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 Topic: Indoctrination and Islam

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  • Indoctrination and Islam
     OP - December 20, 2012, 05:15 PM



    A new blog by an ex-Muslim

    ++++++++++++++++++


    in·doc·tri·nate  in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates

    (1) To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
    (2) To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view:


    The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033)
     

    I remember I must have been 4 or 5 years old  going to Madressa and being able to read Surah Fatiha perfectly which made the Mu'Alim very happy and my parents very proud. I was able to read all Arabic words and I was content and happy seeing my parents this proud of me. It did not matter that I did not understand what I was reading, I only did it to make my parents happy.

    Fast forward 30 odd years and here I am thinking fuck I believed every thing I was told as a kid. I believed in the boogey man under my bed, that till today I sleep with my head covered or with some sort of light entering the room. I was so convinced that there were ghosts etc that I would imagine my bed moving, someone holding me so I cannot breathe. Now I know it is not true and what I experience is called the Placebo Effect.

    Why am I writing all of this?

    Because from as early as I can remember religion has been drilled into me, if not by my parents sending me to Muslim school and taking me to mosque, then by the teachers that taught me.

    Being taught in an Islamic institution is being taught with a whip.

    For every false recital there was a beating mostly in the form of falakah (being beaten on the soles of your feet). I remember being beaten with a PVC pipe (the type that electricians use to run wires through) until it broke and blood was pouring from my bottom because I was caught talking to a female.

    This is how Islam was drilled into me. This is what I call indoctrination.

    Day in and day out you are made to believe that what you are being taught is right and those who do not follow the same are following a set of false doctrines.

    Yet people who are not 'lucky' enough to be born into Islam are being taught day in and day out that their beliefs are correct and we are following a set of false doctrines.

    If you go by the Hadith quoted at the beginning of the post, we are all born Muslim and parents are responsible for giving the kids an alternate religion.

    Unfortunately, I can no longer think that that be true, I believe strongly we are born without any religion and our parents, together with our families, educators and communities shape our belief and I refuse to be part of that mould any longer.

    No longer am I going to force my child to go to an religious institution so she can be indoctrinated. She will learn that there are many religions out there when she is old enough she can choose whether she will follow her parents faith. She will learn to be a moral citizen.

    You are going to get the apologist out there that says, I follow (insert religion) because I want to not because it was the way I was brought up, the way I was brought up has no bearing on the religion I am following now.

    Yeah right, the way you were brought up defines every fibre of you and your belief.

    Lets say, if you brought up in a different religion, can you honestly say you would be following your current religion? If yes, I applaud you. 

    The reason for this post was because what I read on another blog:

    Islamic apologists say there is no compulsion in Islam. However, if you’re a child born to Muslim parents and in to a strict culture with Islamic ideology, the religion is compulsory for you because your situation demands it. You have no choice but to accept it. It is compulsory because if you refuse it, you become an outcast. You will face resistance from your parents and then from the community. This resistance can even take shape in the form of real physical abuse and threat.

    http://thinkingsmurf.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/a-culturally-inherited-faith/


  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #1 - December 20, 2012, 05:40 PM

    ..  well... well done ..........  @CEMB_Forum .....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #2 - December 25, 2012, 12:12 AM

    Isn't it true that the "no compulsion in religion" verse actually just means for those within Islam already, (born Muslims)? That, for example, it protects that a Muslim would not be forced into a marriage, forced to pray, forced to do whatever religious obligation.

    However, if we're talking about someone who was "born" Muslim and now identifies as a non-Muslim, they are not protected, because they are "out of religion" not in it.

    So basically, it doesn't do shit for us. So much for that "peaceful" and "tolerant" verse.

    (I would like someone to clarify this though, so that I don't go around continuing to think that if I'm wrong. Or do we not know since it's based on interpretation?)

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #3 - December 25, 2012, 12:42 AM

    The "no compulsion in religion" line is touted by some to show how tolerant Islam is. While Muslims and their apologists like to accuse everyone else of taking Islam and the Quran out of context, this verse is an example of how shamelessly Muslims themselves take things out of context.

    The verse actually says in full:
    Quran 2:256

    Quote
    There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
    --Pickthall translation


    Quote
    There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
    --Khalifa translation


    Quote
    There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
    --Shakir translation


    The verse seems to be saying that there is no compulsion in religion because Islam is the "right way". In other words, it is a verse declaring the supremacism of Islam, not its "tolerance". It's like saying "well you go do what you want, but you'll do the right thing, the thing we say is right, if you know what's good for you". That's not tolerance. It is, at best, passive aggressiveness.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

    Help keep this forum going! Donate to the Council of ExMuslims here: ex-muslim.org.uk/donate
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #4 - December 25, 2012, 12:52 AM

    Also, the next time a Muslim or a liberal apologist of Islam brings up that verse, besides the crass threat in it, bring up the verse right after that one:

    2:257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

    So in the next verse, the quran right away contradicts itself.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

    Help keep this forum going! Donate to the Council of ExMuslims here: ex-muslim.org.uk/donate
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #5 - December 25, 2012, 01:10 AM

    My reading of 2:256 would be that it is saying there is no longer any need to compel anyone to follow any religion, because (in the Islamic/Quranic view) the right path/religion is now so obvious (since the revelation of the Quran) that anyone will follow it without requiring compulsion.

    This is, of course, providing that they are not wilfully evil, in which case they're off to the fire as per 2:257, and providing that in accordance with another well known verse, Allah has not "set a seal on their hearts" (in which case they are screwed too).

    There is nothing in either verse about being tolerant of other religions, or about accepting that people can be good while still following other religions, or about any possibility of people who do follow other religions being able to avoid ending up in Hell.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #6 - December 25, 2012, 03:37 AM

    Kind of a hollow boast 'this religion is soooo obviously awesome'. The problem is that it creates a standard whereby those who aren't Muslim or who reject Islam will be treated with incredulity and have their sanity or rationality questioned rather than supported in their religious freedom. This is the best the Qur'an has to offer and its still lamentably intolerant.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #7 - December 25, 2012, 08:11 AM

    Isn't it true that the "no compulsion in religion" verse actually just means for those within Islam already, (born Muslims)? That, for example, it protects that a Muslim would not be forced into a marriage, forced to pray, forced to do whatever religious obligation.

    The verse was actually revealed in relation to some Arabs who took oaths that their children will be raised Jewish; it's basically telling them that there's "no compulsion in religion" in the sense that they don't have to follow the oath and make sure the kids are Jewish, i.e, they can convert them to Islam.
    Quote
    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas
    When the children of a woman (in pre-Islamic days) did not survive, she took a vow on herself that if her child survives, she would convert it a Jew. When Banu an-Nadir were expelled (from Arabia), there were some children of the Ansar (Helpers) among them. They said: We shall not leave our children. So Allah the Exalted revealed; "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error."
    Abu Dawud 14:2676

    Ibn Kathir had this to say in his tafsir:
    Quote
    Allah says: "There is no compulsion in religion", meaning: do not force anyone to embrace Islam, because it is clear and its proofs and evidences are manifest. Whoever Allah guides and opens his heart to Islam has indeed embraced it with clear evidence. Whoever Allah misguides blinds his heart and has set a seal on his hearing and a covering on his eyes cannot embrace Islam by force...hence Allah revealed this verse. But, this verse is abrogated by the verse of "fighting...Therefore, all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizya they should be fought till they are killed. This is the meaning of compulsion. In the Sahih, the Prophet said: "Allah wonders at those people who will enter Paradise in chains", meaning prisoners brought in chains to the Islamic state, then they embrace Islam sincerely and become righteous, and are entered among the people of Paradise.

  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #8 - December 25, 2012, 08:12 AM

    Kind of a hollow boast 'this religion is soooo obviously awesome'. The problem is that it creates a standard whereby those who aren't Muslim or who reject Islam will be treated with incredulity and have their sanity or rationality questioned rather than supported in their religious freedom. This is the best the Qur'an has to offer and its still lamentably intolerant.

    This  Afro
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #9 - December 26, 2012, 03:46 AM

    The verse was actually revealed in relation to some Arabs who took oaths that their children will be raised Jewish; it's basically telling them that there's "no compulsion in religion" in the sense that they don't have to follow the oath and make sure the kids are Jewish, i.e, they can convert them to Islam.Ibn Kathir had this to say in his tafsir:


     Muslim apologists always love to accuse people of taking violent verses out of context but they themselves ignore the tafsirs completely and pull their own interpretation of the verse out of nowhere. Hypocrisy at it's finest

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #10 - December 27, 2012, 01:23 AM

    Isn't it true that the "no compulsion in religion" verse actually just means for those within Islam already, (born Muslims)? That, for example, it protects that a Muslim would not be forced into a marriage, forced to pray, forced to do whatever religious obligation.


    I don't think so. From Tafsir Al-Jalalayn:  There is no compulsion in, entering into, religion.

    The other interpretations are kinda redundant and can be easily overlooked because of other contradictory verses. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn is far more important to Sunnis anyway. If you were born and raised as a non-muslim with no knowledge of Islam then the religion cannot be forced upon you. It says fuck all about fitri Muslims who were born into this fuckery of a religion and you don't have to look very far in the Qur'an or Sunnah to know what it does say about those who apostatise.

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #11 - December 27, 2012, 01:43 AM

    The "no compusion in religion" verse only applies to non muslims.

    When it comes to muslims who stop believing in Islam then there are hadiths that say that apostates should be killed

    like this one

    Quote
    Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #12 - December 27, 2012, 04:15 AM

    The "no compusion in religion" verse only applies to non muslims.

    When it comes to muslims who stop believing in Islam then there are hadiths that say that apostates should be killed

    like this one



    That's all I really wanted to know. Thanks.

    This sucks. I'm incredulous about Islam's deceit with this verse. It's disgusting. It protects non-Muslims more than people like us who were born into it. But of course.

    It's that double standard that kills me. So when my parents question me, I should just tell them "I wish I was born a non-Muslim instead, then I'd have more rights!" Can't they see how backwards this is?? Sigh.

    It's the same idea with the Westerner who voluntary converts to Islam, and then later leaves it - even though they might be looked at horribly by the Muslim community, that same community would look at me much worse simply because I was "born" a Muslim and later rejected it, although it's a similar thing. Makes my blood boil.

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #13 - December 27, 2012, 07:08 AM

    Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260


    I have a couple of Muslim friends who when presented with this would say something along the lines of "That's not saying to kill people who leave the religion, it's saying that you shouldn't do Allah's job of punishing people." This is the same friend who when presented with any of the many passages that say non-Muslims are going to hell says that they really mean that Muslims, Jews, and Christians should respect each other.

    It seems to me like she doesn't actually read anything the Quran says and just makes up whatever she wants it to say. Of course she would deny any of the verses outright until I physically showed them to her.
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #14 - December 27, 2012, 05:33 PM

    It seems to me like she doesn't actually read anything the Quran says and just makes up whatever she wants it to say. Of course she would deny any of the verses outright until I physically showed them to her.


    IMHO, the debate dealing with Islam permitting the killing of apostates is akin to beating a dead horse.

    We repeatedly push to point out that such a rule exists in Islam. Muslims vehemently deny repeatedly such a rule exists.

    I think it better to push the Muslims who deny such a rule exist to convince the Muslims who permit/promote killing apostates. I dream of the day the likes of Mohammed Ansar or other Muslim leaders to go to countries like Saudi and Iran to defend the rights of apostates/blasphemers as passionately as they debated to reject the idea that Islam allows killing apostates/blasphemers with us.
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #15 - December 27, 2012, 07:08 PM

    Quote
    I think it better to push the Muslims who deny such a rule exist to convince the Muslims who permit/promote killing apostates. I dream of the day the likes of Mohammed Ansar or other Muslim leaders to go to countries like Saudi and Iran to defend the rights of apostates/blasphemers as passionately as they debated to reject the idea that Islam allows killing apostates/blasphemers with us.


    Islam is going through a civil war between the sunni and shia and there's going to be another battle between the moderate muslims and the fundies.  The "ummah" the muslims love to talk about doesn't exist.

    It's only a matter of which side comes out stronger at the end of this civil war. I'm hoping the moderates like Tarek Fathah, Irshad Manji and Imam Usama Hasan manage to come out on top.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2013, 10:47 PM

     Cheesy Sometimes Salafis are just great. https://twitter.com/CEMB_forum/status/286602722915008512

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2013, 11:18 PM

    Wooooowwwwwwww!!!!! I'm not oft to quoting myself, but in this instance I think it's entirely warranted!

    Quote from: happymurtad on December 23, 2012, 07:07 PM

    “The problem was that the world view that existed among everyone inside of that bubble was so foreign to anything that existed in the outside world that it was impossible to really have ideas based on what we would now all agree are facts.”

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #18 - January 02, 2013, 11:24 PM

    It'd be wonderful if we could keep Salafis in nice enclosures at zoos, like other hairy critters that bite. People could entertain themselves by watching them stalk around and snarl. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #19 - January 02, 2013, 11:28 PM

    I just can't get the image of poor little Ariel, marinated and barbequed najdi style (head still on of course) out of my mind. Thanks for clearing that up for us Shaikh Fawzan.

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #20 - January 02, 2013, 11:30 PM

    Question: even though edible, would she still be required to have her naughty bits covered? We should ask.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #21 - January 03, 2013, 12:00 AM

    Of course, the scholars would disagree on this issue with four main opinions.

    Malikis: The lower, fish-like portion of the mermaid may be exposed, but the upper, human like portion must be covered. There is no harm if it is covered in something edible, like bread, grape leaves, or mounds of biryani.

    Shafi’is: There is no need for the mermaid to be covered, but the believer should lower his gaze while eating. If he finds himself aroused by the cooked mermaid, it would be makrooh to continue eating it.

    Hanafis: It is permissible to look upon the cooked body of a mermaid, but not the raw body. The believer should make a fresh wudhoo before performing any ibaadaat after eating mermaid flesh.

    And finally, the Hanbalis: The entire mermaid body should be covered in a dark, edible covering. A full ghusl must be performed after eating the mermaid, and you must have the permission of the mermaids male guardian before she is consumed. Failure to do so will result in flogging.

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #22 - January 03, 2013, 12:01 AM

     Cheesy We so need that fatwa parody site.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #23 - January 03, 2013, 12:17 AM



    I wonder how that randomly popped up onto twitter  whistling2
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #24 - January 03, 2013, 03:21 AM

    Cheesy We so need that fatwa parody site.


    I just can't get the image of poor little Ariel, marinated and barbequed najdi style (head still on of course) out of my mind. Thanks for clearing that up for us Shaikh Fawzan.


    Sounds like an idea for a disney movie.    Tongue

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #25 - January 07, 2013, 06:36 PM

    It'd be wonderful if we could keep Salafis in nice enclosures at zoos, like other hairy critters that bite. People could entertain themselves by watching them stalk around and snarl. parrot

    Funny thing is; Salafis are hairy and they do bite. What?? The fatwa was about eating mermaids? Ugh. Knowing Islam and Salafis I would've assumed it was something sexual. Like whether or not they should be covered; if it's permissible to marry/have sex with one.
  • Indoctrination and Islam
     Reply #26 - January 07, 2013, 07:05 PM

    Of course, the scholars would disagree on this issue with four main opinions.

    Malikis: The lower, fish-like portion of the mermaid may be exposed, but the upper, human like portion must be covered. There is no harm if it is covered in something edible, like bread, grape leaves, or mounds of biryani.

    Shafi’is: There is no need for the mermaid to be covered, but the believer should lower his gaze while eating. If he finds himself aroused by the cooked mermaid, it would be makrooh to continue eating it.

    Hanafis: It is permissible to look upon the cooked body of a mermaid, but not the raw body. The believer should make a fresh wudhoo before performing any ibaadaat after eating mermaid flesh.

    And finally, the Hanbalis: The entire mermaid body should be covered in a dark, edible covering. A full ghusl must be performed after eating the mermaid, and you must have the permission of the mermaids male guardian before she is consumed. Failure to do so will result in flogging.



    Hil-Lair-rious - Jester of the month material, being of the Shafi mathab, I concur that everything indeed is Makruh Smiley
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