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Theme Changer

 Topic: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?

 (Read 25337 times)
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  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #30 - December 21, 2012, 02:56 PM

    ................we should support the  rational educated muslims  who support science because they are the ones that are going to lead Islam to becoming a reformed deistic religion like main stream christianity today

    i support ALL MUSLIMS  not just rational educated Muslims  TheDarkRebel.  I don't support their faith.  I reserve the right to criticize the faiths and the actions of faith heads that comes out of them  because of  their faith.  And I give full freedom to them  to criticize me and my rantings.  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #31 - December 21, 2012, 04:05 PM

    Muslims who hang onto such ideas are going to be as dissapointed as Christians.

    The idea that the Earth is 5000 years old or so is nothing intrinsic to Christianity.  It is something some bishop calculated hundreds of years later.
    Even religious nutter Pat Robertson says so.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/trending/2012/11/30/pat_robertson_earth_age_says_planet_is_more_than_6_000_years_old_but_attacks.html
    "Look, I know that people will probably try to lynch me when I say this, but Bishop Ussher wasn't inspired by the Lord when he said that it all took 6,000 years,” Robertson said. “It just didn't. You go back in time; you've got radiocarbon dating. You got all these things, and you've got the carcasses of dinosaurs frozen in time out in the Dakotas."

    Christians who think the Earth is 5000 years old are not believing in Christianity as much as Bishop Ussher or fighting scientific reality.

    In a similar manner, evolution comes in.  Many religious people will rationalize it by saying God guided evolution.
    It just takes enough people to realize the scholars are not eternally wise.

    There is a really good quote I heard from an old Chrisitan scholar that I can't recall, but it was worded so well. Basically urged Christians not to have blind faith in things that are not the core of their faith as they can be disproven and pointless hurt your faith.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #32 - January 06, 2013, 04:18 AM

    Decided to write a short post on the topic. Enjoy!

    Quoting al-Ghazali on Yasir Qadhi Digging His Own Grave
    http://skepticshaykh.com/2013/01/yq-evolution/
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #33 - January 06, 2013, 09:57 PM

    Yasir Qadhi makes excuses for Islamic creationism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE8RyJk-2sE&


    And this guy known as "Dawah Man" goes a bit bonkers over the issues raised in this conference:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yefnWNBAfQ0

    Enjoy the squirming Grin

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #34 - January 06, 2013, 10:00 PM

    Decided to write a short post on the topic. Enjoy!

    Quoting al-Ghazali on Yasir Qadhi Digging His Own Grave
    http://skepticshaykh.com/2013/01/yq-evolution/


    Excellent as always Afro

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #35 - January 07, 2013, 09:41 AM

    This is why you don't mix religion with science. This is less of a debate among Christians and Jews because their religion's credibility doesn't revolve around scientific miracles. Islam made the mistake of using old science and claiming it as a miracle from Allah and fact. Like someone said it's going to be a matter of time before some Muslim claims that evolution is written the Quran. Roll Eyes


    Wow the way you worded that, I suddenly felt really really sorry for Muslims.

    They have to defend a 50 year old prophet who married a 6 year old, a verse that allows wife-beating, they have to believe in Daw'ah/jihad....now they have to be scientists/evolutionists.
     mysmilie_977
    Oy vey!

    Quote
    No person shall have a burden laid on him greater than he can bear.

    2:233

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #36 - January 08, 2013, 06:07 AM

    And this guy known as "Dawah Man" goes a bit bonkers over the issues raised in this conference:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yefnWNBAfQ0



    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #37 - January 08, 2013, 06:18 AM

    this guy known as "Dawah Man" goes a bit bonkers

    Depressingly, a Londoner.

    In a sane world he'd be a market stall trader.

    "Mink blankets. Miiiiiink blankets. Twenty quid each, two for thirty five. Keep your Missus warm with a miiink blanket."

    Oh, what a future he might have had.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #38 - January 08, 2013, 06:55 AM

    The Dawah Man video was so full of desperation, I found it inspiring (and funny). If people like that are so scared, we're all doing something right. Evolution is the boy who called out "The Emperor Has No Clothes!" for literalist Islam, just like for literalist Christianity.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #39 - January 08, 2013, 06:56 AM

    He's admitting that evolution is true "if you look at from a purely scientific perspective" but is desperately trying to save literalist Islam from the scientific facts that even he admits are true and proven. He's scared shitless. This is what is amazing about this moment in time.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #40 - January 08, 2013, 02:22 PM

    He's scared shitless.

    Poor lamb. He'd be better off selling mink blankets.

    "Miiiink blankets. Pure mink. May say polyester on the label, but puuuure mink."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #41 - January 08, 2013, 04:04 PM

    Is it really that hard for a man to just admit that he is wrong?
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #42 - January 08, 2013, 05:10 PM

    Depressingly, a Londoner.


    He's a Manc

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #43 - January 08, 2013, 07:26 PM

    And this guy known as "Dawah Man" goes a bit bonkers over the issues raised in this conference:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yefnWNBAfQ0

    Enjoy the squirming Grin







    How has he not realised throughout his whole speech that saying evolution is proven scientifically implies its likely true. He fails to present an alternative method of fact checking that does not include science. However he will probably say Iman is the alternative method




  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #44 - January 08, 2013, 08:51 PM

    I misunderstood evolution so let me tell you a little story as I don't think I ever have told it on here
    -  I have never been truly devout deep down at any point in my life although I did try my best to do what I could Islamically & did in general believe.  Approximately 10 years ago I felt a need to take an extra step & start to become more practicing so I had just started to read/study Quran, pray etc. more frequently with a view to becoming a practicing muslim. I even started debating in defence of Islam online against people of other faiths but mainly against quite unsophisticated agnostics/atheists. I discovered I was a reasonable debater & could give anyone I encountered a run for their money if the subject was right.
    Anyway, I knew nothing about evolution apart from what I had studied (in quite a lot of depth) from creationist/intelligent design propaganda. I was sure evolution was a false theory & I was on the side of truth but one day I came up against someone (a woman) who was not only incredibly smart (gifted- I'd say) but was deeply knowledgable about science & probably the most talented online debater I have ever encountered.
    To cut a long story short, whilst I put up a good fight she ripped my arguments to shreds by explaining & presenting the multiple lines of evidence for it in such a persuasive manner that I simply had to concede it.  The encounter with her really shook me. After the encounter, I started to delve deeper into the evidence until I realised that it was an irrefutable fact.
    Basically, it was that encounter that made me start to really think critically about everything including Islam & from that point on my whole philosophy changed & that is why I chose the apt name of Homo Sapien when I joined the site.
    The moral of the story - thinking about evolution & the fact that it is true in light of evidence & in spite of what others were telling me had the power to change me into who I am today (a disbeliever) & I believe it has the power to change other muslims too or at least make them think & maybe even doubt.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #45 - January 08, 2013, 11:38 PM

    I am tempted to write and narrate a video response to Mr qadhi.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #46 - January 08, 2013, 11:44 PM

    You really should then! We can host it on the cemb channel or mirror it there if you have a channel setup. Afro

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #47 - January 08, 2013, 11:44 PM

    We really need voices of ExMuslims to start speaking up more. On the Internet, we are all relatively anonymous. We can do this here. Younger ExMuslims need to hear our voices and read our words to know they're not alone.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #48 - January 08, 2013, 11:46 PM

    I am tempted to write and narrate a video response to Mr qadhi.


    If you do we'll pimp the hell out of it for you  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #49 - January 08, 2013, 11:54 PM

    Hearing his response, and imagining all the koofi-wearing Muslims sheepishly nodding in agreement, rely put me in a sour mood today. There are so many points that can be made. He is absolutely right that the Qur'an and the evolution of humans are completely incompatible. However, his conclusions on which one we should disregard, and why, are so willfully misleading it's a shame.

    I know that deep down inside, he must have struggled with the all of the compelling evidence for human evolution. The doubts and internal turmoil that it must have caused him are clear from his introduction. But to have so much pride that he could not come out and admit that he was wrong all along and actually seize the opportunity to lead his followers to the truth really disgusts me.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #50 - January 08, 2013, 11:58 PM

    HM, the guy he debated at this conference is a scientist called Dr Usama Hasan. He used to be an imam at a mosque in east London. Then he made statements about how Islam and evolution are compatible, and tried to harmonise Islam with science and evolution. This is what happened when he was called to the mosque to explain himself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgR-xfJbQcQ

    He received death threats, had to resign, apologise for some of the things he said, left the mosque, and is vilified today by the Salafis and Qadhi's disciples.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #51 - January 09, 2013, 12:01 AM


    Here is another video of Yasir Qadhi speaking on evolution. I'm not sure he's been wrestling with these issues inside at all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJsj7HwJ1Q4

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #52 - January 09, 2013, 12:11 AM

    I misunderstood evolution so let me tell you a little story as I don't think I ever have told it on here
    -  I have never been truly devout deep down at any point in my life although I did try my best to do what I could Islamically & did in general believe.  Approximately 10 years ago I felt a need to take an extra step & start to become more practicing so I had just started to read/study Quran, pray etc. more frequently with a view to becoming a practicing muslim. I even started debating in defence of Islam online against people of other faiths but mainly against quite unsophisticated agnostics/atheists. I discovered I was a reasonable debater & could give anyone I encountered a run for their money if the subject was right.
    Anyway, I knew nothing about evolution apart from what I had studied (in quite a lot of depth) from creationist/intelligent design propaganda. I was sure evolution was a false theory & I was on the side of truth but one day I came up against someone (a woman) who was not only incredibly smart (gifted- I'd say) but was deeply knowledgable about science & probably the most talented online debater I have ever encountered.
    To cut a long story short, whilst I put up a good fight she ripped my arguments to shreds by explaining & presenting the multiple lines of evidence for it in such a persuasive manner that I simply had to concede it.  The encounter with her really shook me. After the encounter, I started to delve deeper into the evidence until I realised that it was an irrefutable fact.
    Basically, it was that encounter that made me start to really think critically about everything including Islam & from that point on my whole philosophy changed & that is why I chose the apt name of Homo Sapien when I joined the site.
    The moral of the story - thinking about evolution & the fact that it is true in light of evidence & in spite of what others were telling me had the power to change me into who I am today (a disbeliever) & I believe it has the power to change other muslims too or at least make them think & maybe even doubt.


    Thanks for sharing that. It is amazing the power of a good debate, no? At that moment, people may not relent because we all have egos to protect. But a good debate will make all parties THINK when they go home, the next day, the days after. I think it is very important to keep intellectual debates going for this reason. And to use kindness more than harshness (though that depends on all the parties involved, not just one). Because at that moment, even if you have the best evidence for your side, you may not get the other party to concede, but you can rest assured, you will have gotten them to think. Even if it takes them a long to admit this openly.

    ETA: I've learned that it's also a good idea, no matter how much I think I know about a topic, there is always something more for me to learn. Even if the person on the other side is acting completely irrationally, there is a lesson in each and every debate I've ever gotten into online and IRL. Even if it's only a clearer idea of how they think or why they would think or act like that, or some level of empathy with them, or understanding their POV, etc.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #53 - January 09, 2013, 12:17 AM

    Hearing his response, and imagining all the koofi-wearing Muslims sheepishly nodding in agreement, rely put me in a sour mood today. There are so many points that can be made. He is absolutely right that the Qur'an and the evolution of humans are completely incompatible. However, his conclusions on which one we should disregard, and why, are so willfully misleading it's a shame.

    I know that deep down inside, he must have struggled with the all of the compelling evidence for human evolution. The doubts and internal turmoil that it must have caused him are clear from his introduction. But to have so much pride that he could not come out and admit that he was wrong all along and actually seize the opportunity to lead his followers to the truth really disgusts me.


    This really would be an amazing contribution. If you want, PM me, and we can talk about making videos. You can do all of the production or we can help you if you want to just do the audio or however you want to do it.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #54 - January 09, 2013, 12:37 AM

    Oh yes Billy, I am very familiar with Usama Hasan and his arguments. I’ve followed the debate quite closely. In some ways, I have slightly more respect (I’m talking just a smidge here) for him than for Yasir Qadhi. At least he does not dismiss all of the overwhelming evidence for human evolution like Yasir does. I was actually in Madina during the same time that Yasir Qadhi was studying there. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to know him very well. Many of the stauncher salafi scholars used to warn against him. I find it very interesting the way the western students are dealing with the issue of evolution. I am guilty of avoiding debates with Muslims like the plague since I was first met with so much hostility when I openly apostated, but I am beginning to feel the importance of at least keeping the debate going. The more stringent, hard core salafis will completely dismiss evolution as a whole and stick to a traditional creationist narrative. The more educated, western students will have no choice but to combat the mountains of evidence stacked against them. I emailed a good friend of mine who graduated from the college of Dawah in Madinah about my views on evolution. (He was actually my room mate, we come from the same state, and I introduced him to his wife—he was my boy.) I asked him to read the book “Why Evolution is True” and to take a guided tour of the exhibit of human origins at the natural history museum before he replied to me. He said he was working on a response, but I still haven’t heard anything. It is interesting to see the logical gymnastics these people are willing to play to avoid the dread of becoming an apostate.
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #55 - January 09, 2013, 12:42 AM

    Yeah I'm really enjoying the sentiments in this thread. Together we can build a better and brighter future (ok that sounded less lame in my head).

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #56 - January 09, 2013, 01:01 AM

    the college of Dawah in Madinah


    I can't help thinking of the King of Dawah twitter account whenever I read that  Smiley

    HM, collect your thoughts on this. Take your time. Write them down. Then contact allat and lets make a movie. You can do this however you want, anonymously, whatever. The most important thing is to get these   perspectives out there.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #57 - January 09, 2013, 01:04 AM

    I agree. I'm down. It will take quite some time though. This isn't something I'd just want to hastily type up on my phone. I want it to be persuasive, not just a presentation of facts (Muslims are good at just dismissing those!).

    [Gracefully bows to the fellow shaolin master]
  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #58 - January 09, 2013, 01:10 AM


    Brilliant! Take your time. Get your thoughts together, write them down, until you've sharpened that argument like that scene in Kill Bill when Uma Thurman goes to see the master Samurai sword maker to get the sharpest motherfucking Samurai sword the world has ever seen - like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=059RKcpkn8A

    (You're the master - your script for the video is that sword - you hand it over to allat and Nesrin who are combined into Uma Thurman)


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Have Muslims misunderstood evolution?
     Reply #59 - January 09, 2013, 01:24 AM

    Yasir Qadhi makes excuses for Islamic creationism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE8RyJk-2sE&


    And this guy known as "Dawah Man" goes a bit bonkers over the issues raised in this conference:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yefnWNBAfQ0

    Enjoy the squirming Grin


    I stopped watching when he said that evolution was supposed to be part of a theological debate.  015

    Man why can't people just read a book and become scientifically literate. I used to be a creationist and then gave it up within a week when I watched some documentaries on it by Richard Dawkins. Like seriously it's very easy to realize that creationism is bunk after reading just one book or documentary by an actual scientist.

    Muslims like to boast about past muslim scientists but barely any muslims actually understand science or want to learn about it just for the sake of learning.
    (Yes I am including muslim creationists with science degrees as part of the scientifically illiterate mass)  

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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