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 Topic: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi

 (Read 2404 times)
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  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #60 - February 16, 2012, 03:33 AM

    Grin Yeez, that article was satire.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #61 - February 16, 2012, 03:48 AM

    Grin Yeez, that article was satire.

    really.. Damn I am already lost with her rantings against RD.,  and making people who criticize religions as Poltpots/Hitlers and Maos..

    Rascals confusing me...

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    Release The bloggers from Jails.  Protect The Bloggers from  Baboons
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #62 - February 16, 2012, 06:02 AM

    I wish people would study history

    Quote
    Canossa (Province of Reggio Emilia) is a comune and castle town in Emilia-Romagna, famous as the site where Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV did penance in 1077, standing three days bare-headed in the snow, in order to reverse his excommunication by Pope Gregory VII. The Walk to Canossa is sometimes used as a symbol of the changing relationship between the medieval Church and State.



    I don't see the relevance of this.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #63 - February 16, 2012, 03:14 PM

    It's amazing watching her completely destroy her own career. Wasn't she egged by some Muslims a while back?
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #64 - February 16, 2012, 05:23 PM

    Yes she was Tut, I believe for not being Muslim enough etc.

    "It's not enough to say that I don't believe in God. I actually regard the system as distressing: I am offended by some of the things said in the Bible and the Qur'an and I refute them." Emma Thompson

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #65 - February 16, 2012, 08:42 PM

    .
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #66 - February 16, 2012, 08:46 PM

    It has been linked already, earlier in the thread. Wink

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #67 - February 16, 2012, 08:47 PM

    Some of what she describes as Christian isn't the big definition given by most theologists. I agree there are parts of Christian dogma in European cultures but that doesn't make a person Christian. For comparison in the formerly Soviet run parts of E Europe I am sure there are hints of Communism in the cultures there, this doesn't make everyone Communist all of a sudden.

    "It's not enough to say that I don't believe in God. I actually regard the system as distressing: I am offended by some of the things said in the Bible and the Qur'an and I refute them." Emma Thompson

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #68 - February 16, 2012, 09:35 PM


    Britain and Europe grew out of a Christian past, you cannot deny that. But it has grown as much in reaction against aspects of Christianity as 'out' of Christianity. And it was a struggle, it was violent, and it was resisted and fought by Christianity.

     And Europe has grown out of the Hellenic culture too, which is part of our civilisation.

    If you want to describe Europe in these terms we have evolved with Hellenic - Judaeo-Christian - Enlightenment roots.

    So we have pagan Hellenic roots too. And we are in a post Englightenment civilisation. Our present condition kicked to move beyond the constrictions of Christianity.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #69 - February 16, 2012, 09:38 PM

    Don't forget the Romans. Tongue

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #70 - February 16, 2012, 09:43 PM


    Exactly. Greece and Rome define us today. We have pagan roots. The achievments of the 'pagans' define us today. Sure, Christian achievments define us too. But the step change that was made was the Enlightenment and it is in the after burn of the Enlightenment that we exist today. And it was against the definitions of institutional Christianity that we defined what we are today.

    This is what these revivalists don't acknowledge.

    They are a defeated people - in as much as they define themselves in empirical ways.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #71 - February 17, 2012, 02:32 AM

    On Question Time there was a young chap who wrote 'Chavs'? on the panel.  Anyways he came out with a point that 'militant secularism' was being used to demonise muslims. I will try to find footage.

    My real reason for posting here is to say to you Billy, that post above of your sounds soooooo intelligent. Whether I can make sense of them sometimes or disagree with them, you come across a dead intelligent.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #72 - February 17, 2012, 12:41 PM


    Polly Toynbee makes good points.

    This backs up the point I made about how Christianity has been fully secularised in Britain for the majority of Christians - credit to them, they have a nuanced understanding of the issues, in contradiction to the shrill hysterics.

    Quote
    But in defending religious privilege, they are on their own: Ipsos Mori found 74% of Christians consider religion should be a private matter and should not influence public policy, so even most Christians are secularists.


    And then this - Warsi has failed, because she fails to understand this country:

    Quote
    For Cameron, Lady Warsi may be a useful canary-testing if American flag-and-faith culture wars might fly over here. Mercifully, every poll shows the answer is no. The CofE is no longer the Tory party at prayer: polls show its pews filled mainly with the liberal-minded.





    ++++++

    No surprise that the Queen defends the established church, as she is the anointed defender of the faith. In a week of attacks on secularism she has invented a new role: "not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead, the church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country." Who is threatening the free practice of any faith? Not any secularists I know.

    Hers is a curiously Jesuitical justification for the CofE's uniquely privileged status, but the faiths are glad to circle their wagons round her against the unbelievers. Each has their own divinely revealed unique truth, often provoking mortal conflict, Muslim v Copt, Catholic v Protestant, Hindu v Muslim or Sunni v Shia. But suddenly the believers are united in defence against the secular, willing to suspend the supremacy of their own prophets to agree that any religion, however alien, from elephant god to son of God, is better than none.

    They can all feel their victimhood now, facing what Baroness Warsi called a rising tide of "militant secularisation" reminiscent of "totalitarian regimes". Warsi on the warpath headed a delegation to the Vatican of six ministers, all agreeing the common enemy was not just the secularists but the "liberal elite", too. How the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph loved wallowing in the CofE as victim against the rise of christianophobia, as if the waspish Prof Richard Dawkins had thrown them all to the lions. But in defending religious privilege, they are on their own: Ipsos Mori found 74% of Christians consider religion should be a private matter and should not influence public policy, so even most Christians are secularists. For Cameron, Lady Warsi may be a useful canary-testing if American flag-and-faith culture wars might fly over here. Mercifully, every poll shows the answer is no. The CofE is no longer the Tory party at prayer: polls show its pews filled mainly with the liberal-minded.

    The prefix "aggressive" or "militant" is now super-glued to the word "secularist", but as president of the British Humanist Association and honorary associate of the National Secular Society, I find nothing extreme about trying to keep religion separate from the state. Aggressive? You should see this week's "burn in hell" messages to the BHA attacking "that spastic Hawking who denies God", and many more obscene unprintables.

    I will defend to the death anyone's right to practice any faith, if it breaks no law, interferes with nobody's rights nor claims undue public policy influence. Church bells, calls to prayer, displays of crucifixes, beards or side-locks are freedoms, alongside bare midriffs and knicker-short miniskirts. Personally, I am affronted by women in face veils, but that's my problem. I will argue against them but freedom of speech, thought and dress are non-negotiable. But so is the right to robust argument that may offend religious sensibilities, including the right to challenge the improbability of the faith itself – and the right to make jokes.

    Rev Giles Fraser wielded a deft stiletto, accusing secularists of closet racism. "Attacking religious belief in general neatly fits alongside a hostility to Islam." I am hostile to any religion if it ever cuts across civic freedoms, for its own people or for anyone who challenges it. Without causing gratuitous offence for the sake of it, there is a duty to stand by brave free-speech campaigners, such as Maryam Namazie, organiser for One Law for All. An anti-Sharia meeting was broken up last month at Queen Mary College. Police were called after a man came in, filmed the audience and said he'd hunt down anyone who insulted the prophet. They campaign against Muslim arbitration tribunals, whose judgments can be applied in civil courts, nobody knowing if women suffered religious intimidation to sign away rights.

    Fraser makes an engaging defence of the CofE's historic settlement that refused, in Elizabeth I's words, to make a window into men's souls. Yet it tears itself apart over women bishops, gay priests and gay marriage, despite the liberal majority in its pews. The existing 26 bishops add to an unrepresentative preponderance of the devout in the Lords who killed off the assisted dying bill, ignoring 80% public support. This is the last great personal freedom the religions conspire to deny everyone else, inflicting daily torture on the terminally ill.

    Julian Baggini, writing in the Guardian yesterday took a swipe at secularism, wondering why bother with trivia like prayers at council meetings. He omits the heart of the matter, such as the right to die. Or the third of state schools run by religions, mainly CofE, oversubscribed as their results are burnished by admissions policies that consign an unfair share of poor or chaotic families to neighbouring schools. Though polls find only minority support for faith schools, the religions are rushing to set up free schools: this week the evangelical Christian Family Schools bid for 10 sites in Sheffield. Meanwhile, faith organisations are given more contracts for social services: once outsourced, clients lose Human Rights Act protection against religious coercion, harassment or discrimination. None of this is trivial.

    "Faith and reason go hand in hand," said Lady Warsi. She's entitled to her view. I admire Dawkins' and Hawking's passionate devotion to the beauty of scientific proof, but it would be absurd to claim humanists are any more rational than others. Nor will we accept the jibe that unbelievers lack spirituality. Humans are only intermittently rational, living mostly in realms of hope, fear, memory or fantasy, lost in the power of the imagination.

    Odder still is the religious claim to a monopoly on moral authority, as Cameron did in his pre-Christmas "We are a Christian country" speech. Religious and irreligious alike commit atrocities, but faith ferments crusade, jihad and martyrdom. Belief makes people neither better nor worse: the latest research by the National Council for Voluntary Organisations found the religious no more likely to volunteer than non-believers. As social animals, thriving through co-operation, the selfish gene vies with a collective instinct for social justice, from the day a child first protests "it's not fair". Claiming no special superiority, the view that our fate is in our hands makes humanists naturally progressive, not fatalistic. There is nothing militant about demanding that civic life and law binds us together as equal citizens, regardless of whatever peculiar ideas everyone harbours in their imagination.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/16/civic-life-law-ritual-religion

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #73 - February 17, 2012, 01:40 PM

    Quote
    going to war with people who prefer slightly different stories to us”,


    Are we killing each other about which story?  Now that is terrifying!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #74 - February 17, 2012, 05:15 PM

    Exactly. Greece and Rome define us today. We have pagan roots. The achievments of the 'pagans' define us today. Sure, Christian achievments define us too. But the step change that was made was the Enlightenment and it is in the after burn of the Enlightenment that we exist today. And it was against the definitions of institutional Christianity that we defined what we are today.


    Regarding that. Dont know if you have read it before, but Kenan Malik have written an excellent essay about that.

    Rethinking The Idea of Christian Europe: http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/christian-europe/

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #75 - February 17, 2012, 06:41 PM



    I don't see the relevance of this.


    It is where and when the concept of the secular was invented.  Secularism is actually a way to allow religion and the political power to get on.  It is very stupid for religios to attack it - they will end up with nothing.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #76 - February 17, 2012, 07:12 PM

    I can't forget the time when Madam Warsi was pelted with egss in Luton by militant secularists...oh wait

  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #77 - February 17, 2012, 07:52 PM

    It is where and when the concept of the secular was invented.  Secularism is actually a way to allow religion and the political power to get on.  It is very stupid for religios to attack it - they will end up with nothing.


    The notion of there being a difference between secular and ecclesiastical authority predates the Investiture Controversy. When Jesus said "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" he talking about two separate institutions, one being the church and the other being the secular state.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #78 - February 17, 2012, 08:00 PM

    In that instance he was specifically talking about taxes, IIRC, not about secularism per se.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #79 - February 17, 2012, 08:04 PM

    I can't forget the time when Madam Warsi was pelted with egss in Luton by militant secularists...oh wait

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    It is kind of funny given she knows what real militancy looks like that she should use that kind of language for secularists. I don't think she's a bad person. But like alot of religionists, she doesn't think straight sometimes.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #80 - February 17, 2012, 08:13 PM

    In that instance he was specifically talking about taxes, IIRC, not about secularism per se.

    I know, I was just pointing that the church and the state have always been considered two separate institutions and the notion of a secular authority predates the investiture controversy, which moi stated was what originated the idea of the secular.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #81 - February 17, 2012, 08:47 PM

    They haven't!  That is why we find a continual tooing and froing about this all over the planet.  It is really only in the early Middle Ages that religion got corralled into a corner at a significant point.  It still is not corralled in the Islamic world.

    We interpret things like that now, but people in the past could not think in these terms because these ideas had not been invented.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    ― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #82 - February 17, 2012, 11:29 PM

    The irony of the use of this misnomer epithet 'militant atheist/secularist' is that it only reminds us that those who act militarily and with vigour and violence in this regard usually do so in the name of a god. They shoot themselves in the foot.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #83 - February 23, 2012, 04:11 AM

    I was just going through a few more Newsthump articles and found this cracker:

    Why do people treat us with the same contempt we show homosexuals, ask Christians

    Quote
    Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey is to launch a campaign that will encourage Christians to wear their faith with pride after many Christians expressed concerns that they are being treated with the same sort of contempt they normally reserve for homosexuals.

    Lord Carey will launch a leaflet in which he says, "I am proud of our tradition of tolerance towards straight people and our historic commitment to welcoming perfectly heterosexual strangers.

    Obviously it goes without saying that any strangers would have to complete a questionnaire to ascertain their sexual preference before we start rolling out the red carpet.

    You should also read nothing into the fact that I'm launching this campaign on World Gay Plague Day. Sorry, World AIDS Day."

    The campaign, called Not Ashamed Day is being organised by Christian Concern, who are worried that they are unable to do and say whatever they want, whenever they want, without question.

    The group have highlighted the case of Gary McFarlane, who was sacked as a Relate Counsellor for refusing to give sex therapy to gay couples.

    "The thought of men joined in a sordid daisy chain of sodomy, their muscular frames glistening with sweat as they explore each other's bodies. Probing, caressing, licking....ahem, these aren't things that Christians want to have to think about let alone deal with." Revealed a Christian Concern spokesman before holding his Bible in front of his groin.


    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #84 - February 23, 2012, 11:44 AM

    Oh, very good article !
  • Re: Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
     Reply #85 - March 16, 2012, 01:54 PM

    CHRISTIANITY:

    the theory that a concealed hidden semitic sky deity created the universe with his magical powers, let it evolve in violence & meaninglessness for billions of years, then intervened quite recently in in bronze age palestine/israel by using a pious jewish virgin to send his one and only offspring who also had superpowers, which he chose not to use to prevent himself being killed by 3 nails on 2 planks of wood by mere mortals.........but there was a reason for that ! he took the punishment for all of OUR sins, for we humans our sinners...... Then 3 days later he rose from the dead like a zombie into a new body & and now he talks to you and grants you wishes as your invisible genie friend who grants you more then 3 wishes....AND YOU ALL WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS STORY AND ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOUR

    and we have politicians in our country promoting this?
    and we have the audacity to call the middle east primitive n archaic ?

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