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 Topic: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28

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  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #240 - February 21, 2012, 06:35 PM

    No. My point is that in both cases the media output is the same. The only difference is in the two people concerned. IOW, it's not the media output that is the core problem.


    Ok, maybe it isn't the core problem, or maybe it is......

    Quote
    Fiji, a nation that has traditionally cherished the fuller figure, has been struck by an outbreak of eating disorders since the arrival of television in 1995, a study has shown.

    <sinp>

    In 1998 - 38 months after the station went on air - Ms Becker conducted a survey of teenage girls and found that 74% of them felt they were "too big or fat".

    Ms Becker said there had been a sharp rise in indicators of disordered eating, such as induced vomiting.

    She said 15% of the girls reported they had vomited to control weight.   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/347637.stm


    Pre-media = no real issues

    Post media = rise in eating disorders.

    Why is that?  just an Island full of women just waiting for a trigger?

    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #241 - February 21, 2012, 07:04 PM

    Not to distract from the issue but... Fiji got TV in 95? wacko
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #242 - February 21, 2012, 08:29 PM

    Ok, maybe it isn't the core problem, or maybe it is......

    Pre-media = no real issues

    Post media = rise in eating disorders.

    Why is that?  just an Island full of women just waiting for a trigger?

    Is there a difference between eating disorder:

    Disordered [eating] means you are eating in a way that harms you psychologically and/or physically. Psychological harm may occur when you use food for reasons other than sustenance and pleasure.

    Eating to manage your emotions is probably the most common example. When eating is your go–to emotional haven, you don’t learn more effective ways to manage your emotions. When eating for psychological purposes becomes compulsive—that is, you feel driven and as if the eating is beyond your control–you are bingeing (or at least in bingeing’s neighborhood)…

    When you employ weight loss strategies that can or do compromise your physical health, you are also engaging in disordered eating practices. Examples include skipping meals, fasting, cutting out whole food groups, dieting repetitively, or using laxatives or diuretics.

    The way I see it, disordered eating “comes from the outside” whereas eating disorders “come from the inside.” What I mean is this: environment plays a huge role in the onset of disordered eating, such that the majority of people who live in our disordered culture (where thinness is overvalued, dieting is the norm, portion sizes are huge, etc) will develop some degree of disordered eating, regardless of their underlying biology or psychopathology.


    and disordered eating:

    In contrast, the development of an eating disorder is influenced very heavily by genetics, neurobiology, individual personality traits, and co-morbid disorders. Environment clearly plays a role in the development of eating disorders, but environment alone is not sufficient to cause them. The majority of American women will develop disordered eating at some point, but less than 1% will fall into anorexia nervosa and 3% into bulimia nervosa.

    Eating disorders existed before thin was in, and they will probably exist after Size Zero seems as antiquated and misguided as chastity belts and foot binding.  The cultural language of fat and thin and dieting are what we have to put our experience into words.  They are how we frame what is happening to us.  People in the Middle Ages framed anorexia has an effort to be more spiritual.  Now, we look at it as an effort to be thinner or look like some supermodel.  But the way we make sense of an illness is different than the illness itself.


    http://blogs.psychcentral.com/weightless/2010/10/why-the-media-isnt-to-blame-for-eating-disorders/

    http://www.blog.drsarahravin.com/eating-disorders/well-always-have-fiji/
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #243 - February 21, 2012, 08:34 PM

    so in this case the eating disorder is environmental whereas disordered eating is more to do with your insides?

    Interesting info by the way, didn't realise there was some difference between the 2, but it would actually make sense.

    See, an eating disorder clinic is assigned to you on the NHS if you have disordered eating it would be appear, not an eating disorder.  environmental is tackled differently from actual anorexia.

    Now I understand why I exist in a limbo land with the NHS clinic, they don't apply a break between the 2, ONLY deal with the disordered eating, and diagnose eating disorders as other conditions. 

    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #244 - February 21, 2012, 08:38 PM

    ^^ I mean the other way round.  banghead

    NHS = eating disorder

    disordered eating = different mental diagnosis.

    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #245 - February 21, 2012, 08:56 PM

    Yeah, the way the author of what I posted above puts it is that eating disorder is a rare but very serious psycho-pathological condition (the parent in the article above equates her daughter’s eating to jumping out of an airplane - [My husband] Jamie and I are crying now too, as we understand for the first time exactly how courageous our daughter is. Each time she lifts the spoon to her lips, her whole body shaking, she is jumping out of a plane at thirty thousand feet. Without a parachute.)

    Eating disorders on the other hand are a lot more common, a lot less dangerous and much more environmentally driven.

    Therefore it would make sense that what Fiji experienced was a rise primarily in eating disorders as a result of changing societal conditions.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #246 - February 21, 2012, 10:34 PM

    Perhaps the problem with our discussion is wording. Contribution is a better term IMO than responsibility and blame.

    I think most people here are arguing that the media contributes to the problem.

    My point was; what contributes to our decisions are multifaceted, involving environmental, stimulatory and genetic factors.

    Fair nuff. I agree with that. I suppose the best way of phrasing my point would be to say that I think it is not a good thing when people attempt to place all blame on external factors and none on themselves. The term "responsibility" does tend to become loaded like this. Not taking any responsibility yourself isn't going to do you any favours.


    Quote
    I disagree. Acknowledging that subliminal influences and social environment effects our decision making processes is a very important part of helping to heal psychological issues.

    For example; If someone has a drug addiction, staying in the same drug taking circle of friends is a fucking bad idea. And often accountability, and a social support structure is crucial to change. Changing the influence of stimulus and environment is crucial to making better decisions.

    Sure but first you need the individual awareness to be able to do all of that. For example, with subliminal influences it is often possible to become aware of them, and that tends to diminish their power. I've done this for fun with advertising surveys in shopping malls. If a market researcher asks me to watch an ad and give my opinion on  it, I'll friggin de-construct the thing down to it's bare bones. Funnily enough this never seems to be the opinion they were looking for but hey, they did ask. Grin

    I wasn't trained to do this either. I'm just naturally a smartarse, and I realise that (major newsflash here) advertising contains bullshit and attempts to manipulate.


    Quote
    IME and IMO acting as if our will is in supreme control of consciousness invites unrealistic expectations, poor planning and unnecessary guilt.

    If I try really hard, I'll change X about myself. Regardless of what stimulus and environment I'm exposed to.

    If I can't change X about myself, it's due to my failure of exercising will.

    Oh sure, that is a danger and is not beneficial. OTOH, people who do try to change are more likely to change than those who never bother to try. It's a balancing act.

    ETA: My opinion, FWIW, is that it's still useful to have the awareness that, at some level and for whatever reason, I am doing this to myself (whatever "this" happens to be). We're in danger of getting into "my anecdote is better than your anecdote" but IME and IMO this awareness is valid and powerful.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #247 - February 21, 2012, 10:36 PM

    Ok, maybe it isn't the core problem, or maybe it is......

    Pre-media = no real issues

    Post media = rise in eating disorders.

    Why is that?  just an Island full of women just waiting for a trigger?

    Maybe. OTOH, how much do you know about the traditional body type in some Polynesian societies? To put it bluntly, they are fat. Obesity is actually a major health problem in such societies.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #248 - February 21, 2012, 10:43 PM

    Yeah, the way the author of what I posted above puts it is that eating disorder is a rare but very serious psycho-pathological condition (the parent in the article above equates her daughter’s eating to jumping out of an airplane - [My husband] Jamie and I are crying now too, as we understand for the first time exactly how courageous our daughter is. Each time she lifts the spoon to her lips, her whole body shaking, she is jumping out of a plane at thirty thousand feet. Without a parachute.)

    Eating disorders on the other hand are a lot more common, a lot less dangerous and much more environmentally driven.

    Therefore it would make sense that what Fiji experienced was a rise primarily in eating disorders as a result of changing societal conditions.


    Oh no, I understand.  I have experienced that, whilst crying as if I am being forced where every mouthful causes rising panic and anxiety which only adds to the shaking.  Times like that I used to give up and throw the food away.

    Thing is though I think disordered eating has the potential to become eating disorders if that is an example of someone with an actual eating disorder. 


    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #249 - February 21, 2012, 10:49 PM

    Maybe. OTOH, how much do you know about the traditional body type in some Polynesian societies? To put it bluntly, they are fat. Obesity is actually a major health problem in such societies.


    so what, they might have had binge eating problems before being introduced to another ideal for an ED to follow?

    Could be.

    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #250 - February 21, 2012, 10:54 PM

    They might have had their minds controlled by the space lizards too. Might have might have might have. Tongue

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #251 - February 21, 2012, 10:55 PM

    Homosexual space lizards, surely?   cool2

    "I came into the world imbued with the will to find a meaning in things, my spirit filled with the desire to attain to the source of the world, and then I found that I was an object in the midst of other objects" - Fanon
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #252 - February 21, 2012, 11:00 PM

    Of course. All the best eating disorders are controlled by homosexuals. Everyone knows that. yes

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #253 - February 22, 2012, 12:03 AM

    Therefore it would make sense that what Fiji experienced was a rise primarily in eating disorders as a result of changing societal conditions.


    Are you saying that the biggest change in societal conditions was the fact that they stated to watch television.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #254 - February 22, 2012, 12:54 AM

    In that case, an obvious question is "Why not select for androgynous faces too?"


    But they do select for androgynous faces.

    >>>>Fashion has always played with androgyny, but lately it has taken a provocative step onto center stage. Remember when Balenciaga sent a bevy of androgynous-looking models, including the fierce Jana K., down the Spring '11 runway? Since then, we've seen Lea T. smooching Kate Moss on the Love cover, a major moment for the transsexual model who made her debut as the Givenchy muse. Jean Paul Gaultier's Spring '11 ad features Karolina Kurkova leaning in for a kiss with a beautiful blonde that looks like a girl, but it's delicate-looking male model Andrej Pejic. These models are blurring the lines of sexuality and the fashion industry is loving it.<<<<

     http://www.fabsugar.com/Fashions-Latest-Fixation-Androgyny-2011-01-27-030204-13471655

    http://fabricmag.com/fabric-magazine-fashion/10-androgynous-models-we-love/

    Fashion is the only female body for hire industry that has a call for androgynous looks. tap in androgynous/androgyny into google and models, fashion, clothing will be amongst the top of the lists. Plus once you have a body that can be termed androgynous, (not looking like a woman) then the make up of the face can turn a feminine look to an androgynous one.

    Just tap in 'androgyny fashion' and you will see a couple of over two million of images of men and female models.  Tap in 'androgyny' on its own and you have a return half that. Perhaps this is not so telling.

    Are you trying to say that if my theory can only hold water if there were to be to be 100per cent androgynous models. Well, they would be versatile.

    (More musings - ever thought that some beautiful men and women would look just as good in the opposite gender)

    Quote
    A next obvious question is "Do these designers show any marked preference for young boys when choosing sexual partners?"


    Like as if they are going to advertise that fact! Lol

    One interesting snippet of information I read about rent-boys was that they tend to start earlier (early teens) than their counterparts, call girls, plus their career is over by their early/mid twenties.

    Quote
    Another question would be "Given that the trend towards near-anorexic models has only occurred over the last couple of decades, and given that gay men have been in the fashion industry all along, what has caused the change in models?"


    Interestingly, the near-anorexic, skinny models have made appearances throughout the 20th century. Starting with Coco Channel and the fapper dress which promoted a boyish look. Yes Coco Chanel was a woman but here are strong rumours that she was bisexual and bedded the gay designers lol. Btw ephebophilia denotes, some say attraction to 14-16 year old girls, they are usually skinny than not at this age. And who knows like a lot of things in life it could have been started by any number of gay designers working for her, with her taking the credit. Then there was Twiggy. But you are right, a unbroken push for skinny models is relatively recent. Perhaps the fact that until 1973 homosexuality was still termed a mental disorder hs a part to play. After this date it would have been easier to be more open but I suspect it took a good few years before they could practise fashion with gay abandon.

    Please remember that heterosexual image media is just as damaging in terms of numbers so I am not being homophobic. But the push from the fashion world for skinnier models is more extreme. It further skews the skinny look.  Coming back to percentages of gays, a recent study says 3.8 per cent of Americans are gay, bisexual or trangendered

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/07/study-says-38-per-cent-of-americans-are-gay-bisexual-or-transgender/

    Here - Stonewall and the UK Government work on a figure of 6per cent.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #255 - February 22, 2012, 01:09 AM

    Being a victim is intensely debilitating. As long as you assign power to external factors you are taking it away from yourself. Fuck the media. It throws all sorts of shit at me too, but I'm not obliged to take any notice.


    You are a fifty odd year old dude, not an impressionable young girl or boy.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #256 - February 22, 2012, 01:17 AM

    Ok, but that's still relying on a universal human trait that is seen under other systems too.

    ETA: Meaning that although the desire for Botox (just to pick a random example) may be specific to certain societies, it's still prompted by the same things that motivate people in other societies: increased social status, greater success in getting a mate, blah blah blah. It's just that in other societies people see other things as providing the means to those ends, and that frequently the means are just as daft and counter-productive. It's not all down to "the media" and capitalism.



    Good point but I would say that the media and capitalism preys on the evolutionary traits of humans. It exacerbates the situation.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #257 - February 22, 2012, 01:23 AM

    But they do select for androgynous faces.

    >>>>Fashion has always played with androgyny, but lately it has taken a provocative step onto center stage. Remember when Balenciaga sent a bevy of androgynous-looking models, including the fierce Jana K., down the Spring '11 runway? Since then, we've seen Lea T. smooching Kate Moss on the Love cover, a major moment for the transsexual model who made her debut as the Givenchy muse. Jean Paul Gaultier's Spring '11 ad features Karolina Kurkova leaning in for a kiss with a beautiful blonde that looks like a girl, but it's delicate-looking male model Andrej Pejic. These models are blurring the lines of sexuality and the fashion industry is loving it.<<<<

    <snip>

    Are you trying to say that if my theory can only hold water if there were to be to be 100per cent androgynous models. Well, they would be versatile.

    Yes, I know there are some androgynous models. Never said there weren't. However, there doesn't seem to be a strong selection pressure for them. For example, googling "Jana K" turns up this model as well as Jana Knauerova. IOW, it doesn't seem to matter much if models have androgynous faces or not, and therefore it seems reasonable to conclude that trying to make them look like boys is not an overriding concern for designers.


    Quote
    Like as if they are going to advertise that fact! Lol

    No, they would not advertise if they were paedophiles, but you can get a good idea of their actual preferences from the lovers they do choose. If the lovers they do choose seem to indicate some tendency towards paedophilia then you may have a case. Otherwise, you don't. You can't just blithely assume they must be paedophiles just because they're gay.


    Quote
    Interestingly, the near-anorexic, skinny models have made appearances throughout the 20th century. Starting with Coco Channel and the fapper dress which promoted a boyish look.

    That's "flapper". Freudian slip on your part, by the look of it. Grin


    Quote
    Yes Coco Chanel was a woman but here are strong rumours that she was bisexual and bedded the gay designers lol.

    Therefore she must have been a paedophile with a fetish for anorexics. Ok. I see the purity of your logic. Tongue

    Quote
    Btw ephebophilia denotes, some say attraction to 14-16 year old girls, they are usually skinny than not at this age.

    Ha. First, who is the "some" in "some say"? Also, take a wider look around. Some 14-16 year olds are skinny and some aren't. It depends on their genes.


    Quote
    And who knows like a lot of things in life it could have been started by any number of gay designers working for her, with her taking the credit.

    Teh space lizards is behind it. I don't need proof. I haz assertions. yes


    Quote
    Then there was Twiggy. But you are right, a unbroken push for skinny models is relatively recent. Perhaps the fact that until 1973 homosexuality was still termed a mental disorder hs a part to play. After this date it would have been easier to be more open but I suspect it took a good few years before they could practise fashion with gay abandon.

    So what happened with Cindy Crawford and Claudia Schiffer (just to take two random examples)? Did they all suddenly go straight for a while or what?


    Quote
    Please remember that heterosexual image media is just as damaging in terms of numbers so I am not being homophobic.

    Actually, I think you are. Not vehemently or maliciously homophobic, but your posts do give the general impression that you are overly concerned that somebody might insert something into your bottom. While this might be startling if it did occur, I put it to you that in reality it is not something to get worked up about.


    Quote
    But the push from the fashion world for skinnier models is more extreme. It further skews the skinny look.  Coming back to percentages of gays, a recent study says 3.8 per cent of Americans are gay, bisexual or trangendered

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/07/study-says-38-per-cent-of-americans-are-gay-bisexual-or-transgender/

    Here - Stonewall and the UK Government work on a figure of 6per cent.

    You are misquoting the article. What is says is that in the US, 3.8% of people are prepared to openly identify as LBGT. That is not the same as saying that 3.8% of people are LBGT.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #258 - February 22, 2012, 01:25 AM

    You are a fifty odd year old dude, not an impressionable young girl or boy.

    I have always been aware that advertising contains bullshit and attempts to manipulate. It's not something that suddenly occurred to me when I turned fifty.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #259 - February 22, 2012, 01:56 AM

    Yes, I know there are some androgynous models. Never said there weren't. However, there doesn't seem to be a strong selection pressure for them. For example, googling "Jana K" turns up this model as well as Jana Knauerova. IOW, it doesn't seem to matter much if models have androgynous faces or not, and therefore it seems reasonable to conclude that trying to make them look like boys is not an overriding concern for designers.


    Both jana K and jana Knauerova look androgynous. I also said that most of the non-androgynous looking ones can be amde to look androgynous if required by make up - they already possess androgynous bodies.

    Quote
    No, they would not advertise if they were paedophiles, but you can get a good idea of their actual preferences from the lovers they do choose. If the lovers they do choose seem to indicate some tendency towards paedophilia then you may have a case. Otherwise, you don't. You can't just blithely assume they must be paedophiles just because they're gay.


    You keep saying peadophilia, it is a very emotive word, I'm an asserting there is a tendency for ephebophilia - from wiki  >>>>>In sexual ethics, it may be defined as a sexual preference for girls generally 14–16 years old, and boys generally 14–19 years old.[3] Some authors define ephebophilia as a sexual preference for pubescent and adolescent boys <<<<< - not prepubescent - which is what peadophilia is. And this is not especially because they are gay, it affects the straight population because imo we are evolutionary wired to like nascently fertile humans. Obviously laws, customs, morals play their part dampening this aspect of our sexuality. It is still something they would not advertise. The rent boy anecdote imo implies that gay seekers of paid for sex like them younger in general.

    Quote
    Therefore she must have been a paedophile with a fetish for anorexics. Ok. I see the purity of your logic. Tongue


    No she was the first to promote the boyish look. For someone who led a very creative, colourful sexual life, it is reasonable to assume that her sexuality may have played a part. Though admittedly I did not need to bring that to the table.

    Quote
    Ha. First, who is the "some" in "some say"? Also, take a wider look around. Some 14-16 year olds are skinny and some aren't. It depends on their genes.


    See wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia. I did say 'skinnier than not' - and I would presume that in evolutionary terms 14-16 year old girls way back then, were on the skinnier side. It may depend on their eating.

    Quote
    Teh space lizards is behind it. I don't need proof. I haz assertions. yes


    It is not beyond the realms of possibilty that the numerous gay designers working for her could have played a part in promoting the boyish look. History is full of others doing the work and some others taking the credit.

    Quote
    So what happened with Cindy Crawford and Claudia Schiffer (just to take two random examples)? Did they all suddenly go straight for a while or what?


    So you are saying that for my theory to hold water all models must be anorexic or androgynous.

    Quote
    Actually, I think you are. Not vehemently or maliciously homophobic, but your posts do give the general impression that you are overly concerned that somebody might insert something into your bottom. While this might be startling if it did occur, I put it to you that in reality it is not something to get worked up about.


    Think what you like lol.

    Quote
    You are misquoting the article. What is says is that in the US, 3.8% of people are prepared to openly identify as LBGT. That is not the same as saying that 3.8% of people are LBGT.


    Double it, triple it, still just over ten per cent of the population. And her in the UK, Stonewall, a champion for gay rights, a body interested in boosting the numbers of LBGT works on a figure of six per cent.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #260 - February 22, 2012, 02:11 AM

    Both jana K and jana Knauerova look androgynous.

    I disagree. IMO the former does not.


    Quote
    You keep saying peadophilia, it is a very emotive word, I'm an asserting there is a tendency for ephebophilia - from wiki  >>>>>In sexual ethics, it may be defined as a sexual preference for girls generally 14?16 years old, and boys generally 14?19 years old.[3] Some authors define ephebophilia as a sexual preference for pubescent and adolescent boys <<<<< - not prepubescent - which is what peadophilia is. And this is not especially because they are gay, it affects the straight population because imo we are evolutionary wired to like nascently fertile humans. Obviously laws, customs, morals play their part dampening this aspect of our sexuality. It is still something they would not advertise. The rent boy anecdote imo implies that gay seekers of paid for sex like them younger in general.

    You should still check out who they choose for their own lovers and compare that against your assumptions.

    The rent boy anecdote is just that: an anecdote. There are a lot of adolescent female prostitutes too.


    Quote
    See wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia. I did say 'skinnier than not' - and I would presume that in evolutionary terms 14-16 year old girls way back then, were on the skinnier side.

    Assuming seems to be your forte. grin12


    Quote
    It is not beyond the realms of possibilty that the numerous gay designers working for her could have played a part in promoting the boyish look.

    No, it is not beyond the realms of possibility. OTOH, you have presented absolutely zero evidence to support your claim.

    It could just as easily have been down to fashion's desire to do something different, given the Victorian and Edwardian styles that directly preceded the 20's.


    Quote
    So you are saying that for my theory to hold water all models must be anorexic or androgynous.

    No. I'm saying that if non-androgynous models are common then there appears to be no strong desire to have them look like boys.

    There are a lot of reports about models being told to lose weight and thin down if they want to get work. However, as far as I am aware there are no corresponding reports of models being told they need to look more like boys to get work. There are also quite a lot of models who don't look like boys and still get plenty of work.


    Quote
    Double it, triple it, still just over ten per cent of the population. And her in the UK, Stonewall, a champion for gay rights, a body interested in boosting the numbers of LBGT works on a figure of six per cent.

    Ok. Is your point that not everyone is LBGT?  parrot

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #261 - February 22, 2012, 07:01 PM

    OTOH, people who do try to change are more likely to change than those who never bother to try. It's a balancing act.


    This is my last reply - I'm tired of you strawmanning me.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #262 - February 22, 2012, 08:54 PM

    Eh wot?

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #263 - February 23, 2012, 01:39 AM

    I disagree. IMO the former does not.


    I see. Guess which one gets all the work lol. My point is that both can be made to look androgynous, with some make up. One is easier to make androgynous than the other. If you google the top twenty or so models, about 15 I'd guess have images of them androgynous in the last year. The important point is that the bodies of many catwalk models are androgynous. The face can be painted androgynous.

    Quote
    You should still check out who they choose for their own lovers and compare that against your assumptions.


    I took your advice and I did.

    http://www.queerty.com/four-gay-fashion-designers-and-their-boy-toy-boyfriends-20120210/

    What was pertinent to my argument is Karl Lagerfeld's comment about his boy toy boyfriend ->>>>> He’s been connected to his “muse,” 23-year-old Baptiste Giabiconi, whom he described as a boy version of Gisele Bündchen: “skinny, skinny but with an athletic body—good for clothes.”<<<<<<

    He sorts makes my point. Good adjective 'muse' creative people need them and/or drugs. And Calvin Klein (him of 'pushing peadophilia' fame) is in there with his much much younger partner. So there must be an aspect of this playing into the choices of catwalk models. I daresay some gay designers have 'butch' boyfriends, it would be good to have evidence. Just a thought do you think partner choice is different if they fancy being bummer or bummee? Law of averages would say not many are not faithful.

    Quote
    The rent boy anecdote is just that: an anecdote. There are a lot of adolescent female prostitutes too.


    It's not just an anecdote

    >>>>'This is a huge business, growing in size and in seriousness all the time,' she said. 'The boys are getting younger<<<< Barnados policy officer TinK Palmer

    >>>>Palmer has found that the average age of boys involved in prostitution is younger than that of girls. 'The age at which they first become involved tends to be younger too,' she said.<<<<

    >>>>The heightened value of youth in the male sex scene means that boys find themselves in hot demand. (is this homophobic?) 'One of the biggest problems is that boys seem to reach a sell-by date by their twenties,' said Palmer. <<<<

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/dec/09/socialsciences.highereducation

    I don't know how relevant this info is but the median age for first time conviction of paedophilia is 30 years for homosexuals and 34 years for heterosexuals.

    Quote
    Assuming seems to be your forte. grin12


    What assuming that in evolutionary terms, when possibly may have spent the most time resembling chimpanzee/bonobo-like, we wouldn't have been anything but skinny. You seen many fat chimps  in the wild. A hip-to-waist ratio which is quite slim seems to the optimum fertility our ancestors strived for. Whether curvy or skinny. It is reasonable to assume that 14-16 were skinnier than not. I wouldn't say that there were many curvy 14-16 year old in hunter-gatherer society.

    Quote
    No, it is not beyond the realms of possibility. OTOH, you have presented absolutely zero evidence to support your claim.


    Yeah, it's circumstantial. But it is possible that gay designers could have influenced her thinking and if she was indeed bisexual, perhaps at times they had the same track mind. At this time most gay designers would have been in the closet.

    Quote
    It could just as easily have been down to fashion's desire to do something different, given the Victorian and Edwardian styles that directly preceded the 20's.


    Indeed it may have been an change from the stuffy Victorian era, but upon further reading it transpires that the roaring twenties were a time when as noted>>>> In Vice Versa: Bisexuality and the Eroticism of Everyday Life, Marjorie Garber argues "the twenties has been linked to the popularization of Freud (or "Freudianism"), the advent of World War I, and a general predilection for the daring and unconventional: bobbed hair, short skirts, the rejection of Prohibition and Victorian strictures<<<<

    Popularisation of Freud - sexualisation (and drugs)lol. It seems this was a time of freeing of sexual mores, gay abandon. You asked me for evidence for androgyny/skinny in history because there have been gay designers in history, I give you evidence and suddenly it's not because of gay/bisexual designers it is something else -  For instance after depression (30's), war (40's), curvy models(50's) came Twiggy who was a sensation why because >>>She was 5'6" tall (short for a model), weighed 8 stone (51 kg, 110 lbs) and had a 31-23-32 figure, "with a new kind of streamlined, androgynous sex appeal.<<<<. Oh the designers must have loved her. Or was this something to do with the sixties 'free love' era. The eighties saw a more a conservative culture and with the rise of Aids i suppose the light of gays/bisexuals dimmed. And lo and behold the skinny/androgynous models were out of fashion too. But now we are on a good unbroken stretch of skinny models.

    Quote
    No. I'm saying that if non-androgynous models are common then there appears to be no strong desire to have them look like boys.


    They might be common but they are not in as much demand. They are not cutting edge.

    Quote
    There are a lot of reports about models being told to lose weight and thin down if they want to get work. However, as far as I am aware there are no corresponding reports of models being told they need to look more like boys to get work. There are also quite a lot of models who don't look like boys and still get plenty of work.


    Again they don't necessarily have to have a boys face, it can be painted on - something caught my eye to back up my musing that of some beautiful men and women looking the same - this article poses that two models, the falvour of the month Andrej Pejic and some model called Julia Nobis look androgynously similar.

    http://www.modelinia.com/blog/doppelganger-alert-the-striking-resemblance-between-julia-nobis-and-andrej-pejic/35260

    Quote
    Ok. Is your point that not everyone is LBGT?  parrot


    Would you agree that the LGBT community makes up close to one in fifteen to twenty people. Just the mitigating circumstance as to why perhaps the over-representation of gays in the field of fashion design may play a part in the difference between other 'female bodies for hire' industries.

    So androgyny hot, having a androgynous face is a bonus. Fashion designers are known to have young lovers (any younger - what would the papers say) and some can equate models to their boyfriends. . And skinny models make an appearance when sexual freedom is the atmosphere that gay designers can work under.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #264 - February 23, 2012, 02:00 AM

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-42749645/how-prada-and-vogue-use-child-porn-to-normalize-anorexia/

    >>>>Disturbing new fashion shoots for Prada, Marc Jacobs, Miu Miu and French Vogue suggest that the fashion business believes laws prohibiting child pornography somehow do not apply to it. While the ads are not overtly pornographic, they each display children, some as young as 10, dressed as adults, in adult situations. Two of the shoots -- for Prada and Vogue -- are overtly sexual. The Vogue spread shows 10-year-old Thylane Lena-Rose Blondeau (pictured) topless in one shot and wearing lipstick in another.<<<<

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #265 - February 23, 2012, 02:06 AM

    Provocative Poses: The inappropriate sexualisation of child model Thylane Loubry Blondeau


    But then a Vogue poses a 10-year-old in this manner and suddenly people start showing concern for these children. The images are disturbing but the important point here is that the practice they represent is also disturbing.The camera is not the culprit here; the photographers, make-up artists and fashion editors are responsible for the production of these images. It is not accidental that Thylane Blondeau’s pictures look sexually charged.

    http://intentious.com/2011/08/12/provocative-poses/

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #266 - February 23, 2012, 02:18 AM

    I see. Guess which one gets all the work lol. My point is that both can be made to look androgynous, with some make up.

    Mate, with shave and enough make-up you could make me look androgynous. No, I wont try it. The results would be scary. Trust me. Wink


    Quote
    I took your advice and I did.

    http://www.queerty.com/four-gay-fashion-designers-and-their-boy-toy-boyfriends-20120210/

    What was pertinent to my argument is Karl Lagerfeld's comment about his boy toy boyfriend ->>>>> He?s been connected to his ?muse,? 23-year-old Baptiste Giabiconi, whom he described as a boy version of Gisele B?ndchen: ?skinny, skinny but with an athletic body?good for clothes.?<<<<<<

    Yes, Lagerfeld's comment is very pertinent. Klein's preferences may also be pertinent.

    Jacobs' and Kors' preferences seem to contradict your argument. I'd say out of those four designers you have a fifty percent hit rate at best, going on the evidence available at the moment.


    Quote
    So there must be an aspect of this playing into the choices of catwalk models. I daresay some gay designers have 'butch' boyfriends, it would be good to have evidence.

    It would be better to say there would be an aspect of this with some designers. There's still no evidence that it applies across the board. You have to be careful with extrapolations.


    Quote
    It's not just an anecdote

    >>>>'This is a huge business, growing in size and in seriousness all the time,' she said. 'The boys are getting younger<<<< Barnados policy officer TinK Palmer

    >>>>Palmer has found that the average age of boys involved in prostitution is younger than that of girls. 'The age at which they first become involved tends to be younger too,' she said.<<<<

    >>>>The heightened value of youth in the male sex scene means that boys find themselves in hot demand. (is this homophobic?)

    It's not homophobic if it's true.


    Quote
    What assuming that in evolutionary terms, when possibly may have spent the most time resembling chimpanzee/bonobo-like, we wouldn't have been anything but skinny. You seen many fat chimps  in the wild.

    Humans are not usually sexually attracted to chimpanzees. Since we are talking about the sexual preferences of H. sapiens sapiens, the body types of chimps are not relevant. Neither are the body types of elephants, even though we share a common ancestor with them. You really do need to watch your extrapolations. Some of them are extravagant.


    Quote
    A hip-to-waist ratio which is quite slim seems to the optimum fertility our ancestors strived for. Whether curvy or skinny. It is reasonable to assume that 14-16 were skinnier than not. I wouldn't say that there were many curvy 14-16 year old in hunter-gatherer society.

    A waist to hip ratio is neither slim nor chunky in and of itself. It is simply a ratio and can be the same even with wildly different builds.

    Chimps do not have waist to hip ratios anything like women.

    If you wish to assert that adolescent female hunter-gatherers are skinny, go get some evidence instead of just pulling assertions out of nowhere. You do realise that women have more body fat than men, right? Do you know what steatopygia is? Have you seen the stone age fertility figures that have been found in excavations of hunter-gatherer societies?


    Quote
    Would you agree that the LGBT community makes up close to one in fifteen to twenty people.

    IIRC, the usual estimate is around one in ten for predominantly homosexual (either female or male), and higher when including all LBGT people. So no, why would I agree to one in fifteen or twenty?

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #267 - February 24, 2012, 01:09 AM

    Mate, with shave and enough make-up you could make me look androgynous. No, I wont try it. The results would be scary. Trust me. Wink


    Lol, I omitted to include hair, plus just a couple brushstrokes of summat. My point is that it far easier if you possess an androgynous (unfeminine)body to achieve that look.  There is selection pressure for this type of body. Androgynous models were in fashion last year, it maybe one of those cyclical fads, but I think we will be seeing a lot more males walk down the catwalk in female fashion in the next few years. Karl Lagerfelds comment says it all. I'm not saying that views like his are dominant in the gay fashion world just that his views in action pushes boundaries and others follow. The models that get work who are androgynous get the most work and are used by the best designers. Other models sure exist but possibly service the needs of the heterosexual market for female bodies for hire.

    What is the position of the 'true' bisexuals in all of this? I know there are bisexual designers, both women and men, surely their ultimate fantasy would be the best threesome with the perfect female and perfect male - I can't speak for one, but I wouldn't be surprised if for a majority of bisexuals they were both young and beautiful, like Julia Nobis and Andrej link a few posts before, two specimens that lookish the same save for the action bits.

    Quote
    Jacobs' and Kors' preferences seem to contradict your argument. I'd say out of those four designers you have a fifty percent hit rate at best, going on the evidence available at the moment.


    As it is under a heading of designers and their 'boy-toy' lovers, I presume they are all well younger than the designer in question. Pointing to a love a youth, and for these creative usually 'flawed' geniuses of fabric, working in rarefied atmosphere, possibly cocaine-fuelled it's not much of a hop, skip and jump away from having your age-radar being a bit blurred in your old age. For which Fashion is known to indulge, to push boundaries, under artistic license lol.

    Quote
    It would be better to say there would be an aspect of this with some designers. There's still no evidence that it applies across the board. You have to be careful with extrapolations.


    Indeed, the ones calling the shots.

    Quote
    Humans are not usually sexually attracted to chimpanzees. Since we are talking about the sexual preferences of H. sapiens sapiens, the body types of chimps are not relevant. Neither are the body types of elephants, even though we share a common ancestor with them. You really do need to watch your extrapolations. Some of them are extravagant. A waist to hip ratio is neither slim nor chunky in and of itself. It is simply a ratio and can be the same even with wildly different builds. Chimps do not have waist to hip ratios anything like women. If you wish to assert that adolescent female hunter-gatherers are skinny, go get some evidence instead of just pulling assertions out of nowhere. You do realise that women have more body fat than men, right? Do you know what steatopygia is? Have you seen the stone age fertility figures that have been found in excavations of hunter-gatherer societies?


    Lol, yes that one was very extravagant<doh> Mixed my sexual (physical)attraction for sex drive, forgive me. But hunter gatherer society existed for a couple of million of years, including all/most of the Homo genus, I suspect this era plays most part in our nature.

    Steatopygia? back to the drawing board with that string of thought for me  lol. Still it doesn't seem to be in fashion anymore on the catwalks.

    Quote
    IIRC, the usual estimate is around one in ten for predominantly homosexual (either female or male), and higher when including all LBGT people. So no, why would I agree to one in fifteen or twenty?


    Here in the UK, Stonewall are happy with six per cent for the LGBT community, I believe if they truly thought there were more they would have said so. So in the UK, 6 per cent is closer to one in twenty than one in fifteen.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #268 - February 24, 2012, 01:22 AM

    Lol, yes that one was very extravagant<doh> Mixed my sexual (physical)attraction for sex drive, forgive me. But hunter gatherer society existed for a couple of million of years, including all/most of the Homo genus, I suspect this era plays most part in our nature.

    Yes, it plays a part, but that does not mean that body shapes seen in modern chimps are relevant to the body shapes modern humans find attractive.


    Quote
    Steatopygia? back to the drawing board with that string of thought for me  lol. Still it doesn't seem to be in fashion anymore on the catwalks.

    However it is very popular in some hunter-gatherer societies. You were opining about hunter-gatherer societies, yes?


    Quote
    Here in the UK, Stonewall are happy with six per cent for the LGBT community, I believe if they truly thought there were more they would have said so. So in the UK, 6 per cent is closer to one in twenty than one in fifteen.

    Well, no. Six percent is actually closer to one in fifteen, and very close to one in sixteen.

    If you think your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
  • Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
     Reply #269 - February 24, 2012, 01:25 AM

    Is it possible to see this through a different angle. I am not sure if it works though, can't think like a bisexual lol. Say it was rampant chemical-filled heterosexuals who were at the pinnacle of the fashion world. Then say they were using men as models to sell clothes to women. How long before there would be a cavalcade of shemale(ish)men strutting their stuff down the catwalk?

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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