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Theme Changer

 Topic: Arif Ahmed

 (Read 24921 times)
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  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #90 - January 26, 2015, 10:27 PM

    it is inductive, but these aplologists are of the opinion that there are two lines of reasoning proving kalam. One is 'inductive science', and the other is the pretending to philosophise about the nature of infinite. Through wishful thinking, they are convinced this second line is pure deduction, therefore certain, and therefore only fools would deny.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #91 - January 26, 2015, 10:45 PM

    Yeah I don't get too hung up on all this abstract philosophical speculation in trying to prove or disprove a God. Even if there is a God, it doesn't make the Bible, Quran, or Book of Mormon any less error filled or man made. This God would have be something inconceivable to have created the universe and all the stars and galaxies. It would have none of the anthropomorphic traits religions ascribe to him/her/it. And I doubt it would give a shit about who some slightly evolved primates sleep with or what food they eat.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #92 - January 26, 2015, 10:59 PM

    One of my philosophy professors, a Christian, pointed out that all the kalam argument really gets you is that the observable universe of cause and effect rests on laws and conditions that are themselves more fundamental.

    This gets you nowhere, however, as a theist, since this view is equally compatible with atheistic materialism, polytheism, or any other world view.  Actually it's probably quite difficult to come up with ANY worldview that it's inconsistent with.  The problem is one of equating 'something must exist beyond the subjects of empirical causal laws' = there is a gigantic tentacled cosmic squid deity behind them.

    You might as well have argued that something else must be determining the character of subatomic particles like neutrons and protons.  Yep, turns out they are made of quarks.  But that doesn't mean that the more granular layer of reality is a god or gods.  It's just something different.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #93 - January 27, 2015, 03:26 AM

    In the kalam, isn't the premise that "everything begins to exist has a cause" and inductive statement in itself? Craig talks about how science confirms this premise and according to hamza, science is based on inductive reasoning. So the kalam, even if it is a deductive argument, uses inductive reasoning to establish its soundness.

    I also don't see how saying that everything that begins to exist must have a cause is more self evident or logical than everything that exists has a cause. It seems to just be a way to exclude God from the logic and is therefore just special pleading


    Premise one is inductive. "Everything" requires one to cite evidence that everything known and unknown has a cause. Everything is a universal statement. However since we have not observed everything the premise is based on induction of known things and applied to the unknown or unexplained such as the pre-Big Bang. This is the problem of induction as no number of observations can make a universal statement. Yet we have a universal statement only made via induction. Ex, The sun "rose" every day for the last X amount of previous days. Thus the sun will raise in the future for X number of days. While highly probably this is not a certainty as a number of events can render the conclusion false. Premise one is not true and the argument is unsound. Simply reject it and demand proof. No theist can provide evidence for everything including the unknown. It is also an argument from ignorance and god of the gaps. The ignorance side is based on the claim that unknown objects begin to exist thus taking a position that since the unknown is neither true nor false a default statement based on previous examples must hold true. God of the gaps in implied when everything, a universal statement, is applied to the unknown with God being found in the unknown. The only reasonable view of the unknown is "I do not know".

    QM fluctuations by it's very nature is uncaused, it is a property it has as part of it's nature. A nature which is observed in comparison to God's nature which is only asserted Bell's test experiments proved the concept of causation in the classical sense fails in quantum physics. So causation can not be universal thus can not be applied to the universe. Again this is the problem of induction with sampling bias.

    Premise one is not self-evident as it is based on causation which is observed. Self-evident requires no formal proof, it is a universal known fact by everyone by it's own defination. The only self-evident truth is "I am". God requires scripture as proof as we had scripture long before we developed causality. Thus God is not self-evident.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #94 - January 27, 2015, 05:03 AM

    The kalam rests upon (1) special pleading and (2) the fallacy of suppressed evidence.
    1 -  I'm still yet to hear a coherent explanation of how God is "timeless", especially a personal God. God chose to bring the universe into existence, then did so. That is an obvious sequence which requires time. Therefore, God must also have an infinite regress.
    2 - Apologists using the first premise that "all things that begin to exist have a cause" intentionally suppress the fact that all things that begin to exist have a material cause. The law of conservation of mass states that no matter is created or destroyed. In other words, everything that has ever began to exist has simply been the reshaping of previously existing matter. Obviously they leave this out as it contradicts their narrative of creation and also poses an infinite regress, which they argue is impossible.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #95 - January 27, 2015, 06:15 AM

    I like theoretical bullshit's response to the kalam.

    http://youtu.be/fRn-mVPIl60

    He has a series of vids about kalam and his interactions with WLC on his channel

    @questioner if you like philosophy I think you'll like his channel

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #96 - January 27, 2015, 10:35 AM

    Theoretical Bullshit is sharp. I was watching him dismantle Matt Slick yesterday on 'objective morality' (Euthyphro).
    As for Kalam, these are good too:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptBZHsmtPZE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_mz_YebHms
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #97 - January 27, 2015, 10:42 AM

      The problem is one of equating 'something must exist beyond the subjects of empirical causal laws' = there is a gigantic tentacled cosmic squid deity behind them.


    most apologists these days arent using just any old kalam. They are using William Lane Craig's Kalam. The one with an extra set of arguments, limiting the properties of this ' fundamental something', to correlate with the definition of mr. God.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #98 - February 23, 2015, 12:31 AM

    Arif is debating Islamic Apologist Ayyaz Mahmood Khan in London on April 1st
    https://www.facebook.com/events/1547323848838856/

    you can buy tickets for £5 if you buy before 10th March
    http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/atheism-or-belief-which-is-evidence-based-tickets-14562267133?aff=es2&rank=1
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #99 - February 23, 2015, 12:42 AM

    "Hosted by The Real Dialogue"

    http://www.therealdialogue.org/about.html

    "The Real Dialogue is an initiative of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, which carries the motto “LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FOR NONE”."

    Does anyone know if the Ahmadi Muslims believe in religious exclusivism ? Specifically, does one need to accept Ghulam Ahmed to get into heaven?

  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #100 - February 23, 2015, 12:45 AM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #101 - February 23, 2015, 01:27 AM


    Does anyone know if the Ahmadi Muslims believe in religious exclusivism ? Specifically, does one need to accept Ghulam Ahmed to get into heaven?

     

    From my brief debates with the people in my uni's ahmadi students association they don't think of him as a full blown prophet in the sense of Muhammad, Jesus and Moses.

    I might be getting the terminology wrong but this is the gist if it. Muslims believe in two levels of Prophets. Rusuls and Nabis.  Rusul's are prophets that come with a book (torah, bible, quran) and nabis are just general prophets without a book.

    Ahmadis believe Mirza to be the latter.  They believe that accepting Muhammad is a requirment to enter into heaven but accepting Mirza is not necessarily a requirement (but helps in their view).



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #102 - February 25, 2015, 11:04 AM

    Does anyone know if the Ahmadi Muslims believe in religious exclusivism ? Specifically, does one need to accept Ghulam Ahmed to get into heaven?


    Yes, they do believe that, because Ghulam Ahmed himself said that anyone who does not believe in him, is not a muslim. So basically Ahamdis don't consider non-ahmadis muslims.

    There was a hilarious discussion about this issue between Ali A Rizvi and an Ahmadi Apologist.
    facebook.com/ali.a.rizvi/posts/10101754813591448?comment_id=10101758112575258&offset=0&total_comments=288

    Basically Rizvi presented the Ahmadi with an unequivocal quote by Ghulam Ahmed

    Quote
    God has revealed to me that every single person who has heard my claim of prophethood and has not accepted me, that person is not a Muslim, and in front of God, is subject to prosecution.


    Ahmadi apologist admits that the quote is correct, Rizvi logically takes that as an affirmation (non-adhmadis are not muslims). Ahmadi apologist gets all upset, hilarity ensues Cheesy
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #103 - February 25, 2015, 06:25 PM

    Quote
    Ahmadi apologist admits that the quote is correct, Rizvi logically takes that as an affirmation (non-adhmadis are not muslims). Ahmadi apologist gets all upset, hilarity ensues


    That was a frustrating thread. In every comment, you can see him painfully trying to not blurt out the words, "yes, those who don't accept Ahmed will burn in hell."
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #104 - February 25, 2015, 06:27 PM

    Arif is debating Islamic Apologist Ayyaz Mahmood Khan in London on April 1st
    https://www.facebook.com/events/1547323848838856/

    you can buy tickets for £5 if you buy before 10th March
    http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/atheism-or-belief-which-is-evidence-based-tickets-14562267133?aff=es2&rank=1


    Let's hope that someone remembers to press the REC button on the camera.

    Oh, and that there's segregated seating.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #105 - March 16, 2015, 12:50 AM

    If the theist definition of Universe is "all of physical reality".....

    And god is outside the universe

    Then god is outside of physical reality

    Therefore God is not real.

    CHECKMATE!

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #106 - March 16, 2015, 02:33 AM

    If you're talking about all reality, you have to allow that's not solely the universe.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #107 - March 17, 2015, 02:24 AM

    Yup, I agree, it depends on the definition of universe (ie this particular space-time that we reside in or other possible space-times or an Omniverse (all of existence)), but I was going by a theist definition that this being the only universe.

    But even if there are other space-times or realms that we do eventually discover, then my argument could still work against those who claim that a god exists.

    If the theist definition of Omniverse is "all of existence".....

    And god is outside the Omniverse

    Then god is outside of existence

    Therefore God does not exist

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #108 - June 25, 2015, 08:02 AM

    standard

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZeExFyARo
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #109 - June 25, 2015, 03:21 PM

    ^^ If anybody can talk for a long time without actually making any valid point it's Hamza Tzortzis.
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #110 - June 25, 2015, 03:22 PM

    recent debate
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn9YnVS0vqs
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #111 - June 26, 2015, 12:48 AM

    Ahmed does a really good job as per usual. None of Khan's arguments were the smallest bit convincing, however, as similar prophesy claims are made and can be falsified for many other religions, including Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saints, etc, so Ahmed didn't really have to do much. Think this was more for the benefit of Khan and Ahmadis to feel like they shared a stage and made a "legitimate" argument with an atheist philosopher.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #112 - June 26, 2015, 09:15 AM

    Quote


    Prophets and Fools ..."I give more credit to the fools that follow a faith than the prophet of that faith for the sustenance and survival of that faith.... "  incidentally  all these faiths are very little to do with  that god thing   but more to do with their faith in their prophets and their respective  religious literature ... so called scriptures..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What you think Arif Ahmed(debates with William Lane Craig)
     Reply #113 - July 10, 2015, 11:42 AM

    I don't think that Ahmed did a very good job with regards to the fine-tuning argument. I used to like the "sample size argument" against FT, but I've recently changed my mind. There are far stronger philosophical arguments against FT.

    Here is a Cosmologist's objection to an argument similar to Ahmed's :

    The short answer is that a universe is possible if it is free from contradiction. For a universe specified by its laws, constants and initial conditions, all we need to know is that its mathematical formulation is self-consistent.
    * For initial conditions, this is easy – the laws of nature, expressed mathematically, define a space of solutions. Each solution is a possible description of a physical system, differing in their initial conditions.
    * For fundamental constants, there is a range of values inside of which the logical consistency of the laws is unaffected. For example, masses make sense from zero to the Planck scale. Negative masses make no sense; masses above the Planck scale need a quantum gravity theory to handle. For all we know, there might not be any such thing as mass above the Planck scale.
    * For the laws themselves, we can check mathematical consistency as we would with the laws that (we hope) describe our universe. It’s not trivial, but there is no problem in principle.

    If the “underlying necessity” is not logical necessity, then what? Physical necessity? Fine-tuning is about changing the laws of nature i.e. changing what is physically possible and/or necessary. If there is a metalaw standing above the laws of nature as we know them, then fine-tuning asks what properties that law needs to have in order for a universe described by that law to be life-permitting. A good example is string theory. Even if string theory contains no free parameters, there are a huge number of solutions characterised by hundreds of parameters. The metalaw exchanges constants for initial conditions. We still have a parameter space to explore and a life-permitting range to identify.


    As for London/Global/Whateverthefuck Dawah Movement, it's good to see that Hamza has moved onto confirmation arguments but I'm not sure if he realises that the confirmation fine tuning argument is also flawed. The primary reason is that the principle of confirmation that he invokes is question begging.


    Tl;dr: Muslim apologists are still years behind their Christian counterparts.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #114 - August 11, 2015, 03:53 AM

    I don't think that Ahmed did a very good job with regards to the fine-tuning argument. I used to like the "sample size argument" against FT, but I've recently changed my mind. There are far stronger philosophical arguments against FT.

    Here is a Cosmologist's objection to an argument similar to Ahmed's :

    As for London/Global/Whateverthefuck Dawah Movement, it's good to see that Hamza has moved onto confirmation arguments but I'm not sure if he realises that the confirmation fine tuning argument is also flawed. The primary reason is that the principle of confirmation that he invokes is question begging.


    Tl;dr: Muslim apologists are still years behind their Christian counterparts.


    Being the math fan you are, is Tzortzis or Ahmed right on the probability contention in regards to the FT? Ahmed did his ungrad in mathematics at Oxford I believe so I'd be surprised if he got this one wrong. 
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #115 - August 11, 2015, 10:19 AM

    Discussing the different interpretations of probability is the domain of philosophy and not mathematics. Really, Ahmed's degree in mathematics isn't very relevant here. Confirmation theory is not mathematics.

    Unfortunately, I would have to admit that Hamza was more correct than Arif. Nonetheless, confirmation fine tuning arguments are still flawed, flawed enough to warrant justified disbelief.

    The very tl;dr version is that basic confirmation arguments require an element of question begging. Other confirmation arguments such as bayesian ones suffer from problems related to prior probability.

    If you adopt confirmation arguments, you also adopt their associated baggage.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #116 - August 11, 2015, 11:16 AM

    Here's the non-tl;dr version of the principle of confirmation:

    (1) Prime principle of confirmation: Given H1 and H2 and an observation O, if P(O|H1)>P(O|H2) then O confirms H1.

    We don't have any method to confirm (1), because (1) is a standard of confirmation. I.e. we cannot compare two hypotheses where the prime principle is a hypothesis, without begging the question.

    Consider the following:

    A=Prime principle of confirmation
    B= Some other hypothesis.
    O= Any observation

    Therefore, the prime principle of confirmation is more likely to be true than B if P(O|A)>P(O|B).
    However, this reasoning already assumes the prime principle to be the case... it is question begging. We want to show A to be the case without presupposing A.

    This is just one problem with the logic behind confirmation arguments.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #117 - August 11, 2015, 12:06 PM

    See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/confirmation/ .

    You don't need to read it all, though. SEP stuff is never a light read. But if you want to read proper philosophy then you should read stuff written by people who know what they're talking about.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #118 - August 11, 2015, 12:27 PM

    Oh jeez Hamza would be so excited to hear that he's right for a change. A lot of that went straight over my head though. I think I'm into philosophy until you speak about it, then I realise how little I know lol
  • Arif Ahmed
     Reply #119 - August 11, 2015, 12:50 PM

    Read stuff by Skyrms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Skyrms) and Hacking(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hacking). They are two of the best when it comes to matters concerning probability, logic, statistics and philosophy. The intersection is most definitely nontrivial.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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