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 Topic: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?

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  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #60 - January 09, 2013, 04:28 AM

    Oh neat a HappyMurtad video, this should be interesting Grin

    Maybe Free@Last can help too? :O

    I've always wanted to do something kind of video making but I never get around to it. Back when I had the energy to do it I was young and immature. Now that I know a lot more, I don't have the time or energy to make videos, or even subjects to make them on. I suppose the only thing that kind of intrigues me is that I can do a lot of voices and can say things with a bit more emotion than some of the people in my english classes. I also tend to be pretty good at being spontaneously funny. I've been kind of tempted to try voice acting, but I have no idea where you start doing stuff like that, or who would even need me when I don't have a deep sexy voice. Besides, I like computer science more Tongue. It's the only class I did well in in first term.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #61 - January 09, 2013, 10:29 AM

    He's a Manc

    A blue, doubtless.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #62 - January 09, 2013, 02:53 PM

    This chap both believes in, and disbelieves evolution

    ++++++


    There is nothing that anyone can say that will get under the skin of the science-worshipping militant new atheist movement and have them all riled up, like questioning the validity of evolutionary theory. So much anger and aggression by some, and dismissal and mockery by others. Yet they present themselves as the so-called “rational” ones. This type of reaction does nothing but raise more suspicion about the validity of this theory. May be more of these guys need to read some Alain de Botton for some spiritual inspiration so they can relax, and by spiritual I mean seizure activity in the temporal lobes within the hippocampal formation and increased neuronal activity resulting form dopamine and serotonin and possibly oxytocin released in different circuits. Until they experience that from Alain de Botton or whoever else that caters to religion-like systems for atheists, they might want to temporarily put the advice of Bishop Desmond Tutu’s father to him into action: “Don’t raise your voice. Improve your argument.”

    Why does evolutionary theory draw up so much emotion from science-worshipping militant new atheists? Is it really about “science” as they say? Are they upset because “religion is backwards and what the Scriptures say is nothing but false descriptions of the World that were only so due to the technological limitations of the people who wrote them”? Is it true that “denial of evolution will result in halting our scientific progress”?

    This subject is quite complex and would require a very lengthy exposition, which is not really the purpose here. The reason for writing this piece is the recent event held on January 5, 2013 by The Deen Institute titled “Have Muslims Misunderstood Evolution?”. Surprisingly, although this event was advertised as a “conference”, it actually turned out to be a debate between Muslim scholars on the subject of evolution and whether we should accept its validity. I spoke with a friend who attended it and I saw online the part where Shaykh Yasir Qadhi stood his ground and defended the Islamic position when it comes to the creation of Adam peace be upon him, who we believe was a unique creation and not a descendant from a common ancestral ape as other primates.

    Unfortunately, in this part of the debate, Shaykh Yasir after giving such an elegant performance refuting the arguments of Dr. Usama Hasan (based on what Shaykh Yasir said about what Dr. Usama claimed and how he backed it up), he ended his time by giving a blanket approval for anything else that evolutionists will claim about the world. This was an unwise move and its negative consequence was exemplified in the mass confusion many Muslims were left in at the end. In fact, some Muslims were apparently a little embarrassed to admit they still didn’t fully accept the pro-evolution panel’s positions and they just had “faith” that the Quran is True. It’s not a surprise they were embarrassed. How can they not when they’re presented with data, figures, graphs, observational accounts, all of which seemed to fit in perfectly with the evolutionary account that’s used to describe how we humans came about. On the opposite end they had the Muslim scholar saying we shouldn’t have a problem with that account except when it comes to Adam peace be upon him and we just have to believe because the Quran said so. To us, the creation of Adam peace be upon him was a miraculous event.

    There is a small problem though. How would such an assertion about the miraculous creation of Adam peace be upon him be perceived by the listeners if the pro-evolution side presented no more than a couple of evolutionary theory-based predictions that were experimentally verified and fit in exactly with the narrative proposed by evolutionists? Because that can be done quite easily, and without fail it will put you in a very uncomfortable position as a Muslim and might shake your faith. In fact, many Muslims have left Islam precisely for this reason. At some point, telling people they just “have to have faith” doesn’t sell anymore. So either an intellectual defence needs to be presented, or just surrender and given in.

    Evolutionary theory is not just about science. If it was, it wouldn’t have such implications on belief and religion in general, let alone specific religions such as Islam or Christianity. What’s troubling about the way it’s handled by the various religious groups is the point at which they enter the discussion. Everyone seems to want to talk about the evidence for or against it. No one is interested in the foundation that it’s built upon, and the subsequent logic and coherence of the theory itself. For God’s sake, what makes science “science” is not even addressed. What is evidence? The weakness in how Muslims engage with this subject is in the fact that they enter it based on the terms of evolutionists. Without realizing it, they accept the foundations the theory is built on, and then proceed to point out whatever holes the theory has and what it doesn’t explain. Well, if history is any guide, those holes will be filled at some point as the theory goes through the normal scientific course of being re-worked, and some clever scientists will come eventually to explain those things that haven’t been explained. Then what? Will you finally disregard the Quran at that point?

    Science, as a field, is being paraded around as the fact-finding activity that only deals with “objective reality”. As if people, who are subjective by nature, aren’t involved. While this is not an article about the philosophy of science and the various discussions about the scientific method, a little point needs to be made about evidence, because too many people, including the majority of these science-worshipping militant new atheists don’t differentiate between the various types of evidence in science. Two important categories of evidence are “material evidence” and “inferred evidence”.

    Material evidence is the hard data. It’s the observed phenomena. It’s the findings anyone would get if they followed the same exact procedure followed by another individual. When I train volunteers and undergraduate students doing research projects in the lab, I go through what to do and what not to do, and literally within a week they’ll generate exactly the same findings that I had. They don’t actually need to know what it all means and even what they’re doing does exactly to generate that same set of data; they just go through the motions. Material evidence presents no problems for Islam.

    Inferred evidence is the explanation imposed upon the data. Several criteria of logic, simplicity, coherence and adequacy are kept in mind to come up with the best and most plausible explanation. This explanation is then used to generate hypotheses that will test its validity as an explanation. As more support for the inferred evidence is gathered through different experiments in different settings, it will become more established and accepted by the scientific community. Some findings might jeopardize the validity of the inferred evidence, but that’s where flexibility comes in because the inferred evidence, i.e., the explanation can be reformulated to minimize the amount of data that doesn’t completely fit in. Notice the use of the word “minimize”, which implies the stagnation of a set of data that still doesn’t support the explanation. Scientists call these “outliers” or “random values”, which is really code for “we don’t know what’s going on here”. Inferred evidence is where things begin to get vague, because past experience and world views can play a big role in shaping it.

    This leads us to something we haven’t dealt with: the foundations of evolutionary theory. There is one important foundation that stems from an age-old debate on epistemology, i.e., how do we get knowledge. This debate is between rationalism and empiricism. Wars were started, gladiators fought to the death, and little puppies and kittens cried many tears. What the Western intellectual crowd determined for itself was that all that exists is what we can touch, smell, feel, taste, hear, and see. In other words, if I can’t measure it in some sort of way, it doesn’t exist. There’s no such thing as pure reason. To be rational means to make empirically-verifiable statements. This position was really firmly established by Francis Bacon who’s earned the title of “Father of Empiricism”. René Descartes was on the other extreme where he supported such an extreme “rationalist” view that he actually started to reject the existence of things. You might know him from his famous statement “I think therefore I am”.

    The Muslim approach was never an either/or in this extremist sense. The problem with such radical assertions made by both camps is their initial unjustifiable assumption that knowledge can only be gained through a single methodology. In other words, if we can imagine a world where only two types of stimuli exist (light and sound) for two perceptive senses (eyes and ears), one side of that debate wants to perceive light and sound using the eyes, while the other wants to perceive light and sound using the ears. The Muslim would just look at both sides and shake their head in wonderment at why neither side wants to employ each one of their senses to perceive the appropriate stimuli for it.

    Now, if you begin with an assumption that there is nothing beyond this physical realm, and would like to give a context to the combination of your material and inferred evidence, you cannot escape having to accept evolutionary theory as an account for where things came from. In the very first chapter of “The Blind Watchmaker” titled “Explaining the very improbable”, Richard Dawkins spills the beans about what evolutionary theory is meant for:

    An atheist before Darwin could have said, following Hume: ‘I have no explanation for complex biological design. All I know is that God isn’t a good explanation, so we must wait and hope that somebody comes up with a better one.’ I can’t help feeling that such a position, though logically sound, would have left one feeling pretty unsatisfied, and that although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.

    So what are we dealing with here? Definitely not science in the strict sense of the definition. After studying more science textbooks than I can remember to count, and continuing to use numerous ones today, the major function of evolutionary theory in its current formulation in Western academia is to provide a pacifier for the reader who might have any inclinations to feeling any reverence towards anything metaphysical. The goal is to keep things terrestrial. If one were to take all the assertions such as “this evolved from that to solve the problem of moving from water to land”, and restrict the material to just describing structure and function and pointing out the similarities without inducing relatedness, and classify based on similarity rather than “relatedness”, it wouldn’t all of a sudden be any less scientific.

    To push this point about the ideological commitment to atheism this theory supports, any criticism of it that has nothing to do with religion must also be qualified:

    (Rough Authoritative Voice) Raise your hands and drop your weapon. Turn around slowly and don’t make any sudden moves. Who are you and why are you here?

    (Soft Gentle Voice) I’m an atheist just like you, but I’d like to point out some logical holes in evolutionary theory as it’s currently formulated if that’s alright.

    (Rough Authoritative Voice) Show me your atheist card. Alright, you can show me those logical holes, but write your critique in difficult philosophical language using terms that would require having a dictionary for philosophy terms and also write it in not so exciting style, use big words and complex sentence structures, and sell it at a high price.

    (Soft Gentle Voice) But why all that?

    (Rough Authoritative Voice) Oh no reason. Just making sure it’s as inaccessible as possible and that even I don’t understand it so I can dismiss it as philosophical mumbo jumbo and continue bullying everyone into fallaciously accepting evolutionary theory in its current formulation as factual as gravity.

    Although this fictional conversation might seem ridiculous, it’s the sad state of literature today. The overwhelming majority of evolutionary theory critiques that deal with the logic of it, the premises its built on, the incoherences within it before addressing the evidences for or against it are relegated to philosophy journals. What makes it more ridiculous is how anyone writing about it must declare their atheism to be taken seriously. The very first statements of Jerry Fodor & Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini in their book “What Darwin Got Wrong” were:

    This is not a book about God; nor about intelligent design; nor about creationism. Neither of us is into any of those. We thought we’d best make that clear from the outset, because our main contention in what follows will be that there is something wrong – quite possibly fatally wrong – with the theory of natural selection; and we are aware that even among those who are not quite sure what it is, allegiance to Darwinism has become a litmus for deciding who does, and who does not, hold a ‘properly scientific’ world view. ‘You must choose between faith in God and faith in Darwin; and if you want to be a secular humanist, you’d better choose the latter’. So we’re told.

    We doubt that those options are exhaustive. But we do want, ever so much, to be secular humanists. In fact, we both claim to be outright, card-carrying, signed-up, dyed-in-the-wool, no-holds-barred atheists. We therefore seek thoroughly naturalistic explanations of the facts of evolution, although we expect that they will turn out to be quite complex, as scientific explanations often are.

    Hold the door. I’m sorry guys, I had no idea you both are such staunch atheists. I now must recognize you as worthy intellectuals and will take you seriously!

    As mentioned way above, this is not a simple topic. I didn’t even get into the problem with using the broad term “evolution” as describing one thing, when in fact, it’s actually an umbrella term that groups multiple facets of biology and behaviour under it. Hence, it’s actually fallacious to group them all together in this manner. The intricate interplay between material evidence, inferred evidence, and contextual narrative built upon this combination, has given rise to what is possibly the most interconnected web of research mankind has every come up with. Today, whole fields of study depend upon evolutionary theory as the bedrock for them to establish their departure points. Pick up a first year undergraduate text book on anthropology and right at the beginning they’ll confess that the whole discipline is built on that assumption. This theory has received so much attention and has been reworked so extensively that it achieved a scale analogous to the Titanic. Interestingly, the Titanic was so magnificent that apparently “Not even God himself could sink this ship.” Well, we all know how that ended .

    In spite of all the problems seeping from evolutionary theory, it’s still promoted as an “elegant” and “accurate” account for where we came from and for all this complexity and diversity of life. It seems that its convincing powers have to do more with how it’s presented rather than the actual merit of it. Of course we can’t discount the material evidence that’s interpreted to be in support for it. But that takes us on a whole topic of theory-laden data (see Thomas Kuhn) and how in reality “it’s the theory that determines what we observe” as Einstein put it.

    For Muslims, with such a vast tradition, and countless works from our scholars, so many of us having doubts and being confused is only a symptom of not having really learned what’s really important. Our tradition was never a “just have faith regardless of evidence to the contrary” tradition. Imam Ibn Al Jauzi says in his work “Confusing Methods of Iblees (Satan)” (تلبيس إبليس):

    The greatest bounty for the human being is the intellect, because it’s the means for knowledge of God the Praised and the way by which we believe in the Messengers. [Since] it couldn’t conclude [on its own] all that is required from the servant, the Messengers were sent and the Scriptures were revealed. So the analogy of religion is the sun, and the analogy of the intellect is the eye; if the eye is sound and it’s opened it will see the sun.

    If Muslims spent half the time they spend studying whatever else they focus on for their Western-based education to study their own theology, the alternative contextual narratives based on commitment to atheism wouldn’t phase them. More importantly, our own scholars need to be careful when it comes to subjects such as this. As Imam Fakhr Ad’Deen Ar’Razi would put it: “If the premises are fallacious, there is no need to discuss any further details.” This intellectual bullying by the science-worshipping militant new atheist crowd shouldn’t be paid any attention to once their foundations are shook. But unfortunately, our modern days seem to combine the prominence of magic during the times of Moses peace be upon him and the prominence of materialistic naturalism during the times of Jesus Christ peace be upon him. We’re too taken in by how amazing everything is and our attention is more towards sensory stimulation than rational inquiry.

    A final point, I barely scratched the surface of this topic. I could go on and on. I can argue FOR evolution if I want to, but I think! I realize that I skipped over a lot of different points and completely ignored others. I have written a couple of other articles on this subject that deal with the logic of it. But I generally don’t address it much because I haven’t exhausted what I feel is a sufficient amount of material on philosophy of science, history of science, evolution, logic, and other fields relating to these subjects. What has done more damage to Islam and resulted in giving more credence to this atheism-driven account for nature is the fact that those who address it, although well-intentioned, haven’t given it careful study. This has resulted in Muslims either developing crises of faith or even leaving Islam completely, which might’ve never happened if they were presented with a carefully laid out analysis that could put their minds at ease. Yet, had they had a solid grounding in Muslim theology, they may never have had those doubts no matter how poorly this subject was addressed by Muslims.

    So, should we believe in evolution as Muslims? Yes & no! If the answer upsets those looking for straight yes or no answers, then we can be equally upset for being expected to answer such a complex multilayered question with a straight yes or no answer.


    http://mohamedghilan.com/2013/01/08/do-you-believe-in-evolution-yes-no/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #63 - January 09, 2013, 04:14 PM

    As a piece its slightly mixed up. He's attempting the philosophical go around of evolution that a few philosophers have argued, but he's not very clear about it.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #64 - January 09, 2013, 08:24 PM

    Have you seen the post where he attempts to elaborate on problems with evolution?

    http://mohamedghilan.com/2012/02/26/some-problems-with-evolution/

    ATTUNETOHUM makes some excellent comments in it, most notably

    Quote
    I may be wrong here, but I have to make the suggestion that you won’t find a scientific paper that gathers all kinds of evidence to refute evolution because there are simply not enough legitimate and unexplained anomalies out there to provide even the beginnings of a challenge to the theory. If you tend to disagree with me here, as I suspect you do, I would suggest that a very important work to be done – if, indeed your problems with evolution are purely secular – would be the query and presentation of empirical objections to the theory’s claims and predictions. It would add serious legitimacy to your arguments, and provide the evidence you’d need to win skeptics like myself to your point of view.


    FreeThought Wiki is looking for translators!

    Current projects: Faraj Foda's "al-Haqiqa al Ghaib" (Arabic) and Turan Dursun's "Din Bu I" (Turkish)
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #65 - January 09, 2013, 10:24 PM

    Is this posted yet? - Muslim response to Dawahman

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoJqJ6azTbY

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #66 - January 09, 2013, 10:44 PM

    AFAIK,Theory of Evolution can never be compatible with Islam no matter how muslims try to bridge them together because it goes against the story of Allah creating Adam and Eve as the first human beings,ergo its a shirk. Either you accept evolution and reject Islam or you reject evolution and accept Islam. It has to be one of the two choices and I'm sure most muslims go with the latter only because of the fear of committing Shirk.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #67 - January 09, 2013, 10:53 PM

    The position of some, including many scientists who also identify as Muslims is, like the position of scientists who identify as Christians, that these scriptures (especially when it comes to evolution) are metaphorical. That the Quran (and the Bible if you ask those Christians) are written in metaphors, and open to interpretation. That the story of Adam is a metaphor, not literally true.

    They square that circle by basically rejecting Islam's truth claims whilst holding on to the label Muslim. But this is exactly what has happened within Christianity for the large part over the last 200 years. It's where Islam is headed too.

    I sometimes think this intellectual acrobatics is appalling, but then I think, why should I care? Why should it bother *me* if Muslims want to think that the Quran is metaphorical and not literally true?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #68 - January 09, 2013, 11:01 PM

    someone shared a video with me about christians and evolution..  
    i totally agree that some muslims have and will continue to say that the story of adam and eve was a metaphor just like other questionable things in islam..

    i think future muslims will look a little more like this christian refuting evolution

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8VCunAkVDc
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #69 - January 09, 2013, 11:32 PM

    It is still a very willfully dishonest interpretation, however. While all languages allow for elements of exaggeration, metaphor, and analogy, there still has to be some weight and meaning to the words you chose to use. If someone asks me to believe in Santa Clause, I will say no. I am thoroughly incapable of coming to the conclusion that Old Saint Nick actually exists. If that person then says “Well, when you say Santa Clause, you are thinking of an old fat guy with a big white beard who dresses up in fluffy red clothes and flies around on a magical reindeer-pulled sleigh delivering gifts.  Cheesy Of course, that’s silly. But when I say Santa Clause, I’m speaking about the internal, natural inclination towards altruism that motivates us to give gifts during the holiday season. Ancient people just used the ‘Santa Clause’ story as a metaphor for this natural human feeling.  So see, Santa really does exist! Oh yeah, and if you don’t believe in him you’ll be damned for eternity. Merry Christmas!”
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #70 - January 09, 2013, 11:38 PM

    The position of some, including many scientists who also identify as Muslims is, like the position of scientists who identify as Christians, that these scriptures (especially when it comes to evolution) are metaphorical. That the Quran (and the Bible if you ask those Christians) are written in metaphors, and open to interpretation. That the story of Adam is a metaphor, not literally true.

    They square that circle by basically rejecting Islam's truth claims whilst holding on to the label Muslim. But this is exactly what has happened within Christianity for the large part over the last 200 years. It's where Islam is headed too.

    I sometimes think this intellectual acrobatics is appalling, but then I think, why should I care? Why should it bother *me* if Muslims want to think that the Quran is metaphorical and not literally true?




    Interesting, to be honest this is new to me because I have never come across muslims whose position that Qur'an is written in metaphors and the story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor too. However,like you said there is no reason for one to be bothered about it,who knows maybe it might lead to reformation of Islam like Christianity but that will be a long rocky road full of potholes and mines for them to reach that stage.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #71 - January 10, 2013, 02:47 PM

    This chap both believes in, and disbelieves evolution
    http://mohamedghilan.com/2013/01/08/do-you-believe-in-evolution-yes-no/


    I've read through several of his articles and quite frankly I have yet to read anyone who has written more self-righteous, at times very dishonest and outright arrogant arguments. This guy, by his writing ability alone comes across as very intelligent, which I give him credit for but something about the content of the articles makes it seem he has an exclusive right to say what is the truth like he has drank from the fountain of knowledge. I have not seen more cognitive dissonance in one place in all my life, he makes the like of Zakir Naik and Hamza Tzortsis seem reasonable.

    His following comment in the comment section he makes sums it up really.

    Quote
    I think the issue is you’re mixing Islam with Muslims and conflating the question of the existence of God with the actions of God. Also, and this is rule of thumb that you should keep in the forefront of your mind, just because the orientalist writing about Islam is a non-Muslim, it doesn’t make them objective. Everyone has a bias that comes out in their writing. Moreover, if you’re going to base your decision about being a Muslim or not by restricting yourself to the works of one or two or even ten orientalist scholars, and neglect to go to Muslims who have studied the tradition properly, then you should quit now because the decision is obvious based on the methodology.

    I could debunk a lot of things. But these are all red herrings. There are bigger and more important questions that need to be dealt with. Once those are done, these issues you’re asking to debunk will disappear and won’t need to be debunked. Their presence in your mind is indicative of you not having dealt with bigger questions. Also, rather than going around asking people to debunk this or that, you need to sit down and reflect on what you come across for yourself. I might be wrong, but chances are that you take what seems to make sense from Muslims and ask atheists to debunk it. Then when you find out that Muslims have actually responded to that “debunk” attempt, you just take that response and go back to atheists again and ask them to debunk the new response. At the end, you’ll just keep going back and forth and not come to any conclusion because you haven’t sat down and thought about how you’re going about things here. (This I give agree with Mr Ghilan whole heartedly.)

    By the way, your statement about lack of evidence for the existence of God has the same value as someone who just boasts about how much evidence there actually is for God. Neither one qualifies what evidence means, and more importantly, neither one addresses how to go about asking that question and what is the appropriate way to answer it.

    I’m sure you’ve checked it out by now, but just in case you haven’t, here is a link to a text I just finished teaching on Muslim theology. I dealt with many issues in going through it. It’s not for you to listen as background listening though. You need to go through this a few times and reflect on what’s being said for itself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkAfmN9AF0k&list=PLPEzNqC6gh-Fn7gU9pr8Hgy7WeFm9iI6K


    How he even has the audacity to claim objectivity when through out most articles he has written, goes to appeal to authority, makes limitless unfounded assertions, shifts the burden of proof at every attempt. His whole site is dedicated to philosophy which is a very subjective field and tries to appeal that he is being objective. I've noted numerous times that he does exactly that which he accuses others of doing. Talk about being in denial and delusional.

    Also how can a scientist reject the scientific method and still try and achieve a phd in the field. What other method is there to make conclusions about reality on realities terms.

    If this guy is the up and coming Muslim intellectual icon, I think their needs to be a better movement to counteract the absolutely asinine ideas this guy is peddling.

    Sorry about the rant, really does get me seething that religious individual like him can claim truths and expect others to just follow along because we can't possibily understand.

    Peace.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #72 - January 10, 2013, 05:01 PM

    This is the path were Islam starts changing itself to suit science, thus further dividing it.
    Unlike other religions Muhammad dug his followers in a hole by putting old science in the Quran and using it to prove it's legitimacy. Bad bad idea. Science is always changing, too bad he didn't understand that.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #73 - January 10, 2013, 06:45 PM

    Unlike other religions Muhammad dug his followers in a hole by putting old science in the Quran and using it to prove it's legitimacy. Bad bad idea. Science is always changing, too bad he didn't understand that.


    Interesting perspective, of course this assumes that Muhammad actually cared about whether people would still be following his religion 1,000s of years in the future. maybe he was only really interested in getting followers in his own lifetime.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #74 - January 10, 2013, 06:54 PM

    Interesting perspective, of course this assumes that Muhammad actually cared about whether people would still be following his religion 1,000s of years in the future. maybe he was only really interested in getting followers in his own lifetime.




    I don't think Muhammad thought the world was going to be around in a thousand years. He was a quintessential doomsday prophet. The guy used to get terrified over solar eclipses, thinking the hour was nigh.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #75 - January 10, 2013, 09:15 PM

    Yeah I heard about how Muhammad was terrified of solar eclipses. So much for being all knowing.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #76 - January 10, 2013, 09:33 PM

    I've read through several of his articles and quite frankly I have yet to read anyone who has written more self-righteous, at times very dishonest and outright arrogant arguments. This guy, by his writing ability alone comes across as very intelligent, which I give him credit for but something about the content of the articles makes it seem he has an exclusive right to say what is the truth like he has drank from the fountain of knowledge. I have not seen more cognitive dissonance in one place in all my life, he makes the like of Zakir Naik and Hamza Tzortsis seem reasonable.


    "The more one delves into science in the same depth that science is made to delve into everything else in this physical universe, the more it becomes exposed for its flawed premises. As science becomes more naked, and all its blemishes are made manifest, it can no longer be revered by science-worshipping atheists at an alter as an all-perfect substitution for what others hold to be sacred. Hence, those who sanctify science respond irrationally to any contentions one has with their unjustifiable restriction of all knowledge to only that which can be scientifically verified. In a sense, they are protecting their sanctified worldview."

    - I think gullible young muslims may well fall for his bullshit considering he has a scientific background so for them he will act as their appeal to authority.
    He's using his scientific knowledge to probe for any sign of what he deems as flaws or weakness in modern science & the scientific method & throwing philosophy into the mix too. Interesting approach but not much real substance to it imo.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #77 - January 10, 2013, 09:42 PM

    I don't think Muhammad thought the world was going to be around in a thousand years. He was a quintessential doomsday prophet. The guy used to get terrified over solar eclipses, thinking the hour was nigh.


    You may find this book of interest

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21998.0


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #78 - January 10, 2013, 10:06 PM

    - I think gullible young muslims may well fall for his bullshit considering he has a scientific background so for them he will act as their appeal to authority.


    It's worse than that, there are muslims I have come across the internet who reject - the 'western' (my quotes) system of logic!! mysmilie_977

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #79 - January 10, 2013, 10:49 PM

    Absolutely. It is essentially a tenet among some of the more hardline Islamic schools of thought to reject the use of logic. At the most extreme was the Thahiri school, who rejected all forms of logical deductions and relied solely on the texts. (I recall an example where the thahiris asserted that while Muhammad prohibited physically urinating in a standing body of water then using it for bathing, there was nothing wrong with dumping urine into a standing body of water then using it for bathing since there was no prohibition on it.) Even among sects that do not go to that extreme, one will often hear the mantra “Logic can not supersede the texts.” Another narration, often attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, states “If logic had a place in religion, then wiping the bottom of the sock (during ritual ablutions) would be better than wiping the top.”  (As Muslims are required to wipe the top of their socks when preparing for prayers.) Many of the literal sects like the wahabbis use this to justify all of the seemingly backwards stances they take on things. Unfortunately, this trend is all too common with Muslims when the things they do and believe defy all logic. They find it a virtue to shrug their hands up and say “We hear and we obey. Allah and his messenger know best.”
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #80 - January 10, 2013, 11:15 PM

    Very enlightening happymurtad. Sometimes when debating my muslim friends on science i do get to the stage of quoting the quranic verse - summun bukmun umyun fahum la yarji un - which I think I can paraphrase to 'some will be always deaf, dum and blind' - it's the only line I remember in the Quran, (bar surat Fatiyah and the Kul's at the end)  because it is near the beginning, page 3 iirc and has a memorable pronounciation (I am not an Arab).

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #81 - January 11, 2013, 04:24 AM

    Wow that is note worthy  thnkyu

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #82 - January 11, 2013, 03:00 PM

    "The more one delves into science in the same depth that science is made to delve into everything else in this physical universe, the more it becomes exposed for its flawed premises. As science becomes more naked, and all its blemishes are made manifest, it can no longer be revered by science-worshipping atheists at an alter as an all-perfect substitution for what others hold to be sacred. Hence, those who sanctify science respond irrationally to any contentions one has with their unjustifiable restriction of all knowledge to only that which can be scientifically verified. In a sense, they are protecting their sanctified worldview."


    I noticed this paragraph in his writing and I find it hard to believe that an intelligent a man as he clearly is, would not understand that science is a self correcting process. The very philosophy of science essentailly solves the problem he is trying to expose of false premises. Ironically, he probably holds many false premises in Islamic belief.

    I always wonder what this false premises of science are, has anyone ever come across them because I can't seem to figure them out. Is it that science can't explain the supernatural but science by its own philosophy makes no claim to the supernatural. Is it that science can't explain things that are subjective by nature but I have not come across a situation where science proposes to do this.

    Also I've yet to come across an atheist or anyone for that matter that holds science as sacred. He has an interesting article on burden of proof and the default position. where he states that because the majority of people have always believed in a diety of some sort in recorded history the default position is a belief in God.

    Though I find it frustrating that he is misleading gullible authority seaking muslims, I appreciate what he is doing in his work. It gives me a chance to assess the claims of the most intelligent men Islam has to offer and going by what he writes I really hope he offers something to bring atleast a small amount doubt in to my own beliefs, so I can hopefully move closer to whats actually true.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #83 - January 11, 2013, 05:27 PM

    science is a self correcting process. The very philosophy of science essentailly solves the problem he is trying to expose of false premises.

    Very good point.

    Quote
    Also I've yet to come across an atheist or anyone for that matter that holds science as sacred.

    Perhaps he mistakes people's faith in the possibilities of science for an immutable faith in the facts of science. Immutable faith being rather his thing perhaps.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #84 - January 11, 2013, 05:35 PM

    Religious people often do project that onto science.  Like the way some creationists are constantly trying to character assassinate Charles Darwin, saying he's a racist or whatever.  They think the Theory of Evolution depends on trusting Darwin's word, the same way that religion depends on taking someone's word on faith, be it Mohammed, Jesus or whoever.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #85 - January 21, 2013, 04:10 AM

    Quote
    Religious people often do project that onto science.  Like the way some creationists are constantly trying to character assassinate Charles Darwin, saying he's a racist or whatever.  They think the Theory of Evolution depends on trusting Darwin's word, the same way that religion depends on taking someone's word on faith, be it Mohammed, Jesus or whoever.


    That's why I kinda cringe when I hear people (scientists included) call themselves darwinists.

    It kind makes it sound similar to a religious sect.  Cuz I mean you don't hear anyone calling himself a Newtonian,  or Saganian.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #86 - March 24, 2013, 11:06 PM

    i watched a video of this conference. It is four hours long so i will just offer some personal highlights.

    At 20 minutes, there is a pretty funny debate between a Muslim evolutionary biologist, and a Harun Yahya moron.
    The scientist had a lot of interesting things to say that Muslims need to hear. He started by debunking a list of really common misconceptions about evolution and had some original examples to illustrate his points from his own lab. The Harun Yahya moron replied by stating basically all of these misconceptions that had just been debunked.

    2 hours 23 minutes, Usama Hasan describes a pre Darwinian history of Muslim evolutionary thoughts, and at 3h:12 he explains that the quran is actually perfectly compatible with flat earth theory, geocentrism and many other myths, and for most of Islamic history, the quran has been interpreted in this way.
    He seems to think that evolution is completely compatible with the quran, but his understanding of the evolution isn't quite right.  To me he doesn't sound that far from realising that Islam is myth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbynBJVTWKI

    Overall, I would have to say that the Deen Institute appear to be far less of a joke and an embarrassment than iERA.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #87 - July 18, 2013, 01:19 PM

    Homo Sapien touched on something that stood out to me when he specifically made a point that the person he lost the debate to was a woman. Anyone remember in the Quran it says women have inferior intelligence to men? The thing about growing up with male and female mixing as the norm and it being perfectly acceptable to have close relationships is you know full well how bullshit a statement that is.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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