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 Topic: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind

 (Read 2432 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     OP - November 11, 2012, 02:44 PM

    To ex-Muslims:

    I’m currently attending a conference on religion in the US. Yesterday I was in conversation with a Muslim dude from Iran. He asked me about my research and I replied that I was doing a study of ex-Muslims. Previously he had been cordial. Now he became agitated. He said, with a theatrical look of pained incredulity, that he didn’t understand and asked me to repeat myself. I tried again: ‘Ex-Muslims, apostates…murtads!’ He responded, with a smirk, that he had ‘heard of ex-wives, that kind of thing’, but not ex-Muslims. And with that, off he fucked.
    As you know, President Ahmadinnerjacket has loudly proclaimed that gays don’t exist in the Islamic Republic of Iran. This is on a level with that: hence I’m calling this an Ahmadinejad State of Mind.
    I want to write about this type of denial, which, in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary, mutates into a different order of denial: namely, that ex-Muslims left Islam to shag around and to booze it up (i.e. they couldn’t possibly have left for cogent or laudable reasons).
    If anyone has directly encountered these two types of denial, perhaps you can tell me about it and how it went down (either below or via email to me).

    Best wishes,
    Simon
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #1 - November 11, 2012, 02:48 PM

    Let me just add, for the purposes of clarification, that shagging around and boozing it up are of course perfectly LEGITIMATE reasons for leaving Islam…
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #2 - November 11, 2012, 03:40 PM

    He said, with a theatrical look of pained incredulity, that he didn’t understand and asked me to repeat myself. I tried again: ‘Ex-Muslims, apostates…murtads!’ He responded, with a smirk, that he had ‘heard of ex-wives, that kind of thing’, but not ex-Muslims. And with that, off he fucked.

    Yeah, what's up with that?

    Other ex-Muslims I've met on the net have said the same when I told them about this forum.

    18:42   Godot   the laffy taffy, and it's many dense layers of rich metaphors - that of asses, and that of candy, and of shaking
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #3 - November 11, 2012, 05:05 PM

    I tried again: ‘Ex-Muslims, apostates…murtads!’ He responded, with a smirk, that he had ‘heard of ex-wives, that kind of thing’, but not ex-Muslims. And with that, off he fucked.



    *hangs head in shame*.. i was that guy ..  banghead fucking arrogant , i can't believe i ever thought like that  banghead i truly thought i had some sort of upper hand, since allah was on my side.. and those who were exmuslims weren't real muslims to begin with, they were probably non-arabs too, sluts, drug users, that just wanted to fuck around.. giving us real muslims a bad name  banghead ...how dirty did they have to be, not to want to follow the pure and righteous rules of islam..   banghead

    to ever have a decent conversation, the pedestal has to be knocked out from underneath him, hopefully he'll fall real hard...

    denial from conceit (if there is such a thing)..

    Let me just add, for the purposes of clarification, that shagging around and boozing it up are of course perfectly LEGITIMATE reasons for leaving Islam…


     Cheesy Cheesy indeed !  Cheesy
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #4 - November 11, 2012, 05:55 PM

    Haha, Simon!

    Me too, ness. First time I came to an Ex-Muslim website (I was 16/17) I was literally shocked. I couldnt believe people could leave this fantastic and "peachy" (and peaceful!) religion. Roll Eyes

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #5 - November 11, 2012, 07:31 PM


    Seriously, I think that Islam could conceivably have met its nemesis in liberal secular democracy in which free conscience is supreme. Until now bullying and intimidation has kept free voices silent. But it can't be that way forever.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #6 - November 11, 2012, 08:22 PM

    Hi Simon,
    Good to hear from you. Afro

    Interesting post.  I like the name you have chosen for this state of mind. Grin
    I think it goes back to our time in tribes when there would be no dissenters within the in-group. In the west today it is taken for granted that individual adults make their own choices in life and believe their own thought-through beliefs, but religious societies work differently -  religion demands you support the in-group and oppose the out-group without question. This mentality worked very well back in the day to protect each tribe from extinction, or rather the tribes that did not exhibit this behaviour went extinct.
    /ramble

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #7 - November 12, 2012, 01:39 PM

    Well my mum -- when she started doubting my Muslimness -- went on about how she's never heard of people leaving Islam, only people entering it, in droves, all over the world. She also told me about one of her best friends from school who now lives in Europe and left Islam a long time ago; she told me that she has no community, doesn't belong anywhere, is unmarried/childless and is now sad and lonely. This woman now wants to return to Islam (tbh she doesn't sound like she ever left it through rationalism but rather got lazy and ditched Islam for convenience once she got to Europe) but cannot because the ummah won't have her but she will never be accepted by the kuffar (because she's African? Because she's Muslim-y? I don't know, mum never specified) because she can't *really* become one of them so now she's "lost". She didn't explicitly say it but she was saying this as a sort of cautionary tale for me, warning of the dangers of leaving Islam.

    I've learned that my mum sees leaving Islam as betraying your people and trying to be accepted by the kuffar (who have this guttural hatred of anything that is or was ever Muslim); it's a very tribalistic way of seeing things but that's how she sees it. "What's so good about non-Muslims?", "Why would you want to become one of THEM?", "Muslims are good", it's as if it's a family/tribe thing and not a belief thing. I just felt like saying "it's not fucking sports or something, I'm not changing teams; I don't hate or want to be a part of anything, I just don't believe anymore!" but I'm still pretending to be Muslim so tickedoff

    It's a nice system Islam has built; some of the ways it manipulates people, creates intricate self-fulfilling prophecies and rules/structures that work so well at propagating itself plus it's ability to still have followers in the enlightened world despite it's blatant cruelty, misogyny and ludicrousness sometimes made me think "such an excellent memeplex must be divinely inspired!" and Mo may have been quite intelligent.

    Islam is shamelessly triumphalist to a disgusting degree; it establishes itself in the minds of it's adherents as the best thing to happen to humanity since...well, humanity, and as being superior to -- and in fact entitled to rule over -- all other systems. Of course it's also taken for granted that Islam is correct. "We hear and we obey" and we don't let the shaitan whisper in our logic into our ears; Islam needs no proof, it is self-evident. This creates arrogance.

    Islam commands death for apostasy effectively keeping apostates quiet, whilst celebrating and shouting any conversions to Islam from the rooftops hence allowing Muslims to continue to believe that no one leaves (because Islam is so obviously, undeniably true -- this is why apostates are often accused of being debauched or ignorant of Islam b/c in a Muslims' eyes there's no other reason to leave) and people only join.
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #8 - November 12, 2012, 01:40 PM

    Holy fuck, what a rant that was. I didn't realize how long that post was!
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #9 - November 12, 2012, 02:38 PM


    I enjoyed reading it  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #10 - November 12, 2012, 03:37 PM

    Ironic considering the number of ex-muslims in Iran is meant to be massive (as evidenced by belief surveys of Iranians who have left the country).

    Anyway, I think one of the reasons for this aggressive form of denial you sometimes see is that it makes many muslims insecure, not just about their faith. Many muslims like to talk about the number of muslims in the world and they like to feel some sort of bond (1.5billion!) with other muslims, so telling them that their numbers are decreasing or that there is desertion in the ranks might make them feel uncomfortable.

    Uncomfortable or not that doesn't justify this sort of douchey behaviour, I can understand the discomfort in feeling like you've lost some of your so-called community, but treating someone badly because they pointed it out, or because they are ex-muslim is unacceptable. Many muslims are yet to learn this unfortunately.


    Anyway, re your question, I've never seen this sort of behaviour IRL to me directly. mostly because I've told most muslims that I was born muslim but never believed, so they just look at me bemused and say 'oh, cool'. I have seen it directed at others, usually the assumption is that ex-muslims either never were real muslims, still believed in allah in their hearts but wanted to do the haram stuff, or were insane and had lost their minds. I think a lot of muslims talk about it in this way, but a lot of muslims avoid the issue because A) They don't want to think about being wrong B) they are too polite to say that to someone.

    Usually cultural or nominal muslims who don't live in strong muslim communities and who might come from countries where Islam doesn't have a strong grip (f.ex the Balkans, Azerbaijan, Northern Turkey, Lebanon, parts of India, parts of Indonesia, parts of Africa) have a much more relaxed attitude towards ex-muslims as they have encountered people who come from a supposedly muslim background but don't call themselves muslims anymore.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #11 - November 13, 2012, 03:41 PM

    Seriously, I think that Islam could conceivably have met its nemesis in liberal secular democracy in which free conscience is supreme. Until now bullying and intimidation has kept free voices silent. But it can't be that way forever.

    Kind of reminds me of that great Sci Fi novel by Iain M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas". The faith based, dogmatic, fanatics v's the free thinking, right to exist, moralists, except that one was fought on an inter galactic level(in a fictional novel) and sadly this conflict is all to real.

    "Those people, they got nothing in their souls
    And they make our TVs blind us
    From our vision and our goals
    But do you know that Tonight - the streets are ours"
    Richard Hawley
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #12 - November 13, 2012, 05:50 PM

    Even though I dislike Iranian Shia clerics and especially those Arab wannabes but Iran is in the eyes of Western powers to meddle, attack etc, so obviously Iranians will feel quite reluctant to indulge in crap Neo Liberals from the West like to research about.
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #13 - November 13, 2012, 05:53 PM

    crap Neo Liberals from the West like to research about.


    Yeah, researching and raising awareness about the plight of ex-muslims is such neoliberal crap. Hey, everything that isn't getting on a flotilla to fight the little satan is neoliberal crap, right?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #14 - November 13, 2012, 06:02 PM

    Not really, but rest assured, nobody in the west gives a damme about Ex Muslims, and all these attempts by people in the West to give a damme about Murtads in Iran is just all politically motive driven gibberish, homosexuals in Iran LOL, there are enough homophobes in the West to deal with than start dictating to Iran to improve its record of treatment of homosexuals.

    Look at the recent events, West supported Abdul Hakim Belhaj to ruthless rule over Tripoli, even though he was a former gitmo inmate and member of Al Qaeda Libyan Chapter.

    Look at how so called reformist progressives in the West want to arm the Syrian rebels who happen to be Islamofacist terrorists who execute 8 year old children in public.

    The West cares about West, they will leave you to the wolves and all this non sense about progression and rights will be a non-issue when your biting a bullet.

    I learn my lesson from History, look at how the West supported Pakistani ISI scum and Osama to murder my Afghan troops during the 70s etc.

    Iran and this issue of homosexuality is NOTHING, non-issue, ITS JUST a small minor issue the powers in the West want to highlight to get public support to meddle in Iran.

    1000s of Afghan women are forced into prostitution by Iranian border guards, where is the concern by the West for this?

    but Homosexuals with their militant antics are more special!
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #15 - November 13, 2012, 06:15 PM

    Not really, but rest assured, nobody in the west gives a damme about Ex Muslims, and all these attempts by people in the West to give a damme about Murtads in Iran is just all politically motive driven gibberish, homosexuals in Iran LOL, there are enough homophobes in the West to deal with than start dictating to Iran to improve its record of treatment of homosexuals.


    Its called raising awareness. People have to know about a situation to be concerned about it. The whole point of the CEMB and what Simon is doing is to put our struggle out there so people can know about it and be concerned about it. As for comparing homophobes in the West to what Iran is doing... are you serious? State sanctioned jail time and murder for homosexuals in Iran and other muslim nations as compared to what we have in the west? They have it much better here. At least the government isnt trying to jail or kill them.

    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #16 - November 13, 2012, 06:48 PM

    LOL! Pashtun is turning Simon's thread about psychology into a politics debate. *facepalm*

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #17 - November 14, 2012, 11:48 PM

    so back to the OP.. i'm surprised he didn't accuse you of being a jew trying to dismantle islams inner workings and unity in efforts to destroy it .. or at least on the payroll ..
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #18 - November 15, 2012, 03:22 AM

    so back to the OP...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htuP0aEKkOY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbXj8zUL_5I

    Quote
    Shahin Najafi was born in 1980. in Bandar-e Anzali, Iran. When he was six years old his father died and later his brother became a drug addict and also died.[4] He began writing poetry as a teenager and began learning the guitar in the classical and flamenco styles at the age of eighteen. He then became an underground artist in Iran, performing in both rock and Spanish music styles, working with various bands.  He studied sociology at the University of Gilan and openly expressed his opinions about the university, leading to him getting expelled.


    He was head of a underground music band in Iran before his immigration to Germany but he was banned for singing in Iran by the Iranian government after his second music show.[5] He was also the head of «Inan» music band in Germany. Then he joined to «Tapesh 2012» music band. «Tapesh 2012» were welcomed by Persian broadcasters and the international media by political and social songs and poems of shahin najafi


    Fatwas and death threats

    Following release of the song "Ay Naghi!" ("Hey, Naghi!")[15][16], Grand Ayatollah Lotfollah Safi Golpaygani, a Shi’ite cleric based in Qom, issued a fatwa death sentence against Najafi for apostasy.[17] Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem-Shirazi, a "sources of emulation" for many Shia Muslims, also issued a fatwa declaring Najafi guilty of apostasy.[18] As of 15 May 2012, more than 800 people in Iran had joined a Facebook campaign calling for Najafi to be executed, saying they were ready to assassinate Najafi if necessary.[19] An Iranian web site, Shia-Online.ir, offered a $100,000 bounty to anyone who killed Najafi.[20]

    In May 2012, the online site HonareNab.ir posted an online "Shoot the Apostates" flash computer game inviting people to shoot and kill Najafi. “Those who love Imam Hadi can practice killing Shahin Najafi by playing this flash game,” said Honar Nab Eslam, who developed the game.

    On 25 May 2012, Shiite cleric Ahmad Alamolhoda demanded a plan to execute the Najafi.

    In June 2012, forty authors of the Rah-e Nikan religious publishing house promised to give royalties from their books to whoever killed Najafi.


    The song has drawn sharp anger from protesters who believe it is offensive towards Imam Naghi, the tenth Imam in Shi’ite Islam. n an interview  Najafi stated that he was inspired by "The Campaign to Remind Imam Naghi to Shiites" to compose the song. The campaign is a Facebook page that pokes fun at Islamic, and specifically Shi'ite hadiths, with members creating fake, funny hadiths and stories centered around a fictional character named Naghi, who is based on Imam Naghi.

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #19 - November 15, 2012, 05:51 PM

    Hey Pashtun,
    The Iranian guy I spoke with wasn’t, pace your considered analysis, refusing to ‘indulge in crap Neo Liberals from the West like to research about’. He was denying the existence of ex-Muslims. I’m interested in this species of denial.
    You make some legitimate points about the selectivity of moral concern among western political elites, but you are unforgivably insouciant about Iran’s inhumane treatment of gay people.
    'The West’, just like ‘the East’ and ‘the Muslim World’, is an unhelpful abstraction, but then illumination isn’t your aim, is it?
    "The West cares about West, they will leave you to the wolves and all this non sense [sic] about progression and rights will be a non-issue when your [sic] biting a bullet." Oh Pashtun, don’t be so dramatic!
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #20 - November 15, 2012, 06:21 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-1-z54tC-w


    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #21 - November 19, 2012, 12:45 PM

    Simon,

    It doesn't help that people like Ergun Caner and Walid Shoebat are floating around spreading right-wing church propaganda. These phonies are given the platform until, say, Anderson Cooper decides to expose them.

    I bring them up because in my experience, they are used by Muslims to justify the view that ex-Muslims are money snatching frauds. They are a huge disservice to real ex Muslims finmad

    Seriously, I think that Islam could conceivably have met its nemesis in liberal secular democracy in which free conscience is supreme.

     

    I believe that too. We not only don't need religion anymore, but the modern day alternatives (secularism) are so attractive compared that old crap. 

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Re: An Ahmadinejad State of Mind
     Reply #22 - November 19, 2012, 01:33 PM


    If there's something in the room, Pashtun will fight it.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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