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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

 (Read 40538 times)
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  • Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     OP - March 25, 2012, 11:45 AM


    Today we have another reason to grumble at Rupert Murdoch - the review, and article about a new book on the origin and construction of Islam, that verily exposes the naked Emperor and the lies, sits behind the paywall of the Sunday Times newspaper.

    Anyway, this is the book that got a rave review.

    In The Shadow Of The Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World by Tom Holland




    Quote
    Tom Holland, author of Rubicon and Persian Fire, gives a thrilling panoramic account of the rise of Islam

    In the 6th century AD, the Near East was divided between two venerable empires: the Persian and the Roman. A hundred years on, and one had vanished forever, while the other seemed almost finished. Ruling in their place were the Arabs: an upheaval so profound that it spelt, in effect, the end of the ancient world. In The Shadow of the Sword, Tom Holland explores how this came about. Spanning Constantinople to the Arabian desert, and starring some of the most remarkable rulers who ever lived, he tells a story vivid with drama, horror and startling achievement.


    Basically, its a piece of popular history that details the fraudulence of the claims of Islam as to its origins. Written for non academics and the general public that is getting pushed by a major publisher.

    The article on it is about how people are too scared to broach this subject and instead white wash Islam, citing Karen Armstrong and the BBC.

    (I have a feeling it will receive a hostile review in the Guardian)

    Anyway, will try to get the review and more stuff as and when its out there.

    Looks to be an essential purchase.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2012, 11:48 AM


    From his website:

    +++++


    In the 6th century AD, the Near East was divided between two great empires: the Persian and the Roman. A hundred years on, and one had vanished forever, while the other was a dismembered, bleeding trunk. In their place, a new superpower had arisen: the empire of the Arabs. So profound was this upheaval that it spelled, in effect, the end of the ancient world.
     
    But the changes that marked the period were more than merely political or even cultural: there was also a transformation of human society with incalculable consequences for the future. Today, over half the world’s population subscribes to one of the various religions that took form during the last centuries of antiquity. Wherever men or women are inspired by belief in a single god to think or behave in a certain way, they bear witness to the abiding impact of this extraordinary, convulsive age.
     
    In the Shadow of the Sword explores how a succession of great empires came to identify themselves with a new and revolutionary understanding of the divine. It is a tale vivid with drama, horror and startling achievement. But there are questions as well as stories. When did Judaism and Christianity finally and definitively split from one another? Where did Islam originate: in the depths of the desert or much further to the north? Are the claims made to this day by Jews, Christians and Muslims about the origins of their faiths all of them actually true?

    http://www.tom-holland.org/books/in-the-shadow-of-the-sword/


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2012, 11:52 AM


    From the reviews, quoted on twitter:

    "Contrary to Islam’s understanding of itself, the caliphate and Arab imperialism came first, Islam later"

    "Every bit as thrilling a narrative history as H's previous works, In The Shadow of the Sword is also a profoundly important book"



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2012, 11:55 AM

    Reminds me of Islamic Imperialism by Ephraim Karsh, which I thoroughly enjoyed, so I'll look to get it at some point.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2012, 11:57 AM


    Not much that seems to be in this book will be new to most of those here who have kept up to date with the academic work described here. What seems new is that it has been cogently brought together in piece of popular history, by a mainstream publisher, that given its prominence in the Sunday Times today, will be getting significant coverage and publicity.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2012, 12:01 PM

    Just ordered my copy, will be shipped 12th April in hardcover.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2012, 12:03 PM


    Looks like a juicy read.

    *puts on mental list of things to buy in the future*

    "The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."


    "i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2012, 12:11 PM

    Having read Persian Fire and Rubicon I hope he has done his homework properly and looked at what Ibn Warraq and others are saying.

    The clash between Greece, Rome and Persia is a major theme of his and Islam has put a strange twist on things that does not make sense.

    Quote
    In the Shadow of the Sword explores how a succession of great empires came to identify themselves with a new and revolutionary understanding of the divine. It is a tale vivid with drama, horror and startling achievement. But there are questions as well as stories. When did Judaism and Christianity finally and definitively split from one another? Where did Islam originate: in the depths of the desert or much further to the north? Are the claims made to this day by Jews, Christians and Muslims about the origins of their faiths all of them actually true?

     


    Darius started our fetish with monotheism by using the Most High to unify the Persian Empire..

    http://www.tom-holland.org/books/in-the-shadow-of-the-sword/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2012, 12:16 PM

    this is confusing. the book is being sold under two subtitles and title pages. one seems to indicate that it's just about islam, the other that it's about all three abrahamic religions. which one is it?

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2012, 05:40 PM

    All of them - Holland is an expert in Greece, Rome and Persia.  He is looking at the evolution of the one God from Zarathustra via Darius in Persia, through Judaism and on to xianity and Islam.

    Hopefully it is classic stuff, looking at the context.  Islam did not come out of nowhere.  It was born during a battle of two dinosaurs - Persia and New Rome.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #10 - March 26, 2012, 10:00 AM



    Here is the piece that was in the Sunday Times by Bryan Appleyard - in addition to the review in the culture section.


    +++++

    The Truth of Islam

    Sunday Times, 25 March 2012

    Before a drop of his blood touched the ground, Mohamed Merah found himself in Paradise. Having killed three French soldiers and four Jews and, having been dispatched himself by a single shot to the head from a special forces rifle, he was a shahid, a martyr, one of the elect who had died for his faith.

    Or so he would have been told by the men that claim to be his sponsors, Jund al-Khilafah, the Soldiers of the Caliphate, a group based on the Afghan-Pakistani border and linked to both Al-Qaeda and the Haqqani network, the most resilient anti-Nato force in Afghanistan.

    Such groups have their political ends in this world, which they pursue by sustaining young men in a permanent rage. But these ends are underpinned by an absolute certainty about the next world, a place that can be entered only by the pure, those who have faith in the Koran as the words of God transmitted to his prophet, Muhammad, and in the exact details of the life and sayings of the prophet as laid down by Islamic tradition since the 9th century.

    Non-Muslims may not share this certainty but they fear its power. In what is only the latest sign that the West’s liberal values have been compromised by the jihadists’ homicidal rage, a few days ago The New York Times refused to carry a full-page ad critical of Islam. What was shocking was that the paper had just carried a full-page anti-Catholic ad.

    In London the National Theatre is staging a play about the deathly silence that often falls when talk turns to Islam. Can We Talk about This?, by Lloyd Newson, investigates the way Islamism collides with western free speech. In total contrast, the British Museum’s Hajj exhibition celebrates the beauty of the faith. That it has been made possible by Saudi money infuriated the columnist Nick Cohen, who claimed it was a whitewash of the violence and oppression that lie behind Saudi management of the great Muslim pilgrimage. Islam is everywhere accompanied by anxiety and controversy.

    But what if it’s not true? None of it? An average western non-believer may think it is not true that “martyrs” go straight to heaven or that the Koran is the literal word of God, but will probably accept the narrative laid down by Islamic scholars. This is generally thought to be more historically secure than any of the stories told by the other great religions. Even Salman Rushdie, one of Islam’s hate figures, thinks so.

    Holland’s book leaves almost no aspect of the traditional story of Islam intact“The degree of authority one can give to the evangelists about the life of Christ is relatively small,” he has written, “whereas for the life of Muhammad we know everything, more or less. We know where he lived, what his economic situation was, who he fell in love with. We know a great deal about the political circumstances and the socioeconomic circumstances of the time.”

    Islam is everywhere accompanied by anxiety and controversy. But what if it’s not true? None of it?

    Most western academics would now disagree with every word of this, and their scholarly scepticism is about to explode into the wider world with the publication of a book by the historian Tom Holland — In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World.

    In essence, it is Holland’s view that Muhammad’s life and sayings were constructed long after his death in 632 (or, according to some scholars, 634) to support and explain the Koran. He embarked on the project five years ago with the usual assumption that the stories were literally true.

    “When I began to write,” he says, “I had no real idea of the minefield I was stepping into. From various books about Muhammad I had assumed the sources were pretty solid and there must be contemporary sources for these stories. It was quite alarming when I discovered this wasn’t the case. I would keep going to the British Library and my jaw would drop at the implications of what I was reading.”

    He found that we seem to know next to nothing about the central sacred text of Islam. This holy text, not the prophet, is the core of Islam. It is what Christ is to Christianity. It is the message; Muhammad is only the messenger. Yet Fred Donner, one of America’s greatest Islamic scholars, rounded up his life’s work with a remarkable profession of ignorance.

    Donner wrote: “Those of us who study Islam’s origins have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Koran . . . They include such questions as: how did the Koran originate? Where did it come from and when did it first appear? How was it first written? In what kind of language was — is — it written? What form did it take? Who constituted its first audience? How was it transmitted from one generation to another, especially in its early years? When, how and by whom was it codified?”

    The Koran was undoubtedly already around at the time of the prophet, though in what form is not clear. For centuries there were different versions of it. The belief that there was only one text dates from as recently as 1924, when an edition was published in Cairo that, as Holland puts it, “went on to become the global standard”.

    In an astonishing discovery 40 years ago, 17 sacks were found by workers in the ceiling of a mosque in Sana’a, now the capital of Yemen but once the capital of the Jewish kingdom of Himyar. They contained parchment fragments of “what are almost certainly the oldest Korans in existence”.

    Only two German scholars were allowed to study them, and one, Gerd- Rudiger Puin, concluded that the book, like the Bible, had evolved over time and was a “cocktail of text” — a finding that casts doubt on the belief that it is the final word of God. The Yemeni authorities were furious. The texts have remained unpublished and no western scholar has since been allowed to examine them.

    “If, as both Puin and his colleague have argued, these earliest fragments are to be dated to the beginning of the 8th century, it would suggest that their ultimate origins must lie well before that time,” writes Holland.

    The texts have remained unpublished and no western scholar has since been allowed to examine them.

    Holland also does not think Mecca, revered as the birthplace of Muhammad, can have been where the story of the prophet was based. The multiple references to cattle, which could not be raised in such a dry place, and olive trees, which similarly did not grow there, suggest a location further north. Mecca barely seems to have existed at the time and is never referred to even by the highly organised Romans.

    Despite vastly increased western interest in Islam, the fierce controversy over its origins has not reached the public realm. Holland says: “What is interesting about the academic debate is that it is so seismic and yet it has barely been noticed in the world outside academia.”

    Seismic is the word. Holland’s book leaves almost no aspect of the traditional story of Islam intact as he charts its rise to global power from the ashes of the Roman and Persian empires.

    Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan, the ruler who launched the great phase of Arab imperial growth in the late 7th century, established Muhammad and the Koran as the foundations of this new empire’s faith. Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and inscribed it with passages from the Koran and references to the prophet. “He was like a cross between the emperor Constantine and St Paul,” says Holland.

    Both the detailed biography of Muhammad and the enormous list of his sayings — the hadiths — were compiled almost 200 years after his death, supposedly passed down orally from eyewitnesses through the generations. In fact, they were attempts to codify the faith of an empire that was rapidly spreading from India to the Atlantic.

    To justify these additions, explanatory links — isnads — back to the time of the prophet were constructed by Islamic scholars. They are easily debunked, however, because “once you tug on one thread, the entire tapestry falls apart”, says Holland.

    Hadiths were supposed to contain “timeless and universal” advice. Yet even early on, he points out in his book, “a number of towering Muslim scholars . . . freely acknowledged that innumerable hadiths had been faked; that caliphs, lawyers and heretics had invented them willy-nilly to serve their various purposes; that many hadiths contradicted one another”.

    Modern scholars, he adds, have shown that even the most seemingly authentic hadiths reflect controversies that were raging 200 years after Muhammad’s time. “Over and over again, the prophet had been made to serve as the mouthpiece for a whole host of rival and often directly antagonistic traditions. Many of these, far from deriving from Muhammad, were not even Arab in origin, but originated instead in the laws, the customs or the superstitions of infidel peoples.”

    If the hadiths were fakes, Holland points out, then so were the isnads that had been deployed to buttress them, “. . . and if the isnads cannot be trusted, then how can we know for sure that the Koran dates from the time of Muhammad? How can we know who compiled it, from what sources and for what motives? Can we even be sure that its origins lie in Arabia? In short, do we really know anything at all about the birth of Islam?”

    He finds a clue in the similarity between some hadiths and the Jewish Torah. Both prescribe stoning as the punishment for adulterers, yet the Koran suggests “100 lashes”.

    Holland points out that Islam continued the Christian and Jewish tradition of faith in one god. “Is it possible,” he asks, “that Islam, far from originating outside the mainstream of ancient civilisation, was in truth a religion in the grand tradition of Judaism and Christianity — one bred of the very marrow of late antiquity?”

    Holland knows taking a historical scalpel to the body of faith causes pain, and he regrets that. “On the other hand, if you want to make sense of Islam and you are not a believer, you have no choice.”

    Is Holland worried for his own safety after publishing such material? On the contrary, he is remarkably calm. “I can’t imagine that any Muslim would be overly upset because by definition I am not a Muslim so I don’t think the Koran comes from God and everything is predicated on my presumption that the story of Islam must be human. My take is very, very overtly that of someone who is not a Muslim.”

    Omar Bakri Muhammad, the Islamist leader who once threatened to give the West a 9/11 “day after day after day”, confirms this on the phone from Lebanon. “People are entitled to write the books they like as long as they do not insult the honour of the prophet. Some have said he is a homosexual or that he had sex with children: these are insults. But he can say he does not believe or even that the prophet does not exist and Muslims will just laugh. It is all in the scriptures.”

    The really big question is what effect research into the roots of Islam will have on the faith worldwide. Christianity has already gone through this crisis. In the 19th century biblical scholars examined the Christian stories as history. Their conclusions, combined with discoveries in biology and geology, resulted in a crisis that spread secularism throughout much of the West. Yet the faith survives precisely because it is a faith. Would Islam, if it were subjected to the same critical analysis? Many liberal Muslims say it already has been.

    From the beginning Islam has been a pluralist faith and its scholars have engaged in debates about the meaning and truth of all interpretations. Fundamentalists will reject such accounts and debates. They seek an absolute, literal truth to shore up their faith.

    Holland compares the Islamists’ search for a core simplicity to the rise of Protestantism in Europe. Hardline Protestants wanted to sweep away the impure accretions of tradition embodied in the Catholic Church. In one sense it worked, but in another it didn’t. Protestants renewed their faith, but their critical methods later undermined the faith of millions.

        The hadiths and the Koran were orally recorded by others and the whole tradition was passed on from person to person. They still stand the test of time.

    “If fundamentalists of any type attempt to go back to a truth that has been hidden, to get back to the original,” Holland says, “they risk finding out that there is nothing there.”

    The violent radicals who back dangerous outcasts such as Merah will dismiss all this as a western plot to crush the faith. But there are many more moderate Muslim voices.

    Ed Husain abandoned radical Islam and is now a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. He retains his faith and argues that the gap between the prophet and the written versions of his life and sayings is easily explained.

    “Islam was always an oral tradition,” he says. “The hadiths and the Koran were orally recorded by others and the whole tradition was passed on from person to person. They still stand the test of time.”

    He says Holland is on much firmer ground when he questions the claim of the fundamentalists that there is one true version of the faith. The radicals ignore the pluralist traditions of Islam when they wave their AK-47s and proclaim their way is the only way.

    Maajid Nawaz — one of the founders with Husain of the Quilliam Foundation, which works against extremism — also points out: “Globalisation has allowed previously isolated pockets of parochialism to feel a sense of brotherhood with other extremists who are also isolated, allowing them to connect up and feel they are part of a global community.”

    Where once Merah would have been just a criminal outcast, he becomes, online, a global warrior, his squalid death elevated to martyrdom. The rest of the world then finds itself cowering in fear of such people and The New York Times pulls its ad.

    http://www.bryanappleyard.com/the-truth-of-islam/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #11 - March 26, 2012, 11:42 AM

    Quote
    The Koran was undoubtedly already around at the time of the prophet, though in what form is not clear.


    Not sure if that is the reviewer or Holland.  I hope Holland has read the stuff Ibn warraq has collated.  I thought it was accepted the koran is a late 700s document originally in syrio aramaic - because Arabic did not exist in the 620's! 

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #12 - March 26, 2012, 11:43 AM

    can someone ask Ibn Warraq to review it?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #13 - March 26, 2012, 12:52 PM


    Has Ibn Warraq ever reviewed a book in a mainstream newspaper? I'm not sure he has. Because of the usual taboos, I sense he is a little marginalised.

    Will be very interesting to read the reactions to this book in various book review sections. Tom Holland is a very successful author and I'm not sure this work can be ignored as some of the academic studies on this subject have been. Its certainly getting a significant promotional push by its publisher.

    Karen Armstrong, chief hagiographer of Islam, might be roped in for the job by the Guardian, for example. A litmus test in the reaction and reviews, as it were.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #14 - March 26, 2012, 01:40 PM

    We'll see. Should be fun reading all around with the claims and counter claims that will happen

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #15 - March 26, 2012, 02:14 PM

    Any idea with where he goes with did uncle mo exist?  If a German professor can doubt it and mo does mean praised!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #16 - March 26, 2012, 02:20 PM


    I dunno, can't remember off the top of my head specifics in the review about Mo. I'm interested to see his approach to that too. Got the book on order and its delivery date is April 12th.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #17 - March 26, 2012, 02:21 PM

    Any idea with where he goes with did uncle mo exist?  If a German professor can doubt it and mo does mean praised!


    I'm guessing it's going to be along the lines of...'an amalgamation of various leaders and warriors'

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #18 - March 26, 2012, 02:23 PM


    Or some caliphs or war lords inventing a prophet in their own image retrospectively so that what they do gets divine mandate.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #19 - March 26, 2012, 02:52 PM

    Has anyone asked members here their views on if Uncle Mo existed?  I may be wrong, but it feels more as if more do question his existence than do about jesus.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #20 - March 26, 2012, 02:54 PM

    What would be the point of asking non-researchers/academics their views on a historica; truth (or not if that's the case)?

    I think yould have to present the evidence both ways in detail and then ask an opinion.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #21 - March 26, 2012, 03:05 PM

    To me after reading so many old books Muhammad NEVER existed., It is all cock and bull stories in the name of a character Muhammad  Bedouin pagans  Arabian desert erected a religion to beat Christianity and Judaism  domination as  religions of that time around Arabia..  In fact in history one will find people challenging the existence  and  authenticity of Islam's “Muhammad” The alleged "biography” of Muhammad" it self   is dated to at least 100 years after his supposed alleged death.    The   Arab-Sasanian coins  print  only  Allah, not his rasul   and the Arab-Byzantine bronze coins where  Muhammad appears as rasul Allah dated to the Sufyanid period.. It is well known and already been proven that the name “Allah” was stolen by "Islam" from the Ancient Pagan Goddess of  Bedouin pagans.  

    I would consider the Muhammad character was put together by the early Caliph regimes by using their own characteristics and there must be at least two or three Muhammads put  together  to write such stupid hadiths  and silly sunnah  

    well you guys have to read this
      

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #22 - March 26, 2012, 03:08 PM

    That makes sense Yeez, and given that you've spent the best part of your life reading up on islam I don't doubt that your opinion has merit.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #23 - March 26, 2012, 03:32 PM

    That makes sense Yeez, and given that you've spent the best part of your life reading up on islam I don't doubt that your opinion has merit.

    Just because I read books doesn't mean my opinions are unquestionable Sprout..

    anyways., On that subject of  problems with existence of Muhammad., this is good stuff to read

    Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

    The Koranic Deceptive 'Proper Names'

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #24 - March 26, 2012, 03:36 PM

    I didnt say they were, I said that I respect that they would be well-informed, not accurate.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #25 - March 27, 2012, 10:33 AM

    It seems it is not only Uncle Mo, but Mecca that didn't exist!  And the hajj was just an annual market where they had debates!

    Quote
    http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Islam3.htm
    Extensive research done by Richard W. Bulliet on the history of trade in the ancient Middle East paints a different picture than the traditional Islamic legend. The Muslim claims seem to be quite wrong: “Makka simply was not on any of the major trading routes, because Makka is tucked away at the edge of the peninsula. Only by the most tortured map reading can it be described as a natural crossroads between a North-South route and an East-West one.” Research carried out by N. Groom and W. W. Muller corroborates this view. They have written, “Makka simply could not have been on the trading route, as it would have entailed a detour from the natural route along the western ridge.” In fact, they assert that the trade route must have bypassed Makka by some one hundred miles.”

    Moreover the Greco-Roman trade with India has already been collapsed by the 3rd century A.D. Therefore, in the Messenger’s time there was neither an overland route nor a Roman market to which the trade was destined. The trade remained there, was controlled by the Abyssinians and not the Arabs; and not Makka but Adulis, the port city on the Abyssinian coast of the Red Sea, was the trading centre of that region.

    The Greek historians Cosmas, Procopius and Theodoretus were closer to the events of the time, and the Greeks to whom the trade went had not even heard a place called Makka. If Makka were so important, certainly those traders would have noted its existence. P. Crone in her work points out that the Greek trading documents refer to the towns of Ta’if (which is to the southeast of and close to the present day Makka), and to Yathrib (later Medina), as well as Kaybar/Khayber (means ‘fortress’ in Hebrew) in the north, but there is no mention of Makka. Under these circumstances, the historicity of a settlement right at the centre of the early Islam becomes doubtful. Finally, in addition to the disagreement as to the geographical location of Makka in the early secular sources, there is also a degree of confusion even within the Islamic tradition. According to the research carried out by J. van Ess (also in Muhammad bin Ahmad al-Dahabi, 1369), in both the first and second civil wars, there are accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Irak via Makka.


    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #26 - March 27, 2012, 10:56 AM

    Tom Holland has just tweeted me writing

    Quote
    holland_tom Tom Holland
    no question Muhammad existed. A number of near Christian contemporaries mention him by name. It's the Arab silence that's odd.
    Mar 26, 6:40 PM via web


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #27 - March 27, 2012, 11:08 AM

    Fascinating, I wonder who he refers to other than post conquest writers like John of Damascus

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #28 - March 27, 2012, 11:15 AM

     
    I didnt say they were, I said that I respect that they would be well-informed, not accurate.

    I know you didn't say Sprout but I was reminding readers that people Must question "my opinions also"..

    Quote
    It seems it is not only Uncle Mo, but Mecca that didn't exist!  And the hajj was just an annual market where they had debates!

    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518

    Tom Holland has just tweeted me writing


    holland_tom Tom Holland
    no question Muhammad existed. A number of near Christian contemporaries mention him by name. It's the Arab silence that's odd.
    Mar 26, 6:40 PM via web

    Well moi.,  When people says that., They are looking for a Mecca as described in Islam,  as town filled with rich and powerful with  lots of Arabian pagan   temples. Clearly such town didn't exist  but may be there was small village.,  who knows??

    Same thing goes to Muhammad.    The word  "Muhammad" in Arabic  means "Praiseworthy".  Well those guys could have used that word as an adjective to any good guy  of that time.   But Muhammad as described in Quran and Hadith is very unique character.  I too don't believe such character existed.   It appears this Muhammad voodoo doll of haidth was created by  Bedouin Arab  RASCALS  to run through Arabian peninsula with violence and with a cunning political master document..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #29 - March 27, 2012, 11:59 AM


    I'll write about the book here when I get my copy and try to give an idea of what it says and just in general how it goes about it. Anyone else who gets it might like to do the same.

    Meanwhile, the author has a twitter account and posted this today:

    Quote
    A presumption that writing a book about Islam will get you killed really does seem to me the most egregious form of Islamophobia imaginable


    I see what he's saying, but the point is that the presumption emanates from a section within the ummah who do project threats in response to criticism and scrutiny, and so the source of this 'Islamophobia' is within Islam itself.


    Also for moi, he also tweeted the following:

    Quote
    Yes, Ibn Warraq's various collections of essays are an incredibly useful resource.


    Which is interesting and good to hear.

    Here is his twitter account:

    https://twitter.com/#!/holland_tom



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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