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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

 (Read 40529 times)
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  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #90 - April 17, 2012, 01:48 PM

    Quote
    Are you referring to this theory that Islam developed in Palestine and not in the Hejaz?


    No, as yet I have not read that.

    I'm referring to how the Quran was an outgrowth of all that existed before and was cut and pasted from references, imagery, ideas and plaigarised improvisations to serve the nascent and growing needs of the Arab / Islamic imperium.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #91 - April 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

    The book (the Tom Holland one I mean) appears to be only available in hardcover, which I hate (so heavy). At least that is what is available on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk.

    Did you get it in hardcover Billy?

    Shouldn't we have a seperate section in this forum about discussing books?
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #92 - April 17, 2012, 02:31 PM


    Yeah I have it in hardcover, you can get in on Kindle though.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #93 - April 17, 2012, 04:01 PM

    The book (the Tom Holland one I mean) appears to be only available in hardcover, which I hate (so heavy). At least that is what is available on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk.

    Did you get it in hardcover Billy?

    Shouldn't we have a seperate section in this forum about discussing books?

     There is a What Book Are you Reading thread some where.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #94 - April 19, 2012, 10:11 AM


    From History Today:

    ++++++


    Midway through the eighth century a monk living in the monastery of Beth Hale in Iraq recorded the arrival there of an eminent visitor. A ‘Son of Ishmael’ – one of the Arab dignitaries who served at the court of the caliph – had fallen ill. Naturally enough, since Christian holy men were renowned for effecting miracle cures, he had turned to the monks to help him with his convalescence. The Arab stayed ten days in the monastery and in that time he and his hosts argued freely about their respective religions. The monk, of course, portrayed himself as emphatically the winner. Nevertheless it is clear that the Arab had managed to land the odd blow. ‘Is not our faith better than any faith that is on the earth?’ he had demanded to know. ‘And is this not the sign that God loves us and is pleased with our faith – namely, that he has given us dominion over all religions and all peoples?’

    The terms of this argument, it is true, were hardly original to Islam. Back in the early fourth century Eusebius, a Palestinian bishop, had written a biography of Constantine (r. 306-37), the emperor who had stunned the Roman world by converting to Christianity. God had blessed him for bowing his head before Christ with any number of rewards. Eusebius, who combined the talents of a polemicist with a profound streak of hero-worship, had sheltered no doubts on that score: ‘So dear was Constantine to God, and so blessed, so pious and so fortunate in all he undertook that with the greatest facility he obtained authority over more nations than any who had preceded him – and yet retained his power, undisturbed, to the very close of his life.’

    This core equation – that worldly greatness was bestowed by God upon those who pleased Him – was one that reached back to the origins of human belief in the supernatural. Rarely had a society existed that did not see itself as somehow blessed by divine approval. Empires had invariably cast themselves as the favourites of the gods. So it was, some 300 years before Constantine, that Virgil had defined the Romans as a people entrusted by the heavens with a sacred charge: to spare the vanquished and to overthrow the haughty. A potent sentiment and an enduring one. Muslims as well as Christians had proven to be its heirs. The Qu’ran, composed though it was on the margins of the Roman world during the seventh century, bore witness to a conception of imperial mission that was not so different from the pretensions of Virgil’s day: ‘When you encounter the unbelievers, blows to necks it shall be until, once you have routed them, you are to tighten their fetters.’ So Muhammad, serving as the mouthpiece of God, had informed his followers. ‘Thereafter, it is either gracious bestowal of freedom or holding them to ransom, until war has laid down its burdens.’

    Yet by the time of Muhammad (570-632) much had changed from the heyday of the pagan empire and to seismic effect. The revolutionary notion that the universe was governed by a single, all-powerful god had decisively transformed people’s understanding of what the sanction of the heavens might mean. Just as Constantine had discovered in Christ an infinitely more potent patron than Apollo or Sol Invictus had ever been, so those who turned to the pages of the Qu’ran found revealed there a celestial monarch of such limitless and terrifying power that there could certainly be no question of portraying Him – as the Christians did with their god – in human form. Nothing, literally nothing, was beyond Him. ‘If He wishes, O mankind, He can make you disappear and bring others in your stead.’ To a deity capable of such a prodigious feat of annihilation what was the overthrow of an empire or two? Remarkable though it was that the previously despised and marginal Arabs had managed to trample down both Roman and Persian power, no explanation was needed for this, so Muslims came to believe, that did not derive from an even more awesome and heart-stopping miracle: the revelation to the Prophet of the Qu’ran. What surprise that a fire lit far beyond the reach of the ancient superpowers should have spread to illuminate the entire world when that fire was the Word of God?

    So it was, across a vast sweep of Eurasia, stretching from the Atlantic coast to the frontiers of China, that a distinctive understanding of history came to be taken for granted. Whether in Christendom or in the House of Islam, the past was understood as the tracing of patterns upon the centuries by the forefinger of God. The divine had intruded into the sweep of earthly events and everything had changed as a result. The very fabric of time had been rent. Quite how a deity who transcended eternity and space might actually have descended from heaven to earth was, of course, a tricky problem for Christians and Muslims alike to solve and it took bitter and occasionally murderous argument to arrive at anything like a consensus. Only centuries after the birth of Christ did Christians come definitively to accept that their saviour had been both perfect man and perfect God; only centuries after the emigration of Muhammad from Mecca did Muslims come definitively to accept that the Qu’ran was eternal, not created. Such wrangling had been inevitable. Fathoming the purposes of an omnipotent and omniscient deity was no simple matter. As a ninth-century Muslim scholar, in a tone of awed defeatism, confessed: ‘Imagination does not reach Him, and thinking does not comprehend Him.’

    Nevertheless, while Muslims and Christians had faced similar knots their respective attempts to unravel these had set them on radically different courses. The word, so it was claimed in St John’s gospel, had become flesh. The record of Christ’s life, for all that it lay at the heart of the Christian faith, was not itself considered divine, unlike Christ himself. Although Christians believed the Bible to be the word of God, they also knew that it had been mediated through fallible mortals. Not only were there four different accounts of Christ’s life in the Bible, but it contained a whole host of other books, written over a vast expanse of time, demanding to be sifted, compared and weighed against one other. As a result the contextualising of ancient texts came to be second nature to biblical scholars, and not just to believers.

    By the 18th century the Church had ceased to hold the monopoly on subjecting its holy texts to scholarly enquiry. The model of history promoted by Eusebius, which traced in the past the working of the purposes of God, had started to become a thing of mockery. In his massive account of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon subjected some of the most venerated compositions of late antiquity to a pathologist’s scalpel: ‘The only defect of these pleasing compositions is the want of truth and common sense.’ So he dismissed, with his customary solemn sneer, the biographical writings of St Jerome. Yet Gibbon’s tone of irony was to prove a mere presentiment of the far more naked scepticism that, from the 19th century onwards, would increasingly see almost every tenet of the Christian faith subjected to merciless dissection. The shock, to a still devout European public, was profound. When in 1863 a lapsed seminarian by the name of Ernest Renan presumed to publish a biography of Jesus that treated its subject not as a god but as a man like any other it was condemned in horrified terms by one critic as nothing less than a ‘new crucifixion of Our Lord’. The book, Life of Jesus, promptly became a runaway bestseller. Scandalous it may have been, but the European public was not averse to being scandalised.

    Time would demonstrate that there was to be no going back, in the Christian West, on the habit of subjecting to scientific enquiry what had for millennia been regarded as the sacrosanct word of God. Throughout the 19th century, in the hushed and sombre libraries of German theology departments, scholars would crawl over the pages of the Bible, gnawing away at the sacred text like termites. The Pentateuch, they demonstrated, far from having been written by Moses, as had traditionally been taught, seemed instead to have been stitched together from multiple sources. Not only that, but these same sources had almost certainly been written centuries after the events that they purported to describe. Moses, it appeared, had been made into a mouthpiece for laws that he might very well never have pronounced – if he had even existed in the first place. Here was an unravelling of the scriptural tapestry so devastating that even some scholars themselves began to fret over the implications: ‘It is to suspend the beginnings of Hebrew history,’ as one German theologian noted grimly, ‘not upon the grand creations of Moses, but upon airy nothings.’

    Yet the achievements of biblical scholarship, nihilistic though they seemed to many, remained recognisably bred of the marrow of Christian culture. Debate about the authorship of the Pentateuch, after all, reached back at least to the time of Origen, the third century Alexandrian scholar. The methodology that historians in the West nowadays bring to bear on ancient sources owes far more to the traditions of Christian textual analysis than it does to Herodotus or Thucydides. Historicism, like so many intellectual off-shoots of the Enlightenment, is perhaps best considered as a bastard child of Christianity that then set about devouring its parent. Not that it has confined itself to questioning the verities of its own ancestral faith. Other religions, too, and the stories told to explain their origins have likewise been put under its microscope. Sensitivities here, however, are much more raw. If the scepticism of the West can often seem bleak even to those raised in its own traditions, then it can seem downright ravening to others. Offensive though modes of scholarship honed on the Bible may be to Jews or Christians, they can be vastly more so to people from a different religious background. And especially so to Muslims.

    The explanation for this lies in the awe, exceptional even by the standards of other faiths, with which Muslims have always regarded their founding scripture. The nearest analogy in Islam to the role played by Jesus in Christianity is not Muhammad but the Qu’ran. Not merely the word of God, it is itself divine. That being so, its text must inevitably defy all attempts at rational analysis. Even to contemplate such a project is blasphemy. Devout Muslims are no more likely to question the origins of the Qu’ran than devout Christians are to start ransacking Jerusalem for the skeleton of a man with holes in his hands and feet. To treat it like any other text from antiquity, something to be prodded and taken to pieces and explained by the historical context in which it appeared, is to dabble one’s fingers in the very stuff of other people’s souls. Revelation, so it was said, had come upon Muhammad ‘like the ringing of a bell’ and had brought sweat to drip from his forehead. All who then heard him repeat what he had heard knew themselves to be in the authentic presence of the divine. The proof of that lay in the fact that those who had listened to him went on to dismember the two greatest empires in the world. ‘We went to meet them with small abilities and weak forces, and God made us triumph, and gave us possession of their territories.’ Such was what it had meant for the eternal to meet with the diurnal. The Qu’ran was a lightning strike from heaven, owing nothing to what had gone before.

    It is here, in any interpretation of Islam as a divinely-sponsored bolt from the blue, that history must needs meet and merge with faith. Almost 14 centuries on from the lifetime of Muhammad, the conviction that he was truly a prophet of God continues to move and inspire millions upon millions of people around the globe. As a solution to the mystery of what might actually have taken place in the early seventh century Near East, however, it is unlikely to strike those historians raised in the traditions of secular scholarship as entirely satisfactory. By explaining everything, it runs the risk of explaining nothing much at all. Nevertheless it is a measure of how potently an aura of the supernatural has always clung to the Qu’ran and to the story of its genesis that historians have found it so difficult to rationalise its origins. Mecca, so the biographies of the Prophet teach us, was a pagan city, devoid of any Jewish or Christian presence, situated in the midst of a vast, untenanted desert: how else, then, are we to account for the sudden appearance there of a fully fledged monotheism, complete with references to Abraham, Moses and Jesus, if not as an authentic miracle?

    In a sense, the entire history of secular enquiry into the origins of Islam has been an attempt to arrive at a plausible answer to this question. Muslims, understandably sensitive to any hint that their prophet might have been a plagiarist, have always tended to resent the inevitable implications of such a project. And yet, if God is discounted as an informant, it is surely not unreasonable to wonder just how it came to be that so many characters from the Bible feature in the Qu’ran. Perhaps, it has been suggested, Muhammad absorbed Jewish and Christian influences during his business trips to Syria. Or perhaps, despite what the Muslim sources tell us, there were thriving colonies of Jews, or Christians, or both, in Mecca. Or perhaps the Meccan economy was afflicted by a crisis of capitalism, one that saw successful merchants and financiers growing ever richer, even as those on the breadline were left, in the historian Karen’s Armstrong’s words, ‘searching for a new spiritual and political solution to the malaise and disquiet in the city’ and finding it, somehow, in some unspecified manner, in the spirit of the age.

    Yet all these explanations run up against an awkward stumbling block. Back in the 19th century, Ernest Renan – a brilliant Arabist when not putting the cat among Christian pigeons – had contrasted the presumed excellence of the sources for the life of Muhammad with the murk surrounding the founders of other faiths. ‘Islam,’ he declared, ‘was born, not amid the mystery which cradles the origins of other religions, but rather in the full light of history.’ Over the past 40 years, however, this proposition has come under brutal and escalating attack – so much so, indeed, that Islam’s birth, to an increasing number of scholars, now appears shrouded in an almost impenetrable darkness. Although the fact that Muhammad existed is generally accepted by specialists, one Christian source, written just two years after the traditional date of his death, describes a ‘false prophet’ leading the Arabs in an invasion of Palestine, while another, six years later, refers to him by name. Yet the allusions in scattered Christian sources of the seventh century to an enigmatic figure whom they describe variously as ‘the general’, ‘the instructor’, or ‘the king’ of the Arabs merely serves to highlight an astounding lacuna: the complete lack of reference to Muhammad in any early Muslim records. Only in the 690s did a caliph finally get around to inscribing his name on a public monument; only decades after that did the first tentative references to him start to appear in private inscriptions; and only around 800 did biographies finally come to be written of him that Muslims took care to preserve. What might have happened to earlier versions of his life we cannot know for certain. One possibility is hinted at by Ibn Hisham, whose biography of Muhammad is the earliest one to have survived in the form in which we now have it. Much that previous generations had recorded of the Prophet, so this biographer commented sternly, was either bogus, or irrelevant, or sacrilegious. ‘Things which it is disgraceful to discuss; matters which would distress certain people; and such reports as I have been told are not to be accepted as trustworthy – all these things have I omitted.’

    Here, then, is terra firma. What we can know with absolute confidence is that by the early ninth century the precise details of what Muhammad might have said and done some 200 years previously had come to provide, for vast numbers of people, a roadmap that they believed led straight to heaven. God had seized personal control of human events. The world had been set upon a novel course. To doubt this conviction was to risk hellfire. Given this perspective it is scarcely surprising that any ambition to write history or biography as we might understand it should have paled into nothingness compared with the infinitely more pressing obligation to trace in the pattern of the Prophet’s life the wishes and purposes of the almighty. That is why, in leaving the ninth century behind and venturing back into the heaving ocean of uncertainty and conjecture that is the early history of Islam, today’s historians can find it such a struggle to identify reliable charts. Adrift amid the shadowy vastness, what prospect of finding landfall?

    Of course, there is always the Qu’ran and yet the holy text itself, once stripped of all its cladding, all the elaborate scaffolding of commentaries built up around it with such labour and devotion from the ninth century onwards, can seem only to add to the voyager’s sense of being lost upon a darkling ocean. If it did not come from God, then what might its origins have been? Answers to this, over the past few decades, have become increasingly various – nor as yet, among western scholars, is there any sign of a consensus. ‘Qu’ranic studies, as a field of academic research, appears today to be in a state of disarray’: such is the frank admission of Fred Donner, Professor of Near Eastern History at Chicago and the doyen of early Islamic studies. ‘Those of us who study Islam’s origins’, he has confessed, ‘have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qu’ran – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts.’ Its place of origin, its original form, its initial audience – all are mysteries. That being so, it is certainly no longer possible to presume that there is anything remotely self-evident about the birth of Islam. Forty years ago any querying what Muslim tradition taught about its own origins might have been dismissed as mere crankish troublemaking of a kind that no more merited a response from heavyweight experts than did, say, the attempt to ascribe Shakespeare’s plays to Francis Bacon or the Earl of Oxford. All that has changed. Indeed it is hard to think of any other field of history so currently riven by disagreement as is that of early Islam.

    Fortunately, amid all the confusion and obscurity, of one thing at least we can be confident: Islam did not originate in a total vacuum. Of the world into which Muhammad was born, with its rival superpowers and its formidable array of monotheisms, we are most decidedly not ignorant. To compare the would-be universal dominions of Persia and Rome with the empire that the caliphate became, or to trace echoes of Jewish and Christian writings in the Qu’ran, is to recognise that Islam, far from spelling the end of what had gone before, seems in many ways to have been its culmination. ‘What is the reason that God has delivered you into our hands?’ So the convalescing ‘Son of Ishmael’ demanded of the monk of Beth Hale. The question was one that Christians in turn, in the centuries before Muhammad, had demanded of Jews and pagans. The story of how Islam came to define itself and to invent a model of the past that would sanction such a definition, is only part of a much broader story: one that is ultimately about how Jews, Christians and Muslims all came by their understanding of their respective religions. Whether any of them truly derived from the intervention within human history of a god is not for the historian to say. But look at the brilliance and inventiveness of the civilisations into which they were born and it is certainly possible to recognise in all of them the authentic stamp of mortal agency.

    The vision of God to which both rabbis and bishops subscribed and that Muhammad’s followers inherited did not emerge from nowhere. The monotheisms that became state religions from the Atlantic to central Asia had ancient, unexpected, roots. To trace them is to cast a searchlight across the entire civilisation of antiquity.

    Tom Holland is the author of In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World (Little, Brown, 2012).


    http://www.historytoday.com/tom-holland/islams-origins-where-mystery-meets-history


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #95 - April 19, 2012, 11:28 AM

    Quote
    The nearest analogy in Islam to the role played by Jesus in Christianity is not Muhammad but the Qu’ran. Not merely the word of God, it is itself divine. That being so, its text must inevitably defy all attempts at rational analysis. Even to contemplate such a project is blasphemy


    Do people agree with that?

    Is this why damaging korans is so reacted about?

    Is this why the saudis fund madrassahs?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #96 - April 19, 2012, 02:26 PM


    From the History Today piece:

    "Although the fact that Muhammad existed is generally accepted by specialists, one Christian source, written just two years after the traditional date of his death, describes a ‘false prophet’ leading the Arabs in an invasion of Palestine, while another, six years later, refers to him by name. Yet the allusions in scattered Christian sources of the seventh century to an enigmatic figure whom they describe variously as ‘the general’, ‘the instructor’, or ‘the king’ of the Arabs merely serves to highlight an astounding lacuna: the complete lack of reference to Muhammad in any early Muslim records."

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #97 - April 19, 2012, 02:32 PM

    I do not think of that as particularly astonishing. The Arabs were far too busy conquering the Middle East to write about Muhammad. Besides the Arabs were traditionally an oral, not literary people. So we should hardly be surprised that there is little written about him early on. The first generation of Muslim leaders actually knew him personally so why would they need to write about him?

    Once they settled down in their new empire and stopped conquering new territories, they did write about him in abundance.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #98 - April 19, 2012, 02:48 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5O_NUhrK0&feature=related

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #99 - April 19, 2012, 03:23 PM

    I do not think of that as particularly astonishing. The Arabs were far too busy conquering the Middle East to write about Muhammad. Besides the Arabs were traditionally an oral, not literary people. So we should hardly be surprised that there is little written about him early on. The first generation of Muslim leaders actually knew him personally so why would they need to write about him?

    Once they settled down in their new empire and stopped conquering new territories, they did write about him in abundance.


    That kind of misses the point - its not until two hundred years later that Muhammad is constructed in writing at a moment in which a divine narrative is retrospectively created in accordance with a contemporary need. The lack of mentioning of him can't be ascribed merely to being busy as in other contexts there are discrepancies - his being mentioned or alluded to in non Muslim sources after his presumed death date, and the normal modes of marking a figure of this kind (inscriptions etc) being late.

    Of course this is all in the context of the claims made for him  - as the ultimate, world changing prophet of God.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #100 - April 19, 2012, 04:35 PM

    That kind of misses the point - its not until two hundred years later that Muhammad is constructed in writing at a moment in which a divine narrative is retrospectively created in accordance with a contemporary need.


    I understand your point, I think....

    Are you saying that a great deal of the life of Muhammad is likely to have been fabricated or exaggerated? Or are you saying that the entire character of Muhammad is totally made up? If it is the former then I would probably agree with you to a certain extent. Just like any other historical figure who united a people and formed a new nation, there will always be a certain ammount of myth associated with his story. But if it is the latter, that he is totally made up. I find that to be bordering on a conspiracy theory.

    Afterall, somebody had to have united the various Arab tribes into a single political entity right? And that somebody must have had a name, he must have been a charismatic and intelligent leader.

    The story of the life of Muhammad as described in Ibn Ishaq is incredibly rich in detail, with so many characters and so many complicated events, most of which do not defy logic or rationality (there are very few stories of miracles or supernatural abilities) that there is really no reason to doubt that any of it could have happened. The expression "truth is stranger than fiction" rings true here I think as it would be incredibly difficult to make up such an elaborate story. If the story had been made up then you would expect it to be simpler and with less conflict, and less disbelief and negative reactions from the Pagan Arabs.

    What makes the story of Jesus seem unreal is not the fact that there are no contemporary, eye-witness accounts of his life, but the fact that he is reported to have done miraculous things like walk on water, turn water into wine, cure leprosy, etc. AND there are no eye-witness accounts of these miracles.

    The vast majority of history was not written by eye-witnesses, we do not cast massive doubt on Plutarch's accounts of Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar just because he was not an eye-witness.

    his being mentioned or alluded to in non Muslim sources after his presumed death date,


    I do not find this to be that astonishing either.

    Firstly Muhammad was alive when the opening engagements occured between the Arabs and the Byzantines:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabuk
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah

    Now remember we are talking about a totally foreign enemy here speaking a totally alien language. I cannot imagine that many of the Byzantines spoke Arabic, ok they did have Ghassanid allies so there will have been some translators. But it is very unlikely that they were aware of the full details of the inner workings of these invaders armies. The fact that some "false prophet" had died far away in Mecca in 632 AD was probably of little concern when they were actually being attacked by Arab armies. Besides it is probably not something that the Arab invaders would have been advertising to their opponents, that their Messiah had already died, as that would have been a huge moral victory for their opponents. Cetainly morale played a massive role in these kinds of religious conflicts.

    and the normal modes of marking a figure of this kind (inscriptions etc) being late.


    I do not know enough about this to comment much. But the real question to ask is whether or not there are a lot of religious inscriptions made by the Arabs at all in this early period. I.e. are there a bunch of religious inscriptions that specifically do not mention Muhammad? Remember that they are invading a foriegn land where very few of the inhabitants would have been able to speak Arabic, let alone read it, so what would be the point of making inscriptions that none of the local people could read?

    Then again I have not actually read the book so I only have this summary, not the details of the facts. I am looking forward to getting a copy.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #101 - April 19, 2012, 05:15 PM

    Quote
    Are you saying that a great deal of the life of Muhammad is likely to have been fabricated or exaggerated?


    I would say yes definitely

    Quote
    Or are you saying that the entire character of Muhammad is totally made up?


    I would argue almost certainly.  Mohammed means praised and the first use of that word are in relation to Christ - praising Christ!

    And on battles, it looks like Muslim historians have taken actual battles, moved their locations and said they were the winners!


    Have you seen Ibn Warraq?

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/Ibn_Warraq/A_Conference_On_The_Early_History_Of_Islam_And_The_Koran/

    Quote
    Professor Johannes Thomas of the University of Paderborn[2] pointed out that our sources for the conquest of Spain by Muslims are quite late and unreliable. There are no Arabic inscriptions dating back to the Eighth Century and only six dating back to the Ninth. The earliest description of the conquest of North Africa and Spain written in Arabic was written by Ibn Abd al-Hakam, an Egyptian who had never been in Spain and who is said to have written the text in the middle of the 9th Century. As the Dutch Arabist Rienhard Dozy said this account has no more historical value than the fairy tales in "The Book of the Thousand Nights and One Night". But as Professor Thomas pointed out, al-Hakam is not an exception, all other Arabian reports and compilations give us the same fairy tales.

    Leaning on the methodology established by Albrecht Noth, Thomas tries to sort out what really happened between the Eighth and Eleventh Century in Spain.

    Professor Helmut Waldmann of TŸbingen gave a brief history of Zurvanism -a branch of Zoroastrianism that had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). In the second part of his talk, Waldmann gave a sketch of the influence of Zurvanism on Islam.
    ...


    The links to Zarathustra are incontrovertible.  Islam, I think, is actually a Zoroastrian sect.  It is not original, it did not appear from nowhere.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #102 - April 19, 2012, 05:24 PM



    The story of the life of Muhammad as described in Ibn Ishaq is incredibly rich in detail, with so many characters and so many complicated events, most of which do not defy logic or rationality (there are very few stories of miracles or supernatural abilities) that there is really no reason to doubt that any of it could have happened.


    Seriously, buy the book. Ibn Ishaq is addressed in it. It answers your questions. Its a superb, masterful work.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #103 - April 19, 2012, 05:25 PM




    In the New Statesman, Tom Holland discusses his book with Nabeelah Jaffer, 'a journalist who specialises in Islamic culture and feminism'


    ++++++

    Birth of a religion


    Tom Holland’s history In the Shadow of the Sword casts doubt on the origins of the Quran. In an NS special debate, Nabeelah Jaffer begs to differ.


    How much do we know about the birth of Islam? Much less than we think, argues the popular historian Tom Holland in his new book, In the Shadow of the Sword.

    In Holland’s opinion, the Quran was written long after the death of Muhammad, Mecca is not necessarily the birthplace of the Prophet and modern Muslims’ reverence for their holy writings stops them from confronting the texts’ dubious historical origins.

    Bryan Appleyard has described the conclusion of In the Shadow of the Sword as “seismic”; he wrote in the Sunday Times that “Holland’s book leaves almost no aspect of the traditional story of Islam intact”. Another reviewer likened its treatment of the Quran to Dan Brown’s Christianity-as-conspiracy in The Da Vinci Code, “though with a little more class”.

    The religion that emerged as Islam by the 8th century was, Holland would argue, just one manifestation of the furthest-reaching moral and ethical metamorphosis in history. Other expressions of the phenomenon were what we now call Judaism and Christianity – faiths that he suggests had taken on something like the form they wear today by the time of Muhammad, but similarly were once swirls of beliefs and doctrines.

    Holland’s tale of how Islam came to define itself and its past is only one part of a much broader panorama: one that is ultimately about how Jews, Christians and Muslims all came by their understanding of religion. Does he present a bold new account that undermines Islam’s grip on its own past, or, as I argue, spin out a rich but speculative tale of the possible birth of three religions as novel tools to grapple with an era of geopolitical conflict and rivalry?



    Nabeelah Jaffer Your chapters on the ambi­guity of early Christianity and Judaism have slipped under the radar amid the general buzz that you “rubbish” Islam and the expectant wait for some sort of backlash. How doyou feel about the assumption that Muslims are more likely to respond to challenging ideas with violent anger than followers of other religions? And do you think there will be a few far-right attempts to appropriate your ideas?

    Tom Holland I think it is one measure of theeffect of the [Salman] Rushdie affair in this country that it is now widely taken for granted that writing anything about Islam will make angry men with beards – and probably hooks as well! – come to kill you. Whenever I have told people what the book was about, the word “fatwa” has invariably surfaced.

    That being so, it was probably inevitable that the most eye-catching chapters in the book would be the ones about Islam. But why should any Muslim be offended by what I have to say? Mine is a non-believer’s attempt to explain a puzzle that Muslims, if they have faith, would deny was a puzzle at all. As an adult, I struggle to square my absolute conviction that Abraham and Moses never existed with the occasional flaring of a residual Christian faith. I hope that the resulting tension has been good for the book. Yes, it is sceptical; but no, it is never contemptuous of the longing of people to know God.

    NJ I agree. I think both upset Muslims and pleased “Islamophobes” perceive in revisionism a threat to the religious narrative where none exists. The questions that you set out to answer only appear when you take a divine presence out of the equation.

    You wrestle, for example, with the “bewilderingly eclectic array of sources” in the Quran, Abrahamic and otherwise. A Muslim would take this as proof of divine input and a revelation which encompasses Judaism and Christianity as part of a prophetic tradition. As a non-Muslim, you rule out this answer and search for an alternative scenario. Presenting a potential secular alternative to the “God” story doesn’t negate the narrative upheld by believers. So, turning to your secular alternative, how does it differ from traditional accounts?

    TH All three religions, it seems to me, emerged out of the same melting pot – and yet all three have constructed backstories that aim to occlude the fact. In the first three centuries after Christ, Jews and Christians may have had a consciousness of themselves as peoples with distinct identities, but they remained unclear where precisely the border between them lay.

    There were Jews who believed that Jesus had been the Messiah and there were Christians who followed the Jewish law – and it took an unacknowledged alliance between bishops and rabbis, in the centuries after the emperor Constantine, to ensure that what had previously been an open frontier became a no-man’s land. Similarly, a lot of Muslim historiography seems to me to have been composed with the aim of spiking the possibility that either the Quran or the sunna [laws] might conceivably have owed anything to infidel precedent.

    NJ Of course, one of the first things you learn as a historian is to interrogate early chronicles for motive using context, whether geopolitical, religious or otherwise. But it is equally dangerous to lean towards the hypersceptic idea that texts cannot be relied upon except to tell us about their writers, meaning the document-free gaps in the past must always consist of near-impregnable darkness.

    You don’t go quite that far in your book, but you do apply something of this very sceptical view to early Islamic sources which first appeared in the 200 years after the Prophet’s death as written accounts of oral testimony. You suggest, for example, that hadiths [sayings of Muhammad] targeting the rich were concocted to unsettle the rotten imperial elite. Your argument that “the dry rot of fabrication . . . was endemic throughout the sunna” is much more radical than the traditionalist, more common academic approach, which recognises the importance of testing for fabrication, but values the hadith as a body of secondary sources. I’d disagree that uncovering fabricated elements in these early sources undermines everything that they portray as authentic.

    TH I think there’s a particular problem with the sources for early Islam. Some of the sayings attributed to Muhammad must surely be authentic – but even if we could identify them, their value as a source for his life would still not be greatly enhanced as a result.

    Context, for the historian, is all – and no Muslim scholar or lawyer who cited the Prophet ever had the slightest interest in establishing what the original context of his sayings might actually have been. To quote him was to take for granted that the advice he had to give was timeless and universal. That Muslims in the heyday of the Caliphate were living under circumstances unimaginable to Muhammad never crossed their minds.

    The real problem for the historian is that we lack what, for instance, [the 1st-century Roman-Jewish historian] Josephus gives us for the background to the life of Christ – a control. The consequence is that we can only hope to arrive at a sense of what might have happened in the early years of the Arab conquests by looking at the much later Muslim source material in the light of the late-antique world.

    NJ In which case, no explanation of the origins of Islam is ever going to strike the mould for an authentic secular narrative. You rightly point out in your introduction the provisional nature of your own retelling of early Islam: “on a whole range of issues . . . there can only ever be speculation”. While you use Christian and Jewish traces in the Quran to suggest their influence on Muhammad, direct evidence remains elusive.

    There’s a wonderful analogy in the book about it being similar to noticing that the eastern and western coasts of the Atlantic Ocean match like a jigsaw puzzle. There seems to be a link, but without clues as to how the two came together, it’s impossible to know for certain how to explain the gap. Historians are just replacing one take on an uncertain past with another.

    TH The hypothesis I give in the book as to how and why Islam might have emerged is only that – a hypothesis. Patricia Crone, one of the most brilliant and innovative historians of early Islam, once memorably described the Muslim historical tradition as “a monument to the destruction rather than the preservation of the past”. That being so, it is hardly surprising that there should be such a breathtaking range of opinion, ranging from devout Muslims, who accept the tradition in its entirety, to radical sceptics who doubt that Muhammad so much as existed.

    My own take is that the evolution of Islam can only really be made sense of in the light of the civilisations and religions of late antiquity. Partly, that is because it genuinely seems to me the best way to try to understand what might have happened in the 7th century; but I am sure it also reflects a subliminal desire on my part, in love with antiquity as I am, to feel that Islam, like Christianity, was bred of the ancient world.

    NJ This debate has, until now, been limited to specialists, for the good reason that it requires a vast amount of study and a good knowledge of Arabic, at least, in order to draw authoritative conclusions from the available sources. Revisionists are few, and those such as Patricia Crone and Michael Cook who argue that Islam was born after the burgeoning of the Caliphate and the Arab conquests do so with the authority of their close understanding of the period, albeit little concrete evidence.

    While you obviously draw on the work of such historians and are enthusiastic about the period, is it fair to present a narrative not grounded in direct engagement with the available sources?

    TH In writing this book, I am standing on the shoulders of giants – or, to mix metaphors, rushing in where angels fear to tread. My justification is that if a generalist is not prepared to attempt it, then no one will. Perhaps, somewhere, there is a scholar with Latin, Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic and Coptic, doctorates in Talmudic studies, patristics, Christian theology and Quranic studies and an ability to write accessibly for the general public – but if so, he or she is yet to write the book on the subject that I strongly felt merited being written.

    Even the greatest historian of the decline and fall of the Roman empire, Edward Gibbon, had to profess his “ignorance of the Oriental tongues, and . . . gratitude to the learned interpreters”. Where I had the advantage, perhaps, was in having a brilliant research assistant, a native Arabic speaker with a specialisation in Syriac, and the incredible generosity of a wide range of scholars.

    NJ Locating religious construction in the centuries that followed the death of Muhammad involves saying some particularly challenging things about the Quran and the Prophet himself. For example, you accept that the Quran seems to date from around Muhammad’s time, and certainly recent carbon-dating research suggests an early-7th-century date for indicative Quranic fragments.

    When the German Quranic scholar Gerd Puin was allowed to examine the ancient manuscripts recently discovered in Sana’a, Yemen, he found possible evidence of minor changes to verse order and spelling, but uncovered no hint of deliberate fabrication. In the light of all this, proposing that figures such as the 7th-century caliph Abd al-Malik, whom you suggest put the Quran through an “editing process”, and the historian Ibn Hisham constructed a retrospective religion centred on a man named Muhammad, whom they situated in Mecca, seems a little extreme. There are direct mentions of Muhammad in the Quran itself, among dozens of other allusions to his life.

    TH The problem for any non-Muslim trying to explain the origins of Islam is what to make of the Quran. It seems to me clearly to derive, in the form we have it, from the lifetime of Muhammad – which makes it, a few other brief and enigmatic documents aside, our only primary source for his career.

    The problem is, I cannot possibly accept what Muslims take for granted: that it originates from God. And yet Mecca, so the biographies of the Prophet teach us, was an inveterately pagan city devoid of any large-scale Jewish or Christian presence, situated in the midst of a vast, untenanted desert. How else, then, are we to account for the sudden appearance there of a fully fledged monotheism, complete with references to Abraham, Moses and Jesus, if not as a miracle? You can only answer that question by asking yourself whether Muslims, at some point in the evolution of Islam, might not have situated the origins of the Quran deep in a desert for the same reason that Christians cast the mother of Christ as a virgin. In both cases, what is presumed to be an intrusion of the divine into the dimension of the mortal is being certified as an authentic, bona fide act of God.

    NJ I don’t argue that religious practices shouldn’t be understood as firmly within their political and cultural contexts as possible. But religions are necessarily a human phenomenon in their practice, however divine we believe their inspiration and aspiration to be. “Monotheistic revolution” is a misnomer: the evolution of faith didn’t end with the melting pot of Byzantine.

    TH I think in the early history of what emerges as rabbinical Judaism, of Christianity and of Islam, you see a near-identical process: the gradual fashioning, out of a great swirl of often inchoate rituals, convictions and scriptures, of a distinct religion that is coherent, in terms of both doctrine and institutions. Watchtowers and barriers go up, the aim being to keep the faithful inside set limits and to keep non-believers out. Histories are then written which make it seem as though the religion has always existed in the form that it now possesses, right from the very beginning – that Moses was a rabbi, that Jesus would have signed up to the Nicaean Creed, that Muhammad was truly the fountainhead of the sunna.

    The concrete, initially so soft and malleable, by now has set. This does not mean, of course, that the various religions do not continue to evolve – but they do so within parameters that by now are irrevocably rigid, and exclude contributions from peoples of other faiths. It is in that sense, I would argue, that Jews, Christians and Muslims all today worship different gods.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2012/04/birth-religion

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #104 - April 19, 2012, 06:23 PM

     Islam, I think, is actually a Zoroastrian sect.  It is not original, it did not appear from nowhere.


    I wouldn't describe it as a Zoroastrian sect. There is certainly Zoroastrian influence and antecedent and echoes. Its more of a general amalgam with varying spheres and degrees of influence (Judaism & Christianity especially influential, paganism, Zoroastrianism etc)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #105 - April 19, 2012, 06:25 PM



    Note the Muslim journalists attempt to implicate the work into 'far right' appropriation and the 'Islamophobia' brigade with slightly snide leading questions.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #106 - April 19, 2012, 07:31 PM

    Quote
    TH I think in the early history of what emerges as rabbinical Judaism, of Christianity and of Islam, you see a near-identical process: the gradual fashioning, out of a great swirl of often inchoate rituals, convictions and scriptures, of a distinct religion that is coherent, in terms of both doctrine and institutions. Watchtowers and barriers go up, the aim being to keep the faithful inside set limits and to keep non-believers out. Histories are then written which make it seem as though the religion has always existed in the form that it now possesses, right from the very beginning – that Moses was a rabbi, that Jesus would have signed up to the Nicaean Creed, that Muhammad was truly the fountainhead of the sunna.

    The concrete, initially so soft and malleable, by now has set. This does not mean, of course, that the various religions do not continue to evolve – but they do so within parameters that by now are irrevocably rigid, and exclude contributions from peoples of other faiths. It is in that sense, I would argue, that Jews, Christians and Muslims all today worship different gods.


    It is strange how most people on this planet are stuck in these concrete overshoes of monotheism, maybe drowned in it!

    How do we recover personal gods, like children with our own individual imaginary friends - I might like to worship our Dyson for example, or chocolate...

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #107 - April 22, 2012, 11:45 PM

    Mohammed means praised and the first use of that word are in relation to Christ - praising Christ!


    I have just finished reading most of this new book "The Hidden Origins of Islam".

    And these exact arguments that you are making here are also made by some of the contributors to this book.

    What is most striking about the evidence presented in the book is that there is not a single inscription, coin, or any piece of physical evidence that references any of the Rashidun Caliphs by name in existence. I.e. none of the four Rashidun Caliphs ever had anything made with their name on, or at least nothing has yet been found with their names. Arab coins have been found from the period of the Rashidun Caliphs that were minted in Damascus, but they have both the cross and the seal of the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius on them. It is as if the Rashidun Caliphs were pretending to be Christian rulers swearing allegiance to the Byzantine Emperor. But the other thing that these coins also have is the letter "Μ" from the Greek alphabet. Does this "M" refer to Muhammad? The authors do not mention what it stands for.

    The first Caliph that we have actual physical evidence for is Muawiyah I, the first Umayyad Caliph. For him there are inscriptions and coins. What is curious about both his inscriptions and coins is that he focuses on using Christian symbology (i.e. crosses) and the Greek language. Also in North Africa the coins from this period say things like “There is only one God, blah-blah-blah” in Latin, but nothing concrete referring specifically to Islam or Muhammad.

    During the reign of Abd al-Malik, we first see the whole word Muhammad on both coins and inscriptions. They say:

    Quote
    محمد رسول الله


    This could mean either “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah” or “praised is the apostle of Allah”. Seeing as 'Muhammad' also means praised. Some of the authors of this book have jumped to the conclusion that not only is it the later, but also in these cases the apostle in question is actually Jesus Christ. However this seems to be quite a stretch on their part. They present tones of evidence of both coins and inscriptions, but none of them specifically identify the name “Jesus” as the apostle being referred to. All of them have this cryptic 3 word message that could easily be interpreted as meaning Jesus, Muhammad, or even Moses.

    They conclude that throughout both the Rashidun and Umayyad periods there is no clear distinction that Jesus and Muhammad are different individuals and it is only in the period of the Abbasids that Islam and “Muhammad” as an individual are finally formalized.

    I find this very hard to believe, especially seeing as other chapters in the same book (each chapter is written by a different author) present obvious evidence from a Christian source that do refer to Muhammad as a writer of a number of books and stories about a cow and a she-camel. The source is John of Damascus, who worked in the administration of Abd-Al Malik circa 700 AD. So if Abd Al-Malik’s “Muhammad” coins and inscriptions really meant “praised” and was referring to Jesus, how could John of Damascus have written that “Muhammad” was a guy that had written about a she-camel and a cow at about the same time? It seems as though the various contributors to this book are contradicting each other entirely.

    There are other Christian sources as early as 636 AD that refer to the “Arabs of Muhammad” aswell.

    The book definitely highlights some interesting points about how this period is still really in the shadows, and for me it made me think that at this time the boundary between “Christian” and “Muslim” was somewhat blurred. It seems like Muawiyah I was definitely trying to make himself seem more of a Christian than a Muslim. And the coins from the so-called “Rashidun” period seem to suggest that the Arab rulers (not mentioned by name) were not only portraying Christian symbols but even putting the seal of the Byzantine Emperor on their coins. But for them to conclude that Muhammad was Jesus when the evidence clearly points to the opposite, that Muhammad was another prophet or at least an influential religious writer, is mind-bogglying.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #108 - April 24, 2012, 03:04 PM


    The book really lifts off in the final chapters - almost finished chapter 6 now and its great, great stuff.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #109 - April 24, 2012, 05:31 PM

    Only up to the invention of heresy!  And the wonderful way everybody creates a series of links back to someone important to show their work is authentic and ancient!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #110 - April 24, 2012, 05:41 PM

    Quote
    Fragment on the Arab Conquests are fragmentary notes that were written around the year 636 AD on the front blank pages of a sixth-century Syriac Christian Gospel manuscript which depict events from the early seventh century conflict between the Byzantines and what the Fragments call "the Arabs of Muhammad" and particularly of the battle of Yarmouk. [1]


    I would be very suspicious about that dating, considering what gospels and psalms were written on and how often they were reused!  Anyone could have scribbled that note at any time.

    Quote
    Welcome. The subject of this website is a manuscript of extraordinary importance to the history of science, the Archimedes Palimpsest. This thirteenth century prayer book contains erased texts that were written several centuries earlier still. These erased texts include two treatises by Archimedes that can be found nowhere else, The Method and Stomachion.


    http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/

    and yes I was referencing Ibn Warraq, who Holland used in his book.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/Ibn_Warraq/A_Conference_On_The_Early_History_Of_Islam_And_The_Koran/

    Quote
    Where Dr. Markus Gross discussed the Buddhist influence on Islam, Professor Kropp explained the Ethiopian elements in the Koran. Independent scholar, traveller, and numismatist Volker Popp argued that Islamic history as recounted by Islamic historians has a Biblical structure –the first four caliphs are clearly modelled on Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

    The Muslim historians transformed historical facts to fit a Biblical pattern. Popp also developed a fascinating thesis that Islamic historians had a propensity to turn nomen (gentile) (name of the gens or clan) into patronyms; a patronym being a component of a personal name based on the name of one's father. Thus Islamic historians had a tendency to take, for instance, Iranian names on inscriptions and turn them into Arabic-sounding names. Having turned Iranians into Arabs, the next step was to turn historical events connected with the original Iranians which had nothing to do with Islamic history into Islamic history.

    For example, Islamic history knows various so called Civil Wars. One of them was between Abd-al-Malik, his governor al-Hajjaj and the rival caliph in Mecca by the name of Abdallah Zubair. The evidence of inscriptions tells us that the name Zubayr is a misreading. The correct reading is ZNBYL. This was made into ZUBYL by the Arab historians. From ZUBYL they derived the name Zubair, which has no Semitic root.

    The real story is a fight between Abd al-Malik at Merv and the King of Kabulistan, who held the title ZNBYL.

    This took place between 60 and 75 Arab era in the East of the former Sassanian domains. The historians transferred this feud to Mecca and Jerusalem and then embedded the whole into the structure of a well known story from the Old Testament, the secession of Omri and his building the Temple of Samaria.


    Are there other sources for this battle?  Did it actually involve arabs?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #111 - April 24, 2012, 06:16 PM


    Excellence on every page - that's how I'd sum up this book.

    Just been reading stuff in chapter 6 about the Mushrikun in the Quran.

    +++++++++++

    "Always, however, those who are being variously scorned, chided and refuted by the Prophet lurk off-stage - their voices unheard, their beliefs unaired. Mushrikun, they are called - 'those who are guilty of shirk'. Such an offence - the belief that supernatural beings might be partnered with God as fit objects of worship - would end up enshrined by Islam as the most unforgivable of sins, of course; and so perhaps it is no surprise that the presumption should have grown up among Muslim scholars that the Mushrikun had been rank idolators and pagans, worshippers of rock and stone. This, however, is not at all what the Quran itself implies. Indeed, based purely on the evidence contained in the holy text, the Mushrikun seem to have shared a whole range of beliefs with Jews and Christians - not to mention the Prophet himself. That the world was created by a single god: that this god would listen to those who approached him, whether through prayer or pilgramage; that he ruled as lord of the angels: all this, it is clear enough, was common ground between Muhammad and his opponents. So too was familiarity with characters from the Bible - something taken wholly for granted in the Quran. Where the Mushrikun erred, however, according to the Prophet, was in their adherence to a truly shocking notion: that God had fathered the angels, and would listen to any prayers that might be raised to Him through their agency. Even worse, in a world where no man ever doubted his superiority over women, the Mushrikun actually presumed 'to turn the angels, servants of the All-Merciful, into females'!

    Whether this was actually what the Mushrikun had done is, of course, a rather different matter. 'They follow nothing, those who worship partners apart from God - they follow nothing but conjecture; they utter nothing but lies.' Hardly, it is fair to say, the most nuanced cataloguing of what the Mushrikun might actually have believed. The Prophet was clearly no encyclopedist: he lacked the insatiable passion of an Epiphanius for catalguing the precise details of his opponents follies. Whoever or whatever the Mushrikun may have been, it is impossible to glimpse them save through a swirling fog-bank of polemic. Certainly, there is nothing in the mere fact of their existence that helps us to pinpoint when they flourished'."


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #112 - April 26, 2012, 12:27 PM

    The Divine Women series discusses Paul and his end time beliefs and his very radical "In Christ...there is neither male nor female..

    It sounds like those ideas had survived a few hundred years..

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #113 - April 26, 2012, 09:02 PM


    I'm savouring every page now. Chapter 6 he talks about such enlivening things. You've got to get into it, guys.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #114 - May 03, 2012, 12:52 PM



    The always reliable and predictable Zia Sardar attempts a hatchet job.



    ++++++++


    In the Shadow of the Sword: the Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World

    Tom Holland

    Little, Brown, 523pp, £25

    Tom Holland writes epic texts on epic ancient history. After dealing with the early Romans in Rubicon and the struggles between Persia and Greece in Persian Fire, he moves on to the origins of Islam. Like his earlier books, In the Shadow of the Sword abridges centuries of history into a grand, riveting narrative. A string of empires – from the Abbasid to the Sasanian – are examined, wars and battles are recounted with relish and “catastrophic eruptions” are described in loving detail. All of which provides a vivid portrait of the Middle East during the early Middle Ages.

    Ostensibly, Holland is concerned with the role of God and religion in shaping the history of the region. But the real aim of the book is to examine the validity of “Muslim sources” and to assess the extent of Muslim scholarship down the centuries. Holland raises a number of legitimate questions. What do we know about Muhammad? Are the sayings attributed to him reliable? What is the origin of the Quran? How much of the history produced by Muslims can we trust?
     
    His answer is to present a revisionist history based almost exclusively on the work of a largely discredited group of orientalists. In the process, he pours scorn on Muslim scholarship, which is declared unsound, if not totally worthless, and lays into classical Muslim biographers and historians.
    Innocent readers will no doubt conclude that Muslims know nothing about Muhammad or the Quran. Apparently, our historians knew little about objectivity or criticism, which is the sole preserve of Holland and his orien­talist friends!
     
    Holland points out that there is a serious problem with the sayings and reported actions, or Hadith, of Muhammad. A vast number were fabricated for political or sectarian reasons. This, however, is hardly news. Muslim scholars knew from the beginning that this was the case and tried to develop a critical methodology to deal with manufactured Hadith.
     
    Admittedly, the collection and criticism of these sayings, monumental though they were, were a human effort and so could never be free from error. But does this mean that we should ditch the vast corpus of Hadith in its entirety and that Muslim scholars, who knew more about criticism than Holland, preserved nothing meaningful or sensible?
     
    Holland makes similar proclamations about the first biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq’s The Life of Muhammad, written about a century after his death. In his description of the battle of Badr, a decisive moment in Islamic history, Ibn Ishaq says that the battle was won with the help of God and his angels. Holland pounces on this to argue that Ibn Ishaq cannot be regarded as objective and nothing that he says can be trusted. Since much of what we know about Muhammad is based on Ibn Ishaq’s work, the conclusion that follows is that we know next to nothing about Muhammad.
     
    So did Muhammad actually exist? Or is he a figment of the Muslim imagination? Thankfully, Holland is not foolish enough to deny his existence. But he has a problem: “the total absence of any early Muslim reference to Muh­ammad”. His name on public monuments only appears in 690, around 58 years after his death. This is enough to cast doubt.
     
    Perhaps Holland should have considered that Muhammad did not want to be depicted on monuments and that Muslims were not keen on depicting their Prophet. This is why there are no Muslim monuments anywhere in the world depicting him.
     
    However, we are told later, there is strong evidence of his existence from his own time: the “constitution of Medina”, a treaty between Muhammad and the Muslim and Jewish tribes of Medina, which has survived as “a single lump of magma sufficiently calcified to have stood proof against all erosion” and is “accepted even by the most suspicious of scholars”. So what’s the argument?
     
    What can we say about Holland’s sources? He is besotted by his guru, the Danish orientalist Patricia Crone. It has to be said that the very mention of her name generates hysterical laugh­ter in some scholarly circles. With many Muslim intellectuals, her reputation is similar to that enjoyed by the disgraced historian David Irving in western academia. Yet Holland cites her and her colleagues and fellow travellers, such as Michael Cook and G R Hawting, copiously.
     
    Thus we have Holland’s laughable treatment of the Quran. If it wasn’t revealed in Syria, as Crone once absurdly suggested, perhaps it was Palestine. Mecca was not on any trade routes, so maybe it was portrayed as a “booming town” by Muslim historians to glorify the city of Muhammad’s birth. Holland is not concerned with how this revisionist history, the work of “suspicious scholars”, has been thoroughly demolished and debunked by both orientalist and Muslim scholars.
     
    Although some work critical of the revisionist school is cited in the bibliography – notably Mustafa al-Azami’s brilliant defence of Hadith and the history of the Quran – it is clear that Holland has either not read them or has chosen to ignore them completely.
     
    I have great respect for Holland and for his work. But the title of In the Shadow of the Sword, which contrasts so sharply with the neutral titles of his earlier books, conjures up all the demons of colonial orientalism. It is revisionist ideology masquerading as popular history. When you stop being dazzled by the scope and style of the book, you realise that most of Holland’s arguments crumble like dust at the merest hint of scrutiny.
     
    There is no doubt that Muslims need to re-examine the historical and social construction of their faith, to be much more critical of Hadith, and more objective and less romantic about their past. But this task does not require us to sweep aside centuries of deep scholar­-ship. We should and do criticise Plato and Aristotle but we don’t dismiss them out of hand. Just as Greece cannot be conceived without its philosophers, so Islamic history has no meaning without the efforts of Ibn Hashim and Hadith scholars such as Muhammad al-Bukhari. In the end, there are no other sources; and even Holland has to rely on the scholars he is trying to rubbish.
     
    I find Holland’s total dismissal of Muslim scholarship arrogant (which I know he is not), insulting (which I know he does not mean to be) and based on spurious scholarship (though his scholarship is usually sound). His message is tailor-made for a time when Isla­mophobia is a global fashion, and everything that is labelled “Islamic” or “Muslim” is looked upon with suspicion. Not surprisingly, this book has already been feted in certain right-wing circles.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/04/review-shadow-sword-tom-holland


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #115 - May 03, 2012, 12:53 PM


    As Kenan Malik points out:

    Zia Sardar thinks Tom Holland an 'orientalist': But then he thought reading The Satanic Verses was like being 'raped'.

    Zia Sardar also compared The Satanic Verses' 'annihilation of [Muslim] cultural identity' to 'physical genocide'

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #116 - May 03, 2012, 11:02 PM

    Hey Billy.

    This Tom Holland book finally arrived in the mail. It is massive! Is it worthwhile to read every chapter in order? Or can I just skip forward to part III (the bit about Islam)?
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #117 - May 03, 2012, 11:15 PM

    As Kenan Malik points out:

    Zia Sardar thinks Tom Holland an 'orientalist': But then he thought reading The Satanic Verses was like being 'raped'.

    Zia Sardar also compared The Satanic Verses' 'annihilation of [Muslim] cultural identity' to 'physical genocide'


     I'm not sure if Zia Sardar compared the Satanic Verses to Orientalist literature but there were plenty who marked the Satanic Verses as the continuation of a long strain of Orientalist 'hate' literature.  I found it ironic that an author who but years before was railing against the bigotry and racism of traditional and conservative Britain would magically embrace whole heartedly a 'tradition' following traditional conservative Orientalist literature.  The thought boggles the mind. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #118 - May 03, 2012, 11:30 PM

    Hey Billy.

    This Tom Holland book finally arrived in the mail. It is massive! Is it worthwhile to read every chapter in order? Or can I just skip forward to part III (the bit about Islam)?


    I'd read through it chapter by chapter. The really good, very interesting stuff on Islam starts around chapter 6. But the book deals with the whole of late antiquity to set the scene for the emergence of Islam as it were, and they are very interesting in their own right, Byzantium, Persia, Christianity, Judaism etc etc. And there is stuff on Islam throughout it.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #119 - May 03, 2012, 11:35 PM

    I'm not sure if Zia Sardar compared the Satanic Verses to Orientalist literature but there were plenty who marked the Satanic Verses as the continuation of a long strain of Orientalist 'hate' literature.  I found it ironic that an author who but years before was railing against the bigotry and racism of traditional and conservative Britain would magically embrace whole heartedly a 'tradition' following traditional conservative Orientalist literature.  The thought boggles the mind. 


    There is nothing Orientalist about the Satanic Verses. And as a novel it is all about cosmopolitanism and against any notion of 'purity'

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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