be living freely under secularism?

    Anyway welcome, I enjoyed your intro. Hope you like it here Smiley



    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2013, 04:57 PM

    Salaam seeker,

    I read through your intro and I can relate very well to the sentiments that you expressed. Take your time. There is no rush. Identify yourself with in whatever way you think best describes you at this particular time in your life. Follow your own heart and reach your own conclusions. So long as you are content within your own self, and so long you don’t seek to bring harm to others, not much else matters.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2013, 05:00 PM

    Absolutely agree with happymurtad  yes
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #6 - May 29, 2013, 12:37 AM

    Hello Seeker and welcome...

    Strangely, I can relate to your intro... I say strangely because I was never a Muslim. Was born in a christian family, had some strange dreams that I later related to Islam, had a strong feeling I'd know someone who would change my life, knew a Muslim guy who happened to be this someone... Then considering converting to Islam and even changing my name because my name is blasphemous... Read the quran, starting listening to nasheeds... Realized Islam is a fraud... And here I am.

    I've always been against many aspects of the "west world" and still am today, which is probably why at one point I believed that Islam would be a great alternative...
    That said, I still lead a conservative 'muslamic' lifestyle. No drinking, partying, and sowing my wild oats. For example, I just bought a house using a mortgage with a sweet riba rate. Yes, I consider riba to be haram, but riba is also a integral part of modern society and the world we're living in would be impossible without it. So, I rationalize that it's a necessary evil. Cognitive dissonance much?

    Except for the "wild oats" this is exactly the way I live... which doesn't make me a "muslamist"... I'm strongly against "riba", too. Which, then again, doesn't make me a Muslim. I don't think "riba" is a "necessary evil". I think it is an immoral practice. Sure the world we live in and modern society would be impossible without it, but that doesn't make it right. This modern society and this world must change. Are we going to put sharia instead? Hell no! But the fact that we create money based on debts and throw tons of food when they're not bought in the supermarket has to change.

    See, it is possible to uphold certain islamic principles (which aren't exclusively found in Islam anyways) without being Muslim, islamist or whatever you wish to call it. If I am against Islam, I am also agains capitalism and the way of life of the West. I like to refer to a quote from Richard Dawkins to explain what I think about it all: "The war between Good and Evil is really just the war between two evils." That's how I see it. A fictive war, each camp pretending to be the "Good" when in reality both have evil in it.

    You know, even if I criticize Islam and am against religion, I still am attached to Islam at some points. First, because it all relate to my "personal story" even though I never converted finally (I like to call myself a "ex-future-convert" to refer to the fact that I was near enough to conversion, even though I don't think I would have converted anyways since it's against my reason, logic, and my old good friend, Doubt...). Second, I still listen to nasheeds everyday... actually when I listen to music, 98% of the time it's nasheed... lol. Nasheed songs are the reason I'm sometimes happy Islam exist.

    Quote
    I don't know. What I do know: I love Allah. I love Islam. I want to be a Muslim. But it seems like my faith has been tested, and it's been found wanting. I'm terrified, scared shitless, about losing my faith.....have I already lost it? I don't know. Has there been a "veil put on my heart"? I don't know. What I do know is that I no longer believe in a fundamentalist interpretation; the Islam I believe in is the Islam of Ra7matan lil 3alimen. An Islam that is flexible, not rigid; progressive, not reactionary; puts human life and humanity above theology and dogma. That's my Islam.

    I don't love Allah because he's a crual god. I don't love Islam, though it exerces on me a kind of indescribable magnetism. I wouldn't want to be a Muslim, when seeing how women are depiceted in the quran. But I still sometimes think about putting on some muslim clothes, one day, just one day long, to see how it "feels".
    And when I read "An Islam that is flexible, not rigid; progressive, not reactionary; puts human life and humanity above theology and dogma. That's my Islam.", I swear, it made me cry. At some points in your intro I was retaining my tears, but when reading this sentence it just went off my eyes... I hate Islam but, I can't tell you why, I still sometimes think about adopting this kind of Islam??! Even though it irritates me so much when Muslims try to rationalize Islam with this kind of discourses when we clearly see in the quran that this is not the case and that Islam is against Humanity as a whole. Oh well, I guess we could call it non-orthodox Islam, or "personal non-dogmatic Islam"... I guess we could as well pretend that Muhammad was inspired by God, but that some information went through his own perception/ego/subconscious and was deformed because just like us he was a faillible human being. But then, what would be the point of calling it Islam anymore? I don't know...

    I feel like I am having the same issues as you, at some points, but on another perspective: that of a anti-west and anti-islam non-muslim almost-future-converted/ex-future-converted... My only advice to you is: take in consideration that those are only labels. "Muslim" is only a label. And you can define yourself however you wish too. Isn't "Allah" the only one able to judge who is a "true Muslim" and who isn't? This is my only response to those who pretend that Mr. X or Mrs. Y are "not true Muslims".

    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #7 - May 29, 2013, 12:41 AM

    Can one not believe in the some of the core beliefs of Islam and still be a muslim?
    technically one can label themselves by any religion, without having to believe in its claims, unless of course if u're from the ahmedi sect and live in pakistan.

    If there is no God, then what is the meaning and purpose of life?

    there doesn't have to be an ultimate purpose/meaning to life, it's merely human egocentricity which wants to attach ultimate purpose to their conciousness. There is no demonstrable purpose.

    I myself wouldn't want someone else to dictate my purpose to me, that's very jujune and childish, and you end up looking like a kid asking mummy, "why do I this" "why do we have to this" etc.  One can and should decide how to give meaning to their own lives rather then live in an external authoritarian system, where one essentially reduces them selves to being a mental slave. What can be an individuals meaning? it can be yoga, veganism, feminism etc, but the most liberating thing is one gets to choose for himself(long as they don't break the law)
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #8 - May 29, 2013, 01:23 AM

    Hello, Seeker.
    So, again, am I Muslim? Would you, ex-muslims or not, consider me to be a Muslim?
    […]
    That question hit me like a thunderbolt. Of course I consider myself to be a Muslim, being Muslim is the core of my identity, and it means more to me than my manhood, ethnicity, and nationality. but since I'm not doing the basic bare minimum required of every Muslim, do I have the right to call myself one? If I am (sometimes) doubting the Quran, and by extension, God, can I call myself a Muslim?

    Does it really matters if you “have the right” to call yourself a Muslim ? I do think that the real important thing is what you believe, how you live, and how you feel with both previous points ! If you are fine with the way you live, it's really no problem whether you are Muslim or not. Especially since almost no matter what, some people will still consider you Muslim, and others will say that no, you are not a true Muslim. On the other hand, if you are also torn on those points, then there is the real problem imho. And it's not going to be easy for us stranger to solve it grin12. I think the other may be better at it than me, because they may have had experienced similar situations.

    By the way, I don't know what exactly you mean by “conservative 'muslamic' lifestyle”, but if it doesn't go as far as some no-music super-hardcore stuff, I may also live one even though I've never been Muslim, religious or even really conservative : I'm a 26 years old virgin who never eats haram food (because I'm vegetarian, I don't want them to kill the poor piggy !), hardly ever drink alcohol (only for social reason, i.e. for instance when my grand-mother insist that I take a glass of champagne or stuff like that. Never by own initiative, and usually less than a full glass. I actually don't like the taste of it), …
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #9 - May 29, 2013, 02:25 AM

    You sound like a nice bloke, Seeker. That's a pretty good place to start.

    I'm not sure the rest of it even matters. Maybe you're trying to make everything matter too much.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #10 - May 29, 2013, 03:06 AM

    There is no God. God is just in the imagination of men. Happiness is the only purpose of life - be happy and make everyone around you happy, enjoy your life and your family and friends. Be honest with yourself. Be yourself. Do what is compatible with your thinking. Serve others - humans and animals to the best of your ability. Treat every human being equally, irrespective of what one believes in or not.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #11 - June 06, 2013, 11:08 PM

    Thank you all for your responses. I wasn't able to reply for a while(...that awkward moment when a family member peeks over your shoulder while you're on CEMB  whistling2..)

    This website: http://skepticshaykh.com/ seems to have crushed the last bit of faith I've had. And Shaykh Sceptic does it with a polite, gentle touch. No posturing, no finger-pointing, just solid reasoning and friendly logic which he wields to devastating effect.

    Oh how the 'mighty' have fallen. From my uber-judgemental Salafist past.....to this?

    Snippets from my past:

    - I remember arrogantly looking down on a young muslim for combing his prayers one time at night, instead of praying each prayer on time Here I am intentionally not praying for most of the past 8 years

    - I remember meeting another muslim at work and judging him because he was eating during Ramadan. Here I am not even bothering to fast

    Whatever you do, whatever you believe never be judgmental or prideful(towards others), tends to have a never-fail karma'tic boomerang effect.

    That said, I'm still lost. I still desperately want to believe. But every time I read any critique of Islam, the Quran, and the Messenger(PBUH) my heart sinks because I can't deny their arguments.

    So blind faith is all I'm left with....and some days, I don't even have that.





  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #12 - June 06, 2013, 11:13 PM

    Quote
    This website: http://skepticshaykh.com/ seems to have crushed the last bit of faith I've had. And Shaykh Sceptic does it with a polite, gentle touch. No posturing, no finger-pointing, just solid reasoning and friendly logic which he wields to devastating effect.


    He is awesome isn't he?

    Seeker, you have this forum to discuss things with people who understand what you're going through. You are not alone.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #13 - June 06, 2013, 11:20 PM

    ^^ Thanks, billy. Even though I still fully identify as a Muslim, one of the reasons I made the leap from longtime lurker to forum participant is the camaraderie and sense of community here. When in the presence of 'true believers', even family members I feel like a damn hypocrite.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #14 - June 06, 2013, 11:35 PM

    That is why we exist mate, so there is a space for doubters, dissenters, sceptics and questioners like you and everyone else  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #15 - June 07, 2013, 02:06 AM

    So blind faith is all I'm left with.

    Form a street dawah tag team with Dahir T.

    That'll put some lead in your spiritual pencil.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #16 - June 07, 2013, 04:48 AM

    Hi Seeker, welcome to the forum.  I think you just have to be honest with yourself in the most basic level. For example, if you can't stand to see a person in pain or even an insect squirm how can you praise a being who created a system where billions will be tortured? We can't. Also no worries, if Allah is real he will know what is in your heart and mind regardless. You can't pretend to believe and praise what you feel is immoral. Remember "Allah" knows all.  Tongue

    When in the presence of family for ex. I try to think of it as more cultural, they are all just following tradition. I go with the flow and try to make the best of every situation. I do say things like "why do you belittle Allah so much? humanize him? make him seem like an angry little man?" to certain family members who bring up the threat of hellfire. I try to make them think and they do...by always changing the subject.  grin12 Try to make the best of the situation little by little. I too am glad we have this forum, our little sanctuary.  yes

    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #17 - June 07, 2013, 06:34 PM


    Thanks Sara.

    "You can't pretend to believe and praise what you feel is immoral" Exactly, so the only way I can reconcile my doubts with my faith is by willful denial....The only way I can reconcile my doubts with my (rapidly diminishing) faith, is to simply ignore the abundant evidence and close my eyes, ears, and heart to logic and reason. Not sure how long that dam(cognitive dissonance) will hold.......

    David,
    ha! "street dawah tag team"...used to man dawah tables all the time, hour-long conversations trying to bring people to the "one and only true religion. Sometimes I curse my inquisitive, overly analytical mind. Sometimes, ignorance and bovine-like placidity seems like a much better alternative to this doubt-ridden angst.





  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #18 - June 08, 2013, 02:02 PM

    A friend of mine and member of this very forum has begun calling himself a humanist/cultural Muslim and I think that maybe worth considering for some Muslims/ex-Muslims going through doubts. I know some here will disagree with this approach but it may help those who have lost faith in Islam/Quran as literal word of God, but who do not want to lose the good things in their faith's culture and community - not to mention the emotional and spiritual well being it gives them.

    There is a tendency for us who lose our faith to have a 'eureka' moment and to then rush to throw the baby out with the bath water, burn bridges and stand on a soapbox and preach.

    I went through that and now I would always advise others to keep calm, don't burn bridges, take things slowly. there is no reason why you can't keep what is good and leave what is not. Do not play the game the literalist/salafis want you to play. Yes you damn well can pick and choose - no-one is the boss of you apart from you!
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #19 - June 08, 2013, 02:34 PM

    That's great advice, Hassan. While I personally will probably never be comfortable with the term "cultural Muslim," Islam was and is a huge part of my identity. I'm becoming more comfortable with accepting that fact. People who believe in Islam don't have a monopoly over it. It's ours too.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #20 - June 08, 2013, 02:44 PM

    No, cultural Muslim is not a term I'm comfortable with for myself either, but I am happy to accept that Islam/islamic culture played a big part in shaping who I am (just as English culture did also!) and there are many things in it that are part of my life and I have no problem with that. I am not the slightest bit interested in playing the game of separating what is Islamic from what is just cultural. The fact is it doesn't matter to me in the slightest because I don't believe in it in that sense. I am merely able to take the wisdoms I want, the poetry I like, the music that moves me and the food I love and so on... Then leave the rest. I am also able to respect and share with those Muslims who are part of my life and always will be.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #21 - June 08, 2013, 06:04 PM

    Happymurtad and Hasan,

    Do you guys see any way out for me? Or does this road that I'm on inevitably lead to apostasy?

    Hassan's idea of picking and choosing what parts of Islam to believe in and what parts to discard is very attractive, and I find that I'm already doing that.

    Things that I've discarded:
    -considering the Messenger(PBUH) as ma3som(infallible). He's very fallible, and I'll leave it at that.  But I also understand that he lived in a different time and era, and thus, things that were normal in his environment are seen as heinous in our modern-day environment. I still love him, admire him, and respect him.

    -punishment for apostasy = death = bullshit. Ppl have the right to believe in whatever the fuck they want to believe in.

    - amputations, stonings = barbaric and counterproductive.  Where is the wisdom in chopping of the hands off a theif who now has to starve or beg? Deterrence, my foot. Where is the wisdom in  stoning ppl who committed the 'crime' of following their God-given natural instincts and rutting together outside the bounds of matrimony? Who gave them that sexual drive in the first place? Why punish them with death(or flogging) when they follow that natural instinct to bump uglies?

    - slavery = an immoral abomination. I refuse to believe that a merciful Creator would allow slavery. I choose to ignore and skip over the parts of Islam that allow slavery. Slavery = evil abomination....regardless of who says otherwise.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #22 - June 08, 2013, 06:27 PM

    Happymurtad and Hasan,

    Do you guys see any way out for me? Or does this road that I'm on inevitably lead to apostasy?


    I don't think it's a question of finding a way out, but rather finding what feels right for you according to your own conscience and views. I know quite a few Muslims who seem to have no problem being Muslim in name only or holding views that to me seem quite incompatible with Islam, but they are comfortable with it, so good luck to them.

    Whatever the case I would advise taking things slowly and there is no reason why you should have to lose or break relationships with those you love and care for or friends. Whether someone calls themselves a Muslim or not doesn't change the person they are. A good person is a good person in Islam or out of Islam and a fool is a fool in Islam or out of it, (which reminds me of the Hadith خياركم في الجاهلية خياركم في الإسلام  or in our case خياركم في الإسلام خياركم في الجاهلية lol)  Smiley
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #23 - June 08, 2013, 06:30 PM

    Its about finding a balance that is right for you.

    Its probably easier to find that balance if you don't feel coerced by family and the immediate environment.

    Maybe finding some space of your own can help to find this balance?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #24 - June 12, 2013, 01:50 PM

    Hi and welcome!
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #25 - June 30, 2013, 09:47 AM

    Welcome!

    Oh my! what you describe is so very familiar. For me it was important to go back to the very root and try to understand why I felt the way I did. The islam I grew up wanted my identity to be "muslim", and nothing more than that . for years I felt tortured and inferior just because I had been given this identity-being imposed on me but I didnt feel I fulfilled the criteria. So i got  rid of the criteria and started from scratch

    Which teachings, verses and hadiths do i whole heartedly agree with /endorse/ make sense to me and why?

    Which ones make me uncomfortable/repel me and why?

    Why is it so important to me to define myself as muslim?

    What do I think is a muslim and why?

    When I see someone pray/wear hijab how do I feel and why?

    Why do I not feel drawn to pray/fast?

    Why do I want to believe?

    You can write all your answers down in points and then pose "why" to all the points. Be honest and include all reasons you feel even such as "veil over my heart" and "shaytan whispering", or "the quran says its so " so you can address the "why" for  those things.. for example is it your upbringing, ideological conditioning or an obvious truth? - I know its a simple exercise but it can help to have it all there in front of you to help you see who you are when you feel lost..

    Hopefully in time, having a better defined idea of the person you are outside of a religious label/organised religion and constraints that can pose will make you feel more at peace with yourself and takes away the feeling that you are wrong or inferior for feeling the way you do.

    One size doesnt fit all and never has done which is why prescriptive religions that seeks to dictate every minutae of life alienates those born into it ,or creates zealots, drones or hypocrites.






  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #26 - July 07, 2013, 02:02 AM

    Thanks Mina, that was very insightful and practically helpful.

    Thanks, BofV, for the welcome. I can't count the number of vows I've broken, including vows and promises to God.

    I'm still here, still lost, and getting close to hopeless. I just might have to accept that my faith is gone forever and is never coming back. You can't unseen what you saw. You can't unlearn what you have learned.  And try as hard as I might, there is simply no explanation or justification for all of the numerous contradictions, hypocrisy, & injustice that are present in Islamic law, history, and practices.

    My last-ditch effort is to do what Hassan and others have suggested: create an Islam of my own making, where I take the good and discard the bad.

    But even that seems like a flimsy half-measure.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #27 - July 07, 2013, 07:12 PM

    I say don't try to hold on to what's left of your beliefs. Just let it be. It'll be very liberating and will likely improve your mental health, because you will no longer have to think of yourself as a horrible person for doubting and abandoning your prayers and such. None of this is your fault. You will no longer have to be paranoid about the thought that there could be jinn and angels watching you all the time. You will no longer have to defend things you don't believe in.

    You don't want to keep suffering for a false belief.
  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #28 - July 14, 2013, 08:18 AM


    "You don't want to keep suffering for a false belief."

    True words. But what if that false belief is all I have to hold on to? The only source of comfort and sanity in a dark and meaningless world. Furthermore, what guarantees do I have that what you(or I) consider to be a 'false belief' is actually false? What if there indeed is a painful hellfire with boiling water and a heaven filled with sex-crazed virgins and rivers of wine, milk, and honey?

    This 'crisis of faith' is seriously fucking with my mind. False Beliefs: Can't live with it; Can't live without it.

    Ramadan is here. I really really had high hopes for it. This was the Ramadan where I was gonna turn it all around. Repair my shattered relationship with God, reestablish myself as a practicing muslim, and rejoin my fellow 1.6 billion coreligionists in observing Shahru Ramadan Al-Mubarak.

    4 days into Ramadan, here is my report card: Not a single prayer was prayed, and not a single fast was observed, and a ton of pRon was watched, and premarital carnal knowledge was had, and some makrooh herbs were inhaled. On the plus side, no khamr was quaffed nor any khanzir eaten.

    So yeah. That's where i am. Stuck in limbo. Can't move forward to atheism; Can't go backward to the non-thinking sheep herd. Can't unseen what I saw, or unread what I've read. If I could, I would. Ignorance is truly heavenly bliss.  Illicit hedonistic gratification of the senses is all I have to rescue me from mental/emotional pain and anguish. One of the few pluses of having had a super-strict conservative upbringing is the visceral distaste for alcohol. I'd probably be a raging alcoholic by now.

  • Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
     Reply #29 - July 14, 2013, 12:39 PM

    Hey, at least it sounds like you a having a hell (sorry!) of a time with sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Rave-adan surely.
    I'm an atheist and am just bored almost into oblivion, awaiting my eventual bodily demise (the spiritual may come first actually - some people may argue it already has).

    You at least get all the action of both the body and the mind, albeit the last part might resemble torture.

    I have to say I feel sorry for the limbo you are feeling though far away hug

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
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