It's clear enough that it just means spread / extend stuff out. It's too ambiguous to prove that it's talking about the shape of the whole Earth or whatever in those verses.
yeah I think that too, I have even seen many Muslims admit that the Quran in those verses is not talking about the shape of the earth or it doesn't even refer to a spherical earth.
As for the person in your link who merely copied and pasted desperate garbage from the complete idiot, Osama Abdallah, about totally different words for spreading / throwing things that are *already* round, it's just laughable. 18:86 and 18:90 are very strong evidence for a flat earth belief.
I don't know who that guy is but what got me confused is this part:
دحرجَ (dahraja): to roll, roll along, to roll down, I was wondering if that is somehow related to Daha
also this part:
(daha): ROUND and SPHERICAL:
إندحَّ بطنه إندحاحاّ اي إتّسع His tummy became round and bigger.
In Prophet Muhammad's Hadith: كان لأسامة بطننٌ مُندحٌ اي متسع Osama had a round and big tummy.
و بطنٌ مُنداحُ أي خارخٌ مُدوّر His tummy is mun-daahun means it is OUT THERE AND ROUND مُدوّر.
و رجلٌّ دحدحُ اي قصير غليظ البطن A man is dahda-hun which means he is short, stocky and has a big and fat tummy.
الدحداح هو المستدير الململم The dahdaah is the person who is ROUND and STOCKY.
الدِردِحة من النساء التي طولها و عرضها سواء Al-dir-dihati from the women is the one whose height and width look the same! SHE LOOKS ROUND, and the by the way, the distance between the earth's north and south poles is approximately only 45 miles shorter than the earth's width.
دحا (daha): الدوحة أي المظلة العظيمة Al-Doha, as in Qatar's capital, means a big umbrella.
Allah Almighty also Said that He made the earth's sky a ceiling to us;
Noble Verse(s) 21:32;
وجعلنا السماء سقفا محفوظا وهم عن اياتها معرضو
Yusuf Ali:
[079:030] And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
[079:031] He draweth out therefrom its moisture and its pasture;
On eggs, I linked you before to another thread about prolate and oblate spheroids.
Yes you did, and I think that is a pretty solid argument you have there plus u don't need to know Arabic to realize the Egg thing is nonsense because of its shape, I make no bones about it.
Sorry, I'm really not interested in a discussion about their desperate and ridiculous claims for a round earth in the Qur'an. There must have been dozens of threads on this already!
It is ok, I just thought u might be interested plus I opened this thread to question the validity of those claims Muslims make and using Lane's Lexicon as an excuse.
If "Allah" really knew the earth was spheroid he would have given much better clues than these! The fact that people have to resort to such desperate rubbish demonstrates that the Qur'an is far from a perfect book, and thus is a manmade product of its time.
I agree even-though many Muslims will argue on the meaning of the word perfect but I agree with your point.
No more debunking requests addressed to me please btw! I really can't be bothered
I am sorry for bothering you, that was clearly not my intention, I just wanted to know some stuff abut Lane's Lexicon and Al Jalailan and other dictionaries which Muslims use to prove their claims.
I will now post some useful stuff I found from some other people on internet regarding the shape of the earth:
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The word in question is the verb (dahâ). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Qur’ân in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât: 30]
This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât : 31-32]
Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.
With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:
Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg an "udhiyy". This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w – the same etymological root as the verb dahâ. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.
From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depression where the ostrich deposits its egg.
Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh reprimand.
In any case, verse 30 of Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allah knows best.
The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’ân.
The Earth is practically a perfect sphere.
Yes, the Earth is ever so slightly flattened at the poles, due to its rotation, technically making it an approximate "oblate spheroid", a rounded shape with a sight bulge at the equator.
However, the difference made by the bulge is extremely minute. The diameter at the equator is only 42.72 kilometers greater than the diameter at the poles. Considering that the average diameter of the Earth is about 12,742 km, the difference is infinitesimal – nothing at all like the shape of an ostrich egg, which is visibly an oval. The average ostrich egg is 15 cm long and 13 cm wide.
Therefore, the claim that the Earth is shaped like an ostrich egg is not only unfounded scripturally, it is scientifically inaccurate.
We should also take this occasion to mention that the Earth is almost perfectly smooth. Its near-perfect smoothness is not compromised by the contours of its crust. The highest mountains and deepest trenches of the crust are insignificant compared to the vastness of the Earth's surface.
To get an idea of how insignificant the mountains and trenches are when compared to the Earth's surface, we can compare the smoothness of the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very smooth and regular. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is much more perfectly smooth than what is allowed for a billiard ball.
And Allah knows best.
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The QUR'AN says that EARTH is FLAT in more than one place.
Q. 2:22: WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know.
Q. 15:19: And the earth have WE spread out, and set therein firm mountains and cause every thing to grow therein in proper proportion.
Q. 79:30 And after that He spread the earth. (Wal'arda ba'da dhalika da-ha-ha.)
Many MUSLIMS LIE that the Arabic word "Dahaha" is derived from "Dahhyah" which means "Egg" The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha which mean an ostrich-egg. "
Hence I am giving an explanation as to why it's not "ostrich egg, chicken egg or any egg"
COMMENT: Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:
* "da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
And that is exactly what Al-Jalalayn has said.
* "da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)
* "al-udh'y, al-idhi'y, al-udhu'wa, al-udhi'ya: The egg of the ostrich in the sand."
We must pay attention to what Al-Munjid is saying here: "The egg of the ostrich ‘in the sand’" and the following is the reason for this expression:
When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it). That is where the name came from. The Arabic dictionary never states that the verb "da'ha" means "made round" or "made in the shape of the egg of an ostrich".
The word 'Dahaha' mentioned in the Quran ( 79:30) means flat.or spread out. it does not mean shaped like an ostrich's egg. The word 'Al madahi' means round stones. Ask any Arabic speaking person. The word " Al Madahi' is no where mentioned in the Quran.
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LANE'S LEXICON ENTRY ON DAHAHA
Many Islamist apologists attempt to deflect criticism that the Quran promotes the mistaken belief of a flat earth by the word dahaha in 79:30, commonly translated as ‘spread’ or ‘stretched’.
79:30 والارض بعد ذلك دحاها
Transliteration Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha
Literal And the earth/Planet Earth after that He blew and stretched/spread it.
Yusuf Ali And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Pickthal And after that He spread the earth,
Arberry and the earth-after that He spread it out,
Shakir And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Sarwar After this, He spread out the earth,
Hilali/Khan And after that He spread the earth;
Malik After that He spread out the earth,[30]
Maulana Ali And the earth, He cast it after that.
Free Minds And the land after that He spread out.
Some Islamists have attempted to translated the word dahaha to mean made egg-shaped or like an ‘ostrich egg’.
Khalifa He made the earth egg-shaped.
QXP And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
Quote:
In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" doesn't mean extended (to a wide expanse). The word literally mean formed in "round shape" or "egg shape"...
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm Some will also claim that the root word for dahaha is duhiya which means ostrich egg.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/February2006/QuestionHour-DrZakirNaik/?PHPSESSID=c30907389ab7486d8886b1a992e9ae1a www.islamawareness.net/Science/qms.pdf This 'dahaha = ostrich egg' apologetic has already been debunked by reference to Arabic dictionaries.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6643&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Nevertheless, many Muslims still cling to the belief that dahaha means an ostrich egg, despite the scientific difficulty this presents in that the earth is an oblate spheroid while the ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid. Thus the earth and the ostrich egg are dissimilar in three dimensions.
A further Islamist apologetic is to point to a game played by Meccans in their attempt to link dahaha with roundness.
Quote:
In 79:30, Allah says,
[Transliteration] Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha [79:30]
The key word in the above verse is “dahaha”. In Arabic, there is a phrase, “iza dahaha” which means “when he throws the stones over the ground to the hole”. The hole is called “Udhiyatun”. “Almadahi” signify round stones according to the size of which a hole is dug in the ground in which the stones are thrown in a game. “Almadahi” also signify a round thing made of lead by the throwing of which persons contend together. So there is a signification of ROUNDNESS in the root of the word “dahaha”. According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[ just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].
The Arabic words for “flat” or “level” or “straight shaped” are “sawi” and “almustavi”. There is not a single place in Quran where there is any indication of the earth being “flat” or “straight shaped”. The word “faraash” in 2:22, 51:48; the word “wasia” in 4:97, 29:56, 30:10; the word “mahd” in 20:53, 43:10, 78:6; the word “basaat” in 71:19; the word “suttihat” in 88:20; and the word “tahaaha” in 91:6, all may mean, “to spread”, “to expand” or “to extend” with slight differences in their connotations but none signify the earth being straight-shaped or flat.
http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/earth-shape.htm The Islamist contention that almadahi and udhiyatun conveys the concept of roundness which they link to the root of dahaha is false for the reason that the 'roundness' of the almadahi and udhiyatun is only in two dimensions. The almadahi is round like a piece of Arab bread (i.e. shaped like a disc) and the udhiyatun is also round in two dimensions. Nevertheless, one of the meanings of dahaha is to 'throw' and that is the derivation of the words 'almadahi and udhiyatun'.
The evidence can be seen from Lane's Lexicon, from which the Islamist appears to have referred to, but did not allude to the two-dimensional characteristic of the stones and the hole in the aforementioned game.
LANE'S LEXICON ENTRY
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000023.pdf Quote:
Dhaheelath see dahl, near the end of the paragraph. dhahhal One who hunts, or catches game, by making use of the dhahool so in the verse cited voce dhahool l. (TA.) Dhahil Very rancorous, malevolent, malicious, or spiteful; wont to hide enmity, and violent haired, in his heart, and to watch for opportunities to indulge it, or exercise it. (Az, TA.)
Dhahool [an arabicized word from the Pers. Dhakhool] A thing which the hunter of gazelles sets up [for the purpose of scaring them into his toil or into the neighbourhood of his place of concealment], consisting of pieces of wood: (S : ) or a thing which the hunter sets up for [the purpose of scaring] the [wild] asses, (K, TA,) and As adds, and the gazelles, (TA,) consisting of pieces of wood like short scars (K,* TA) stuck in the ground, with some pieces of ragged cloth upon their heads; and sometimes set up at night, for [the purpose of searing] the gazelle, with the addition of a lighted lamp; (TA; ) [whence] Dhu-r-Rummeh says,
Wa Yashrabna Ajnan Wannujoomu Ka’annaha
Masabeeh dahhalin Yuzakkee Zubalaha
[And they drink water that is altered for the worse in taste and colour, while the stars are like the lamps of the hunter by means of the Dahool when he make. their wicks to blaze brightly]: (TA : ) the pl. is dawaheel (K.)
Dahw
1. Daha (., MM_b;,, 1,) first pers. Dahouth aor, yad'hoo inf. N. dahoo He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended; (S, Msb, K; ) a thing; (K; ) and, when said of God, the earth; (Fr, S, Mb, 1V; ) As also daha first pers. dahaithu (K in art. daha) aor. yaad’heae inf. n. dahae: (Msb, and K in art. dahae : ) or He (God) made the earth wide, or ample; as explained by an Arab woman of the desert to Sh: (TA : ) also, said of an ostrich, (S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs: (S, TA : ) and, said of a man, he spread, &c., and made plain, even, or smooth. (TA in art. dhaha ) - Also, said of a man, (K,,) aor. yad’hoo, inf. n. dahwu(TA,) i.q. Jamie as also daja; on the authority of 1Abr. (TA.) [You say, dhahaha He compressed her; like as you say, dhajaha.] _ Also He threw, or cast, and impelled, propelled, oi removed from its place, a stone, with his hand (TA.) One says also, to him who is playing with walnuts, abidil maddha va adhhuhu, meaning [Make thou the distance far, and] throw it. (S,TA.: See also midh’hath, in two places. And of a torrent one says, dhaha bilbat’hai It cast along [the soft earth and pebbles in its course; or drove then along]. (TA.) And of rain, one says, dhaha Al hissa an waj’hil Ardhi (S,Msb) It drove the pebbles from the surface of the earth; (Msb; ) or removed them. (TA.) [See also dhaha, in the next art.] And aldhahwu bilhijarathi also signifies The vying, one with another, in throwing stones, and striving to surpass [in doing so]; as also al Midahath [inf. n- of dahee]. (TA marra yad’hoo inf.n. dahow said of a horse, He went along throwing out his fore legs without raising his hoofs much from the ground. (S,TA.) = dhahal bathan The belly was, or became, large, and hanging down; (Kr, K; ) and Indhahee (the belly) was, or became, wide, or distended: (MF : ) or both signify it (the belly) became swollen, or inflated, or big,. and hung down, by reason of fatness or disease; as also Dhau and Indah (TA in art dooh.)
3. Dhahee inf.n. Mudahath: see 1.
5. Thud'hee He spread out, or extended, himself; syn. Thabassuth. (K: in art. Daha.) You say, nama fulan fathadhahha Such a one slept, and [extended himself so that he] lay upon a vide space of ground (TA in that art.) - And thadhahhathil ibilu fil ardhi The camels made hollows in the ground where they lay down, it being soft; leaving therein cavities like those of bellies: thus they do only when they are fat. (El-'Itreefee, TA in art. Daha. )
7. see 1, last sentence.
9. id'havi [of the measure if’alath for if’alle like Ar’awa] It (a thing, TA) was, or became, spread, spread out or forth, expanded, or extended. (K.)
Dhahin [act. part n. of 1]. Allahumma dhahil Mad’huwwath in a prayer of ‘Alee, means O God, the Spreader and Expander of the [seven] earths: (TA : ) al Mdhuwwath [properly] signifies the things that are spread, &c.; as also Al Mudh’hiyyath. (TA in art. dhaha ) _ Al’Matharuddahee The rain that removes [or drives] the pebbles from the surface of the earth. (TA.)
Ud'hiyy (S.K) (Originally od'huwa of the measure Uf’ool from dhahaithu but said in the S to be of that measure from dhahouthu the dial. var. dhahaithu not being there mentioned,] and and id’hiyy and Ud’hiyyath and ud’huwwath (K) The place of the laying of eggs, (S, K,) and of the hatching thereof, (S,) , of the ostrich, (S. K. ) in the sand; (K; ) because that bird expands it, and makes it wide, with its foot, or leg; for the ostrich has no [nest such as is termed] Ush (S: ) pl. Adahin (TA in the present art.) and Adahee [i. e., if not a mistranscription, Adahiyyu agreeably with the sing.]: (TA in art. dhaha and mudhhiyya [likewise] signifies the place of the eggs of the ostrich. (S.) [Hence,] binthu Adh’hiyyathun A female ostrich. (TA.)_[Hence also,] Al Udkhiyyu and Al Id’hiyyu A certain Mansion of the Moon, (K, TA,) [namely, the Twenty-first Mansion,] between the Na’aai’m sa’dha zabih (more commonly) called Al Baldath likened to the Adhahhee of the ostrich. (TA.)
Ud’huwwath and udh’hiyyath: see the next preceding paragraph, in three places: - and for the latter, see also mid’hath, below.
Mad’han see ud’hiyy
Mid’hath A wooden thing with which a child is driven along (yud’ha), and which, passing over the ground, sweeps away everything against which it comes (K, TA.) - Accord. to Sh, A certain thing with which the people of Mekkeh play: he says, I heard El-Asadee describe it thus: Almadahiyy and Almasadiyy signify stones like the [small round cake of bread called] qursath, according to the size which a hole is dug, and widened a little: then they throw those stones (yad’hoona biha) to that hole and if the stone fall therein, the person wins; but if not, he is overcome: you say of him yad’hoo and yasdoo when he throws the stones (Iza dhahaha) over the ground to the hole: and the hole is called ud'hiyyath. (TA.) [Accord. to Freytag, the authority of the Deewan El-Hudhaleeyeen, A round thing made of lead, by the throwing of which persons contend together.]
Almadhuwwath and almad’hiyyath see Dahin,
Dhaha
1. Dhaha first pers. Dhahaithu,aor. yad’ha inf.n. dhah’ya: see 1 in art. Dhahoo.__ dhahaithul ibil (K,) inf. n. as above, (TA,) I drove the camel,; (K; ) as also dhahaithuha (TA.)
[4 mentioned by Freytag as on the authority of the K is a mistake for 5.]
5 (mentioned in this art. in the V and TA): see art. Dhahoo
7 (mentioned in this art. by MF): see art. Dhahoo.
Dhah’yath A single act of dhahy, i. e. spreading, (Msb.) = A she-ape, or she-monkey. (K.)
dhihyath A mode, or manner, of dhahyu, i. e. spreading, &c. (Msb.) = A headman, or chief, (R, K, TA,) in an absolute sense, in the dial. of El-Yemen, (R, TA,) and particularly, of an army, or a military force. (K, TA.) AA says that it signifies "a lord," or "chief," in Pers.; but seems to be from dhahahu aor. yadh’hoohu, meaning "he spread it, and made it plain or even ;" because it is for the headman or chief to do this; the a. being changed into LS as it is in swibyath and fith’yath; and if so, it belongs to art. dahoo. (TA.) [Accord. to Golius, the pl. is dihau; but I think that it is more probably dhahan.] It is in a trad. that what is called Albaithul Ma’emoor [q.v. in art. Amr] is entered every day by seventy thousand companies of angels, every one of these having with it a dhih’yath and consisting seventy thousand angels. (TA.)
Ud’hiyyun and Id’hiyyun see art. dhaha.
Ud’hiyyath: see ud’hiyyu, in art. dahoo, in two places.
Note that Lane also translates dahaha to mean the place in the sand where the ostrich lays its eggs, and not to the eggs themselves.
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Hope this will help.
Topic: Lane's Lexicon and other legit translations.