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 Topic: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!

 (Read 44820 times)
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  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #120 - June 23, 2014, 03:56 PM

    I know, it just doesn't make sense to me to not follow most of the religious texts of a religion and then call yourself 'X/Y/Z'.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #121 - June 23, 2014, 05:04 PM

    I know, it just doesn't make sense to me to not follow most of the religious texts of a religion and then call yourself 'X/Y/Z'.

    'X/Y/Z'..?? yz?? Stop insulting me  Lilyesque  finmad

    well i don't care what they call themselves and what they pray., As long as I have the freedom to call stupid religious mambo-jumbo as stupid and if they learn to behave themselves and NOT GET VIOLENT when I call their religious rubbish as stupid stuff  that is good enough and I am OK with it...  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #122 - June 23, 2014, 05:16 PM

    True dat' Yeez!
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #123 - June 23, 2014, 05:19 PM

    This women has serious issues with logic and reasoning. On one hand she believes in an absolute authority then flip-flops to cultural and moral relativism as a defence. I can do this as well. Islam is for the 7th century and has no practical application in the modern world. Also she is quick to use other examples in order to excuse Mo of any wrong doing. Typical deflection. I wonder how this kind of defence would work in other situations? "Yes judge I killed someone but Bob killed 3 people so what I did is not wrong at all. So I am innocent!" Also no one holds John as the pinnacle of humanity. He is an example of a horrible person and a horrible king.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #124 - June 24, 2014, 08:10 AM

    Thing is then logically they would have to chuck out all the hadiths which include apparently information about how to pray.


    Logic!?!

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #125 - June 24, 2014, 09:02 AM

    Logic!?!


    Yup! I know that isn't hipiddydip with the goddy people.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #126 - June 24, 2014, 12:07 PM


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE1l9tmmixI

    I don't know why these educated women need to believe in those stupid hadith of  Aisha and not think about who she was and how old she was when alleged Muhammad consummated her .. Well on that note..

    That relentless guy Imran Firsat is coming up new Asiah/Muhammad movie/tube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz90k9mug24

    well that trailer is NOT really impressive.. it sounds silly..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #127 - June 24, 2014, 12:19 PM

    hmmm i think this video takes things to a whole other extreme, if i recall there were hadiths that show aisha really loved mo

    I dont really know what the true version would be but either way Islam is still not true

    on another note the women in the first video says she has never seen a love like the prophet had for his wife. Fuck she HAS NEVER seen it anyway so what the hell is she talking about.

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #128 - June 24, 2014, 12:51 PM

    hmmm i think this video takes things to a whole other extreme, if i recall there were hadiths that show aisha really loved mo

    I dont really know what the true version would be but either way Islam is still not true

    on another note the women in the first video says she has never seen a love like the prophet had for his wife. Fuck she HAS NEVER seen it anyway so what the hell is she talking about.


    Yup it would be like saying I have never tasted bacon like it before, without ever having eaten bacon.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #129 - December 03, 2014, 04:34 PM

    I and others are being "subtly" accused of being "fascinated" by pedophilia because we discuss Aisha's marriage to Muhammad by some left-wing guy who linked Myriam's article in the OP here.

    I referenced this thread but he disregarded it as people are anonymous and thus can't be taken serious.

    That Muslim countries are using the example as written in ahadith and that is why it is (unfortunately) relevant today is totally ignored by him.

    I usually don't like the term "libtard", but right now... banghead

    I guess we are a bunch of right-wing racist islamophobes to him and he is bravely defending the poor Muslims.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #130 - December 03, 2014, 04:49 PM

    tell him to read about the story of Saffiyah, which is even more horrifying in some ways

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23145.0

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #131 - December 03, 2014, 04:59 PM

    That thread is made by anonymous people too and thus can't be taken serious as he would say Tongue

    I think he is a lost cause. He just wants to shelter the poor Muslims from anything that in his mind can harm them. They are made of the thinnest and most fragile of glass, apparently. They can't even be exposed to their own scripture. That will harm them. They must be protected!

    Nobody was attacking or criticising Muslims - it was just a debate of how the literalist implementation of Sunnah was harming millions of Muslims across the world and eventually someone asked if Muhammad technically was a pedophile (I didn't participate in that latter part of the discussion because I personally think it is irrelevant as it was 1400 years ago).

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #132 - December 03, 2014, 05:07 PM

    got to love those relativist lefties!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #133 - December 03, 2014, 09:11 PM

    Now I miss Yeez.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #134 - December 03, 2014, 09:21 PM

    Where did Yeez go?
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #135 - December 03, 2014, 09:26 PM

    I don't know! But I miss him. I suppose I should have put that into the ¨members we miss¨ thread, but I am short on sleep and self control today. My apologies for OT.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #136 - December 03, 2014, 09:28 PM

    It's fine three!  far away hug
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #137 - December 07, 2014, 09:36 PM

    On one hand she believes in an absolute authority then flip-flops to cultural and moral relativism as a defence.


    It seems almost every Muslim does this, I have seen people mock the west for our ever changing norms then go on to defend Mohammed's child marriage because 'everyone at the time did it so it was fine'  finmad
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #138 - July 10, 2016, 02:22 AM

    well some one sent me that article again.. And CEMB has news link on it., let me that article here before it disappears from web..

    Quote
    The truth about Muhammad and Aisha _Myriam Francois-Cerrah,[/b]

    Writing about Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, the Orientalist scholar W Montgomery Watt wrote: "Of all the world's great men, none has been so much maligned as Muhammad." His quote seems all the more poignant in light of the Islamophobic film Innocence of Muslims, which has sparked riots from Yemen to Libya and which, among other slanders, depicts Muhammad as a pedophile.

    This claim is a recurring one among critics of Islam, so its foundation deserves close scrutiny.

    Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.

    Quote
    They point out that, in seventh-century Arabia, adulthood was defined as the onset of puberty. (This much is true, and was also the case in Europe: five centuries after Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, 33-year-old King John of England married 12-year-old Isabella of Angoulême.) Interestingly, of the many criticisms of Muhammad made at the time by his opponents, none focused on Aisha's age at marriage.

    According to this perspective, Aisha may have been young, but she was not younger than was the norm at the time. Other Muslims doubt the very idea that Aisha was six at the time of marriage, referring to historians who have questioned the reliability of Aisha's age as given in the saying. In a society without a birth registry and where people did not celebrate birthdays, most people estimated their own age and that of others. Aisha would have been no different. What's more, Aisha had already been engaged to someone else before she married Muhammad, suggesting she had already been mature enough by the standards of her society to consider marriage for a while. It seems difficult to reconcile this with her being six.

    In addition, some modern Muslim scholars have more recently cast doubt on the veracity of the saying, or hadith, used to assert Aisha's young age. In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.

    Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.

    Sadly, in many countries, the imperatives motivating the marriage of young girls are typically economic. In others, they are political. The fact that Iran and Saudi Arabia have both sought to use the saying concerning Aisha's age as a justification for lowering the legal age of marriage tells us a great deal about the patriarchal and oppressive nature of those regimes, and nothing about Muhammad, or the essential nature of Islam. The stridency of those who lend credence to these literalist interpretations by concurring with their warped view of Islam does not help those Muslims who seek to challenge these aberrations.

    Quote
    The Islamophobic depiction of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha as motivated by misplaced desire fits within a broader Orientalist depiction of Muhammad as a philanderer. This idea dates back to the crusades. According to the academic Kecia Ali: "Accusations of lust and sensuality were a regular feature of medieval attacks on the prophet's character and, by extension, on the authenticity of Islam."


    Since the early Christians heralded Christ as a model of celibate virtue, Muhammad – who had married several times – was deemed to be driven by sinful lust. This portrayal ignored the fact that before his marriage to Aisha, Muhammad had been married to Khadija, a powerful businesswoman 15 years his senior, for 25 years. When she died, he was devastated and friends encouraged him to remarry. A female acquaintance suggested Aisha, a bright and vivacious character.

    Quote
    Aisha's union would also have cemented Muhammad's longstanding friendship with her father, Abu Bakr. As was the tradition in Arabia (and still is in some parts of the world today), marriage typically served a social and political function – a way of uniting tribes, resolving feuds, caring for widows and orphans, and generally strengthening bonds in a highly unstable and changing political environment. Of the women Muhammad married, the majority were widows. To consider the marriages of the prophet outside of these calculations is profoundly ahistorical.


    Quote
    What the records are clear on is that Muhammad and Aisha had a loving and egalitarian relationship, which set the standard for reciprocity, tenderness and respect enjoined by the Qur'an. Insights into their relationship, such as the fact they liked to drink out of the same cup or race one another, are indicative of a deep connection which belies any misrepresentation of their relationship.


    To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona. She was certainly no wallflower. During a controversial battle in Muslim history, she emerged riding a camel to lead the troops. She was known for her assertive temperament and mischievous sense of humour – with Muhammad sometimes bearing the brunt of the jokes. During his lifetime, he established her authority by telling Muslims to consult her in his absence; after his death, she went to be become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time.

    A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering woman.

    Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.

    • This article was amended on 17 September 2012. It originally stated that King John was 44 when he married Isabella of Angoulême. This has been corrected.

    well I hope Myriam Francois-Cerrah will not give her 0 or 19 year old daughter to some 53 year old guy  just because he sounds like prophet material

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #139 - July 18, 2016, 01:04 AM

    I was thinking about Muhammad and Maryam today and it made me feel really sad and disgusted. I can't believe how I thought their marriage was okay and even something to be proud of. It's one of those things I knew deep down didn't feel right but then at the same time I'd defend Muhammad passionately. I was always taught if something didn't make sense it was because I didn't understand Allah's wisdom and if I questioned Allah it meant I was listening to the whispers of shaytaan. So I never allowed myself to think freely till now.

    The justification I heard the most was that it wasn't Muhammad's choice to marry Aisha at age 6 but a command from Allah, which Muhammad obeyed as his messenger. And that made it fine because Allah is the one with infinite wisdom. I accepted this but still had that niggling feeling inside but didn't dare speak of it. So when I went to an event where the speaker said that Aisha was actually 16 when Muhammad married her I latched onto this 'truth' as I was more comfortable with it. Although I don't recall him giving any evidence of her being 16.

    Now I can't believe how so many people see Muhammad as a 'perfect' role model including parents with young daughters. I have a 4 year old niece and sometimes I just want to scream at her religious parents and say 'how would you feel if a 54 year old man wanted to marry your daughter in 2 years time?' But of course I can't do this. I just don't understand. Waking up to the reality of what an abusive man Muhammad was is so painful for me, it's like mourning the death of a loved one but worse.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #140 - July 18, 2016, 01:19 AM

    I was thinking about Muhammad and Maryam today and it made me feel really sad and disgusted. I can't believe how I thought their marriage was okay and even something to be proud of. It's one of those things I knew deep down didn't feel right but then at the same time I'd defend Muhammad passionately. ........

    hellooo  SetMeFree., didn't read you much so welcome to the forum.,  Those highlighted words of yours are not really UNCOMMON and millions of folks in Islam as well in their faiths have that problem.,  It is human perceptive problem and is well known in  psychology,  called  cognitive dissonance So you should not worry about that now.,  You see if people openly questioned that relationship right from the beginning.,  Early Muslim writers could have written different story out of Aisha.   I  am one of those guys who aggressively question the existence of Aisha and her relationship with the original preacher of  Islam(The first Muhammad) .

    "Quran doesn't mention name of Aisha .. hence  there was no Aisha in Islam.."  grin12

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #141 - July 18, 2016, 11:03 PM

    Thanks yeezevee... Aisha wasn't real? I haven't heard that before, I'm a bit confused.
  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #142 - July 18, 2016, 11:48 PM

    ...

    "Quran doesn't mention name of Aisha .. hence  there was no Aisha in Islam.."  grin12



    Yeez, by that reasoning, what about Khadijah ? 

  • Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #143 - July 20, 2016, 01:33 PM

    Thanks yeezevee... Aisha wasn't real? I haven't heard that before, I'm a bit confused.


    Yeeze is questioning the validity of everything is written in the Hadiths. And he is right, no credible historian will accept anything from the Hadiths as historical evidence, because they were written cca 200 years after the death of Mohammed. The historians usually accept as historical evidence, events narrated no more than 30 years after they have happened and usually from multiple sources. And there are other criteria as well. There may be valid stories in the Hadiths, but how do we know which one is and which one is not?

    Problem is that until Yeeze will be nominated as the head of all Islamic universities around the world, these collection will be accepted more or less as an accurate description of the life of Mohammed.

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