Shit Muslims Say To Ex-Muslims
Reply #608 - June 25, 2015, 09:36 AM
I've only had one real conversation with a Muslim about it, she posted something on facebook about "No suffering is pointless, God has a purpose for all of it." And I said that it doesn't really seem like that's true, there seems to be an awful lot of pointless suffering, why are there entire families, including children, dying of starvation? Why are there so many incurable diseases that can strike people randomly, regardless of their faith? It doesn't seem like all the suffering in the world could possibly be directed by someone who is supposed to be benevolent, it seems like it's random chance.
And she said basically "there are people who have it worse than you", and I said I'm sure there are, but if you just quantify the bad things I've endured and the bad things other people have endured on some sort of trauma scale, I've certainly been through more than most people. Not all, but most. And just because there are people who have suffered worse than me doesn't make their suffering more or less pointless than mine, and doesn't indicate that someone benevolent is protecting me from having it worse than them.
So then she said "so why do you exist?" and I said that it's not necessarily good or a gift that I'm alive; statistically, we're probably in a multiverse where there are just as many alive mes as dead mes, so it's just chance that I happen to be alive in this universe. If I wasn't alive in this universe, then we wouldn't be having the conversation, so it's a moot point that I exist; it's a given that I am alive in any universe where we're having a conversation, doesn't prove anything.
So then she says "Do you think that you will not be tested in life? That you will live without seasons of extreme hardships and ease? Come on. Who do you think you are to think that your creator would not test you?" So I replied "why would they need to be so horrific? As Ben Sisko said, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise", so I can kinda see what you mean by that, but at the same time, it's possible to have tests of character without super horrific trauma. We can develop morality tests for mice that don't traumatize them or place them in serious jeopardy to see how they react...those are basically morality trials, but they're not nearly as horrific as the suffering in the human world."
So she says "If you want an easy life in this part.....get as far away from God as you can. Stop believing in God. Forget that a God exists. Do anything good or bad that you want. Be in control of the life. I promise the life will be easssssssy. But your death will be infinitely worse than your past traumas." So I replied: "Good and bad things happen at about the same rate regardless of religious beliefs....I don't see how leaving religion would stop trauma from happening or heal the pain of past trauma"
"It is your choice to believe or not believe. If you say that good and bad happen at the same rate with or without a religion....then you better be ready to be wrong when your soul leaves your body. If you are correct about there not being a God then a religion is not going to help or hurt you. However. If there is indeed a God that wants to test you and see if you truly worship him and you die without worship....yikes. You have to decide what do you want. Since you are in control of your life. If it was me. I would rather take the trauma and use it to earn a higher eternal life than to waste that pain on the belief that I have faced too much pain for there to be a God. I'd also use that trauma to help victims of worse traumas than me. Satan is evil and has destroyed so many people. While Satan doesn't have control he does have permission to tempt us to doing extremely evil things. And God only allows certain temptations to certain people. The true believers used to get scared when they were not facing hardships. Like I said. You can believe as you wish. But be ready for the consequences of your choices."
Me: The first part is just a variant of pascal's wager, and there are plenty of answers to that online. The majority my suffering was largely not the result of my action or inaction, it was due to the actions or inaction of other people (usually the people who were supposed to be protecting me as a child), so how could it have been meant to tempt me? If it was meant to tempt the other person, isn't there a way to set up the test without harming an innocent child? Why would a benevolent, wise, infinitely powerful being expose a child to trauma as a way to test the actions of someone else, when the child can't resist or escape from the trauma? Why not set up the test in such a way that the victim isn't able to experience harm--like why not have it be a limited AI with no feelings or comprehension of what was happening?
"I don't know honey. All I know is that without a doubt there is a God that is in control of everything. That the God has so much mercy and grace. And that one day we will be tested for everything we said and did and intended. I can only hope that you would be strong in this life that is for just a verrrrrry short time compared to the eternal life. I really hope that you don't let Satan destroy you. You was [sic] so very close to getting a huge reward in your eternal life."
And at that point I just gave up. Didn't see a point in saying there's no evidence we can survive our deaths, or that if there is a god, its actions do not indicate that it has mercy or grace.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
Topic: Shit Muslims Say To Ex-Muslims