Hi all
Was there something in particular about Islam that made you believe it was "fundamentally flawed"? Or was it just having a change in perspective one morning that made you dump religion?
Hello Z-bo, this is a good question, It was a process over time for me but i do feel it clicked eventually, like a eureka moment where it all fell in to place. The main change in perspective was probably understanding the nature of religious faith. Faith is not a good indicator of truth, well atleast faith in an theological context. It just became wishful thinking for me. I want to hold as many true beleifs as possible and we have ways to show what is true or false and faith just did not do it.
What I mean when i say fundimentally flawed is that the foundation is flawed. Here's couple of reasons why for me.
The first most obvious is the concept of GOD/ALLAH. The concept requires a definition and the Islamic view of God by its definition is contradictory. One such is the perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. You also have the Omnipotence paradox and other such. Muslims may argue that god is capable of the inconcievable, but leads to the following problem. Would it not be possible for all religions bieng right about God since God is capable of the inconcievable. Also these contradictory religions can not be concieved as bieng right together by Humans but it wouldn't break a sweat with God because after all he is capable of the impossible. Apologist will argue that God is unknowable and impossible to comprehend (as the quran alludes to in various verses). This Definition is also flawed. God being unknowable makes any statement about him Impossible and pointless. So Muslims can't make claims about God.
Also how would one distinguish between an unknowable God and one that doesn't exist.
I've been through the various arguments for God. The main problem I have with all the ones I've come across is the idea of presupposition. They all presuppose the existance of God. You basically have to believe in God first in order to believe the Proof.
I came across Muslims using the Quran to prove God, I also did this but what I did not realise at the time was the following, The Quran is the claim not the proof. The reasoning just became very circular and again presupposes alot of things.
The first major flaw I saw in Islam were Hadiths and Hadith Science. I have a background in mathematics and can easily follow choas theory, abstract algebra, set theory etc but for the life of me I could not understand how Hadith were seen as anything more than hearsay and conjecture. I was often confronted with Muslims telling me that only specialised few can truly understand hadith science and it is one of the most advanced sciences, If understanding them required building a time machine then fair enough but come on, you can authenticate the chain to a degree but it is impossible to verify the matn. Let alone the contradictions with what we know of the real world though science. All I found was conjecture supporting conjecture proven by conjecture.
What made me doubt the Quran was essentually contradictory passages. The most obvious was the Quran being Clear, and easy to understand when it is far from clear and easy to understand. A lot of the quran can be taken to mean anything you want. Another one was that the Quran bieng complete and fully detailed and the co-existance of Hadith. The quran states it is the criterion but if it requires an explanation it is no longer a criteria and the explanation becomes the criteria. Then theres claims about reality which just don't add up and impossible to verify Like splitting moon, jinn and miracles of biblical prophets, Virgin birth etc.
Hadith bieng wahi raised an eyebrow for me.
The argument against the contradictions was that it needed to be read and understood in its original form of arabic. This did not fly with me. Muslim claim that arabic language is perfect. Language is a communication device, the fact that it can not be translated perfectly from arabic implies the that arabic is far from perfect. The linguistic miracle becomes less impressive when one realises the quran is the main basis of arabic grammer.
The scientific miracles claims were never a big part of my belief as a Muslim but they did play a part in my disbelief. Listening to talks by apologists like Zakir Naik and Hamza Tzortsis really sent me over to abandoning Islam. The reason is the blatant misrepresentation of Ideas/facts, I hold a competent grasp of science, Critical thinking and logic, and when listening I could pick out the flaws in their reasoning straight away. Knowing logical fallacies also helped alot. I remember watching a youtube clip of Hamza Yusuf and his explanation of the omnipotent paradox basically saying that we shouldn't ask questions like this then going on to claiming that the fact we ask the question is proof of God.
. I usely enjoy listening to Apologists but mainly they just use their rhetorical devises and deflect the answer, the Answers generally lack depth.
A general list of some Ideas which I also found inconsistent :-
The concept of Hell and God bieng most merciful of the merciful.
The illusion of free will which is ultimately Gods will.
The two above combined makes judgement day kind of pointless.
The idea we send ourselves to hell.
The Idea of miracles and the impossibility of verification.
A universal message having a 6th century context. Also clashes with idea of reason for revelation.
No compulsion and death for apostasy.
Evolution and the concept of Adam.
The unfavourable view of women.
The irrational hatred of non believers.
The lack of actual evidence for any Muslim claims
As for the good thing about Islam, fair enough it does have some good values but the major point for me to abandon it completely was that any of the values can be easily derived from secular means. I have not come across a benefit of religion which can not be achieved outside of it.
This was just a brief couple reasons. Explaining them in more details takes an age. so I kept them as brief as possible.
Peace
Topic: Hi all