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 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

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  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #150 - May 11, 2012, 01:11 PM

    There was not "a" plague.  There were extremely bad years then reoccurrence annually each summer with different strengths.  It is a myth that the great fire of London wiped out plague in Britain - we don't know why it stopped decades later, it might reoccur.

    And the vast majority of troops were "barbarian".

     

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #151 - May 14, 2012, 04:14 PM

    I've downloaded the book. Not sure what will be so different and I doubt it has much of an impact on Muslims.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #152 - May 14, 2012, 04:28 PM

    What is impressing me is the discussion of how the Arab Empire spread, the factions, the invention of Jihad, the creation of the role of the prophet and the serious reverses that happened - like the failure to take Constantinople.  The parts about slavery are terrifying - were males castrated?  I love the parts about not wanting converts to Islam because they bring baggage - like cleaning teeth and praying five times!

    The propaganda about crusaders is fascinating from this perspective!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #153 - May 14, 2012, 04:44 PM


    He has featured on the website 'loonwatch' following the Bowersock review, charging him basically with being part of the grand conspiracy against Islam, and being compared to Robert Spencer, Breivik  and so on. He's replied in their comments with considerable restraint, and says some important things.


    +++++



    I understand your concern – and, perhaps, if I belonged to a minority in Europe at the moment, I might well share it. But that said, and putting to one side Anders Breivik – who is no more representative of mainstream European opinion than the London suicide bombers were of mainstream Muslim opinion – the challenge faced by Muslims in Europe is that most Europeans today regard religon, let alone Islam, as something alien and unfathomable. In that context, let me quote you the final paragraphs of my book:

    “The peoples of late antiquity, then, when they imagined themselves to be living through the End Days foretold by the prophet Daniel, had been mistaken. Not the empire of the pagan Romans, nor that of their Christian successors, nor that of the Ishmaelites had proved to be the Fourth Beast. Nevertheless, those who saw in the convulsions of the age a process of transformation unlike any other, by means of which a kingdom would end up established on earth ‘which shall be different from all the kingdoms’, were not so far wrong. Caesars, Shahanshahs and Caliphs, none of them remain – but the words of the rabbis who taught in Sura, the bishops who met in Nicaea and the ulama who studied in Kufa still shape the world as living things today. There could be no more conclusive testimony to the impact of the revolution witnessed by late antiquity than the existence, in the twenty-first century, of billions upon billions of people who profess belief in a single god and lead their lives in accordance with that belief.

    The pen, it seems, is indeed mightier than the sword.”

    My argument is twofold: that we are all of us, even the most determinedly atheistic and secular, the legatees of monotheism; and that Islam, far from coming like lightning from a clear blue sky, is a bloom sprung from the same seedbed as Judaism and Christianity. As a believing Muslim, you will, of course, declare your conviction that God did indeed reveal Himself to Muhammad in Mecca and Medina, and that to attempt to find human explanations for the Qur’an is a waste of effort. Equally, since I am not a Muslim, I am sure you will accept that I find such an explanation inadequate. That being so, should I shrink from applying to the Arab empire the same spotlight that I have sought to shine on the Roman or the Persian empires? That I do not believe the literal truth of Livy’s account of the origins of Rome does not in any way diminish my admiration for Roman civilisation – just as my questioning of the literal truth of Muslim tradition should not be interpreted as ‘loonacy’. On the contray – what I am doing, I hope, is showing to non-Muslims how Islam evolved as a civilisational solution to a period of devastating crisis – and that it achieved in the Middle East what Christianity achieved in Western Europe – the establishment of a moral and ethical framework that enabled rampant savagery to be tamed. Europe is never going to convert to Islam – but if Europeans can be brought to see in the evolution of Islam correspondences with their own history, and to recognise that Christendom and the House of Islam are both rooms in the same house, then I think that is no bad thing.

    Thank you for giving me the chance to express myself here, and for reprinting my reply to Professor Bowersock – I appreciate it.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/05/glen-bowersock-in-the-shadow-of-the-sword-by-tom-holland-review/


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #154 - May 14, 2012, 04:45 PM

    I've downloaded the book. Not sure what will be so different and I doubt it has much of an impact on Muslims.


    It won't have any impact on Muslims because Muslims won't believe it. But for "Muslims" that still believe in Allah and Muhammad but do not neccesarily believe that everything in the Sunnah is correct then it could have immense implications.

    The idea that the real location of Mecca was Mamre in Palestine and not Saudi Arabia. And that Muhammad and the Quraysh tribe hailed from Palestine, not the Hejaz. That has massive implications of the current Palestine-Isreal conflict.

    No longer are the Muslim Arabs a foriegn people that arrived in the region in the wake of an invasion. But were actually the result of a local, popular uprising, Islam is no longer an ideology brought to Palestine by a foriegn army but it actually developed in Palestine itself. Just think of the propoganda implications.

    Of course it will never be used in that way because for Muslims to accpet that Mecca may not have been located where it is thought to be located today would also mean accepting that virtually the entire story of Muhammad is a fabrication, which would be very uncomfortable territory for Muslims....
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #155 - May 14, 2012, 05:10 PM

    virtually the entire story of Muhammad is a fabrication, which would be very uncomfortable territory for Muslims....


    You don't say?! DERP


    Cheesy

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #156 - May 14, 2012, 05:21 PM

    It won't have any impact on Muslims because Muslims won't believe it. But for "Muslims" that still believe in Allah and Muhammad but do not neccesarily believe that everything in the Sunnah is correct then it could have immense implications.

    The idea that the real location of Mecca was Mamre in Palestine and not Saudi Arabia. And that Muhammad and the Quraysh tribe hailed from Palestine, not the Hejaz. That has massive implications of the current Palestine-Isreal conflict.

    No longer are the Muslim Arabs a foriegn people that arrived in the region in the wake of an invasion. But were actually the result of a local, popular uprising, Islam is no longer an ideology brought to Palestine by a foriegn army but it actually developed in Palestine itself. Just think of the propoganda implications.

    Of course it will never be used in that way because for Muslims to accpet that Mecca may not have been located where it is thought to be located today would also mean accepting that virtually the entire story of Muhammad is a fabrication, which would be very uncomfortable territory for Muslims....

    rest of your post is OK but I don't get those highlighted words Tonyt.,  what propaganda implications would you foresee for Israel and Jewish folks if people start believing  that Muhammad and the Quraysh tribe hailed from Palestine, not the Hejaz??

    And would that be better for the present Palestinian heroes of Islam??

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #157 - May 14, 2012, 05:31 PM

    I thought I explained it pretty clearly. The Israelis would not be able to argue that Arabs took Palestine in a military conquest if Muhammad and his ancestors were actually from Palestine and Islam itself began there. Does that make sense?
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #158 - May 14, 2012, 11:23 PM

    ^ Not really, because the Israelis could always claim a prior ownership of the Palestine area (several hundred years B.C).

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #159 - May 15, 2012, 12:08 AM

    He has featured on the website 'loonwatch' following the Bowersock review, charging him basically with being part of the grand conspiracy against Islam, and being compared to Robert Spencer, Breivik  and so on. He's replied in their comments with considerable restraint, and says some important things.


    +++++



    I understand your concern – and, perhaps, if I belonged to a minority in Europe at the moment, I might well share it. But that said, and putting to one side Anders Breivik – who is no more representative of mainstream European opinion than the London suicide bombers were of mainstream Muslim opinion – the challenge faced by Muslims in Europe is that most Europeans today regard religon, let alone Islam, as something alien and unfathomable. In that context, let me quote you the final paragraphs of my book:

    “The peoples of late antiquity, then, when they imagined themselves to be living through the End Days foretold by the prophet Daniel, had been mistaken. Not the empire of the pagan Romans, nor that of their Christian successors, nor that of the Ishmaelites had proved to be the Fourth Beast. Nevertheless, those who saw in the convulsions of the age a process of transformation unlike any other, by means of which a kingdom would end up established on earth ‘which shall be different from all the kingdoms’, were not so far wrong. Caesars, Shahanshahs and Caliphs, none of them remain – but the words of the rabbis who taught in Sura, the bishops who met in Nicaea and the ulama who studied in Kufa still shape the world as living things today. There could be no more conclusive testimony to the impact of the revolution witnessed by late antiquity than the existence, in the twenty-first century, of billions upon billions of people who profess belief in a single god and lead their lives in accordance with that belief.

    The pen, it seems, is indeed mightier than the sword.”

    My argument is twofold: that we are all of us, even the most determinedly atheistic and secular, the legatees of monotheism; and that Islam, far from coming like lightning from a clear blue sky, is a bloom sprung from the same seedbed as Judaism and Christianity. As a believing Muslim, you will, of course, declare your conviction that God did indeed reveal Himself to Muhammad in Mecca and Medina, and that to attempt to find human explanations for the Qur’an is a waste of effort. Equally, since I am not a Muslim, I am sure you will accept that I find such an explanation inadequate. That being so, should I shrink from applying to the Arab empire the same spotlight that I have sought to shine on the Roman or the Persian empires? That I do not believe the literal truth of Livy’s account of the origins of Rome does not in any way diminish my admiration for Roman civilisation – just as my questioning of the literal truth of Muslim tradition should not be interpreted as ‘loonacy’. On the contray – what I am doing, I hope, is showing to non-Muslims how Islam evolved as a civilisational solution to a period of devastating crisis – and that it achieved in the Middle East what Christianity achieved in Western Europe – the establishment of a moral and ethical framework that enabled rampant savagery to be tamed. Europe is never going to convert to Islam – but if Europeans can be brought to see in the evolution of Islam correspondences with their own history, and to recognise that Christendom and the House of Islam are both rooms in the same house, then I think that is no bad thing.

    Thank you for giving me the chance to express myself here, and for reprinting my reply to Professor Bowersock – I appreciate it.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/05/glen-bowersock-in-the-shadow-of-the-sword-by-tom-holland-review/



     I dropped him a compliment on his professionalism and restraint on Facebook and he wished me a good read tomorrow when it arrives tomorrow. He seems cool as ice. He was chatting with an imam over twitter about, of all things, gardening.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #160 - May 15, 2012, 04:27 AM

    He was chatting with an imam over twitter about, of all things, gardening.

    That's a veritable minefield.

    Species or hybrids? Chemical or organic? Free or formal?
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #161 - May 15, 2012, 05:07 AM

    Why do you present it as a series of mutually exclusive dichotomies?

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #162 - May 15, 2012, 09:28 AM

    He was chatting with an imam over twitter about, of all things, gardening.


    If its the fella I wrote about here, that guy is an archetypal smiling imam with a forked tongue

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=20351.0


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #163 - May 15, 2012, 09:43 AM

    ....
    I wish the book was more specific about what plague he is talking about. He does not mention it by name or provide a source. I am assuming, though not certain, that he is talking about the Plague of Justinian which occurred 100 years prior to the Islamic Conquest and actually coincides with some of Rome's most prolific military expansion.


    By the time Justinian's plague had run its course in AD 590, it had killed as many as 100 million people -- half the population of Europe -- brought trade to a near halt, destroyed an empire and, perhaps, brought on the Dark Ages.
    http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/anempiresepidemic.html

    As the disease spread to port cities around the Mediterranean, the struggling Goths gained an edge in their conflict with Constantinople. The plague weakened the Byzantine Empire at a critical point, when Justinian's armies had nearly wholly retaken Italy and the western Mediterranean coast; this evolving conquest could have credibly reformed the Western Roman Empire and united it with the Eastern under a single emperor for the first time since the year 395. The plague may also have contributed to the success of the Arabs a few generations later in the Byzantine-Arab Wars.

    Throughout the Mediterranean basin, until about 750, the plague returned in each generation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #164 - May 15, 2012, 10:30 AM

    Quote
    He does not mention it by name or provide a source.


    ref 35 p 467 Weichman and Grupe

    ref 43 p 468  Michael Moronry in Little p 73

    Ref 54

    ref 69 p 469 Hugh Kennedy (Little p95)

    Little is Lester K Little Plague and the End of Antiquity:  The Pandemic of 541 - 750 (Cambridge 2007)

    Quote
    Plague And the End of Antiquity: The Pandemic of 541-750


    Lester K. Little
    0 Reviews
    Cambridge University Press, 2007 - 360 pages

    Plague was a key factor in the waning of Antiquity and the beginning of the Middle Ages. Eight centuries before the Black Death, a pandemic of plague engulfed the lands surrounding the Mediterranean Sea and eventually extended as far east as Persia and as far north as the British Isles.

    Its persisted sporadically from 541 to 750, the same period that witnessed the distinctive shaping of the Byzantine Empire, a new prominence of the Roman papacy and of monasticism, the beginnings of Islam and the meteoric expansion of the Arabic Empire, the ascent of the Carolingian dynasty in Frankish Gaul and, not coincidentally, the beginnings of a positive work ethic in the Latin West.

     In this volume, the first on the subject, twelve scholars from a variety of disciplines-history, archaeology, epidemiology, and molecular biology- have produced a comprehensive account of the pandemic's origins, spread, and mortality, as well as its economic, social, political, and religious effects. The historians examine written sources in a range of languages, including Arabic, Syriac, Greek, Latin, and Old Irish. Archaeologists analyze burial pits, abandoned villages, and aborted building projects. The epidemiologists use the written sources to track the disease's means and speed of transmission, the mix of vulnerability and resistance it encountered, and the patterns of reappearence over time.

    Finally, molecular biologists, newcomers to this kind of investigation, have become pioneers of paleopathology, seeking ways to identity pathogens in human remains from the remote past.


    http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Plague_And_the_End_of_Antiquity.html?id=DKhLOd6gGlAC

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #165 - May 15, 2012, 12:54 PM

    ref 35 p 467 Weichman and Grupe

    ref 43 p 468  Michael Moronry in Little p 73

    Ref 54

    ref 69 p 469 Hugh Kennedy (Little p95)


    Ok so he does provide some citations on the plague. Thanks for setting me straight Moi.

    By the way the Muslims are going to love this whole plague thing. Yet more proof that Allah was on their side all along.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #166 - May 15, 2012, 05:03 PM

    Why do you present it as a series of mutually exclusive dichotomies?

    I was not intending to, oh eagle-eyed pedant.

    A weak pleasantry was more what I had in mind.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #167 - May 15, 2012, 05:33 PM

    What is fascinating is how the last revelation of God turns quite quickly into very nasty civil war, horrendous battles where thousands are enslaved, and interestingly for folk who have god with them, several serious defeats for example at Tours and Constantinople.

    And of course five hundred years later the mongols do destroy their new Jerusalem - Baghdad.

    I love the way the Crusades have been portrayed as the Infidel West attacking God's people when the reality is there had been several centuries of provocation before hand!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #168 - May 15, 2012, 05:33 PM

    It's funny that the subtitle of the first chapter is 'Between Two Worlds' about a year ago (more than a year I think) I started an autobiography thing just for myself, for therapeutic reasons, and titled it 'Between Two Worlds' Tongue

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #169 - May 15, 2012, 05:56 PM

    I love the way the Crusades have been portrayed as the Infidel West attacking God's people when the reality is there had been several centuries of provocation before hand!


    According to Muslims, once a nation is conquered by a Muslim army it becomes part of "Dar-Al-Islam". And any attempt to reconquer it by infidels is considered "unprovoked aggression".  wacko

    Traditionally, Western liberals have for some reason gone along with this so even they see the Crusades as some unprovoked aggression on the Islamic World. They don't see the wider context of the Crusades as just part of a long struggle against Jihad, which has mainly be waged on the defensive rather than the offfensive front.

    The only real exception to this is the Spanish Reconquista, where, according to Western historians, the Spanish "reconquered" Spain from the Moors. But really the Crusades were also a "reconquest". The only real diffrence is that Spain is part of Europe so it is considered fair game for reconquest. But the Levant is not considered part of Europe so is off-limits. The irony to this of course is that the concept of a division between "Europe" and "Asia" was actually created by the Rise of Islam in the first place. Prior to Islam all of the Mediterranean was part of Christian/Roman Civilization.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #170 - May 15, 2012, 07:13 PM

    and Israel?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #171 - May 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

    I am talking about the way the Crusades are typically viewed by Western historians. I have no comment regarding the modern state of Isreal.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #172 - May 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

    From History Today:


    They've since added a podcast audio interview with Tom Holland on the site:

    http://www.historytoday.com/blog/2012/04/history-today-podcast-april-25th
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #173 - May 17, 2012, 01:20 PM

    Featured in J&M!


    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #174 - May 17, 2012, 01:29 PM

     
    Grin

    That's brilliant - I actually made a note of that Mary being nurtured by a palm tree thing it is so insightful.

    That guy who does those cartoons is seriously good.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #175 - May 17, 2012, 01:41 PM

    I looked into that palm tree thing after you mentioned it some time ago, Billy. Interesting stuff. The birth under a palm tree near a stream is from Leto's giving birth to Apollo and Artemis. The extra details about the tree giving fruit and Jesus talking from the womb appear later in the Gospel of pseudo Matthew.

    There are some details here and Sulemain Mourad wrote an article about it, partly visible in google preview:

    Suleiman Mourad, “Mary in the Qur'an″, in The Qur’ān in Its Historical Context, Ed. Gabriel Said Reynolds, p.169, New York: Routledge, 2007

    A few weeks ago my friend mentioned a documentary in which pagans converting to Christianity adapted stories about Artemis to Mary. Seems to me like a very convincing case of adaptation and borrowing. The Greek connection makes it harder for Muslims to argue that both the Qur'an and pseudo Matthew are recounting true events.

    -------------

    I also came across a discussion on an academic blog in which Tom defends himself against a suggestion that he fits some sort of Dan Brown model, lonesomely opposing establishment thinking. The subject of the blog article is about the simplification and the non-mentioning (or relegation to endnotes) of academic controversies in many popular history books.

    http://bristolclassics.wordpress.com/2012/05/14/why-i-shall-clearly-never-be-a-popular-writer-of-history/
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #176 - May 17, 2012, 02:12 PM


    Cheers nJ7  Afro

    Yeah, it is fascinating. Would love to read more on stuff like the palm-tree anecdote that suggests antecedents going far beyond Judaism & Christian origins in Quran, Hadith etc.

    By the way, every time anyone comes to Tom Holland in these discussions, they end up looking diminished. He is seriously good. He's had a fair amount of ad hominem thrown at him, as you would have expected. But he counters them excellently, even in the face of some nasty insinuations about his motives, and keeps it cool and focussed and full of clarity.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #177 - May 17, 2012, 08:37 PM

    Where in the qur’an does it say that about Mary?

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #178 - May 18, 2012, 04:58 PM

    Where in the qur’an does it say that about Mary?


    It's Sura Maryam 19:20-26

    20 She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
    21 He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "
    22 So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
    23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."
    24 But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
    25 And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
    26 So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.'

    Sahih International

    Suleiman Mourad apparently wrote an acclaimed and frequently cited article about it called ''From Hellenism to Christianity and Islam: The Origin of the Palm-tree Story Concerning Mary and Jesus in the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew and the Qur'an". You can read someone's summary of it in page 538-539 in this this google books preview.

    I think maybe the best example of a demonstrably false legend incorporated into the Qur'an is the legend about Alexander the Great / poems about Dhu'l Qarnayn which appear in Qur'an 18:83-101.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #179 - May 19, 2012, 10:21 PM

    Hahaha, thank you for that Afro. And to think I used to accept as true a book that has crap like that in it…

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