Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Today at 12:05 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 14, 2024, 05:54 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

What's happened to the fo...
April 11, 2024, 01:00 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM

Gaza assault
January 27, 2024, 01:08 PM

Nawal El Saadawi: Egypt's...
January 27, 2024, 12:24 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Kalam Argument

 (Read 20682 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #90 - November 21, 2011, 07:57 PM

    TBH I can't see why some people make a fuss over this kalam argument. I mean has anyone ever been able to produce an ironclad proof that "whatever begins to exist has a cause"? I can't see how such a proof would even be possible in principle.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #91 - November 21, 2011, 09:01 PM

    When saying "Universe" in context of the Kalam it means "everything that exists" simply because

    1: We have not yet observed evidence of the existence outside of our visible universe.
    2: The Kalam essentially states that if we pose a multiverse we are simply deferring our explanation back a single level to "Who" created the multiverse?




    If energy can't be created or destroyed, isn't energy infinite?

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #92 - November 22, 2011, 04:12 PM

    Eternal is the word. Yeah, isn't it?  Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #93 - November 22, 2011, 06:43 PM

    If energy can't be created or destroyed, isn't energy infinite?


    Energy dissipates into different states. The total energy of the universe we can say is zero. Technically it is not infinite, but this would require a long explanation, and a whole new debate on is the universe infinite or finite etc.   
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #94 - December 17, 2011, 11:32 AM

    Quick question please. 

    In layman terms:

    How can an infinite regress of events take place if each event is contingent? Wouldn't today's events of happend an infinity of time ago?

    What is actualy wrong with postulating a first cause, because would we not go on asking 'what is the cause of this' etc
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #95 - December 20, 2011, 03:59 PM

    Quote
    What is actualy wrong with postulating a first cause, because would we not go on asking 'what is the cause of this' etc


    Very good question, and one of the reasons I find Kalam argument inane.

    P1. An actual infinite cannot exist.
    P2. An actual infinite God cannot exist.
    C. Therefore, God began to exist, or God does not exist.

    Of course Craig would attempt to slither out by claiming that "God's infinity is qualitative and not quantitative", but it's pure sophistry.



    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #96 - March 12, 2012, 06:45 PM

    Theoreticalbullshit's counter-argument...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRn-mVPIl60&feature=channel
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #97 - April 13, 2012, 08:57 AM

    Thunderf00t's counter-argument...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u6Mz21jTaA
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #98 - April 13, 2012, 06:39 PM

    ^ ^

    Haaaaaah Cheesy, I saw that a while ago Cheesy

  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #99 - May 18, 2012, 07:50 PM

    I guess this Q&A discussion between  Professor Richard Dawkins & that Australian Cardinal George Pell should go here..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPBASH_OAY8

    But I like this Muslim guy riding on that discussion  with that Bismillah alHamdulillah wassalatu wassalamu 'ala Rasulillah

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=dQYjKcsAtG0

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #100 - May 18, 2012, 09:28 PM

    I may have said this before but craig isn't a cosmologist, so has no academic authority or credence to be a public speaker on cosmology. There is not a SINGLE cosmologist who proliferates the kalam cosmological argument ! and how many cosmology conventions has craig spoke at ? how many articles of craig have been published in cosmology journals?

    Would you go to a geologist or a non geologist to learn about geology? if u have a tooth ache do you go to a dentist or william lane craig? People who don't have any basic academic credentials in basic cosmology should not pretend to be public intellectuals on cosmology. Would you for example see stephen weinberg giving a juma or sunday sermon? he would be laughed out of the building, yet people think it's perfectly ok to learn about cosmology from religious demagogues.

    These asinine philosophers have been trying to talk god into existence for thousands of years. Rhetoric and sophistry doesn't prove a single thing !

    my take on kalam based on its four premises :

    1 Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
    2 The universe began to exist.
    3 Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
    4 Since no scientific explanation (in terms of physical laws) can provide a causal account of the origin of the universe, the cause must be personal (explanation is given in terms of a personal agent)


    Premise 1 true, but then what caused the existence of the first existing object ?

    Premise 2 is incorrect, as there's never been a time dicovered so far of a universe not existing or a beginning. We have never been able to observe a 'nothing' in physics terms.

    There is no evidence of a universe not ever having have existed. There's never been a observable 'nothing' in physics terms, so to say 'nothing' can create 'something' is a false dichotomy. It's like me saying flying pink elephants cause rain, we've never witnessed flying pink elephants existing in any format so i or no one else can make the claim that flying pink elephants with wings can cause rain.

    If a person claims a universe has never existed they have to demonstrate 'nothingness' to claim there's been a time without a universe.

    Premise 3 is just an false assertation, based on intution. To observe a universe having a cause we have would have to go outside of a universe to witness what caused it, has anyone on earth ever gone outside the universe?

    Premise 4 is the massive fallacy of the 'argument from ignorance', just becos we don't know the answer to something that doesn't make the first theory on in correct. That's like saying ok we don't know who did this homicide, but i have a random theory that john down the road did it, so becos we don't know who did that means john did it.

    basically this kalam bulls**t is just a polished god of the gaps theory used by hucksters
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #101 - May 18, 2012, 09:32 PM

    Premise 1 true.........

    Prove it. Go on. Dare ya. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #102 - May 18, 2012, 09:55 PM

    well every living object that's been observed came into existence thought causation.

    You probably already know this, but what we know through evolution where humans came from, what we don't know yet is how the first living concious object gained conciousness, which begs the old age question(that theologians haven't given a suitable answer to yet) that if god created life and everything needs a cause, what caused god to exist ?
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #103 - May 18, 2012, 10:04 PM

    Grin Yeah I figured you'd say something like that. Kalam attempts to be an ultimate, in-principle argument. That's what it has to be to carry any weight. This means that every premise must be supportable in principle and always.

    You can't do it. There is simply no way of showing that the first premise will always be true for every possible case, especially when you are talking about a case which is outside the boundaries of our universe. What we call cause and effect is simply a result of how physics works inside our universe. Even inside our universe, we cannot be sure that it is always true. All we know is that so far we don't seem to have found anything that contradicts it.

    Because of all this, the kalam argument fails on its first premise. It never even gets the chance to get going. It's a dead duck. Kaput. Totally bloody useless. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #104 - May 18, 2012, 11:01 PM

    Os!

    Bollocks! You have to look into the linguistically post-modernistic structuralist understanding of the Kalam cosmological argument and not act like an ignoramus who is denying that there are some crucial and metaphysical support for this teleological (not ontological) argument!



    PWNED, Aussie-boy! Go and have a vegemite sandwich and find the prayer rug.

     Tongue

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #105 - May 18, 2012, 11:04 PM

    Ha. I have a beard too. My beard trumps his. I win. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #106 - June 08, 2012, 10:54 PM

    1.) In a closed system, the properties of the system can be observed, but are un-caused.
    2.) In a closed system, the 2nd Law of SirMoDynamics works, but only there.
    3.) In a closed system, there's no subsystem, which is closed, therefor, there's a number of systems, which are not closed and temporarily suspend the 2nd Law of SirMoDynamics IF THE SYSTEM WERE CLOSED  (see 2).
    4.) In a closed system, there's no place for (a) God(s).

    If a system has properties, there must exist subsystems, which have properties as well, which are not caused by former events. Such an un-caused system of properties can be observed in Nature and is called: radioactivity.  grin12

    It is "in the nature" of an unstable system to "give away" energy. Nothing causes radioactive particles to give away its energy; it is their "natural" property.
    But then again, I'm not William Lane Craig, which means, that I can think beyond the scientific miracles of the Bible and the Quran, which only rarely deal with quantum physics, me thinks.  grin12

    A closed system, which is infinitely dense and a closed system, which is infinitely sparse cannot exist at the same time, for they would create an equilibrium. -1 and +1, two sides of an "extreme" are never reached, because they would create literally Nothing.

    Since there is something, instead of Nothing, neither an infinitely dense, nor an infinitely sparse system could've ever existed simultaneously, but in order for Nothing to exist, they'd have had to. The nothing is represented as the paradoxical value of +/- 0.  Cheesy
    This has never happened before, otherwise, there'd always & never not have been Nothing, therefor it'd have taken infinitely long for Nothing to turn into Everything (Nothing and Everything are just "both sides of Zero").  whistling2

    Since there is Something, said equilibrium was never reached.

    Now the question is, "what is Something?".
    Something is the NATURAL PROPERTY of a system to resist the phase cancellation in a system of "mirror symmetry". If you take (for example) a piece of music and mix it with the same piece of music, while reversing the phase, you are basically taking +1 and "adding" -1 to it............you are left with Nothing = silence.

    Therefor, the Universe can only have had a beginning, if it already had an end.  Huh?
    That's the quantum world. Now that would be determinism. +1 + -1 = The Beginning & The End at the same time = Nothing.

    So what we've learned here is, that we cannot learn anything about Nothing, other, that it cannot exist, for there would always be nothing.

    Now, what if said values of +1 and -1 SLIGHTLY fluctuate? Well, then there is no phase cancellation and you are left with the NOISE of the system.  cool2

    And that's, ladies and gentiles, the background radiation.

    So what I'm trying to say is, that our Universe can be the only one, but wasn't and won't be the only one, ever, for it would've never been in the first place. Yes, we cannot understand that, but quantum particles do.
    Therefore, the Universe is not deterministic.

    It began, when it ended and will always be the same through change.  Tongue

    Or as the famous Master Eckhart once said, after inventing quantum mechanics in the 13th century:
    "God has created a room, he himself cannot enter: it is the room, where he keeps Nothing".  yes

  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #107 - June 08, 2012, 11:01 PM

    Thunderf00t's counter-argument...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u6Mz21jTaA


    Yeah I've seen that its a little old. I've been saying this for years, just because an argument is logically valid it does not make it true, this goes back to Godel's incompleteness theorems. And the whole argument about epistemology. Some arguments can be consisted in logic, but yet still be false in an epistemological sense, this is WHY it is NEVER a good idea to say you can disprove god or prove god, no you're talking out of your ass!
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #108 - June 09, 2012, 12:25 AM

    You can not disprove or prove the concept of a "God", in the deistic sense, but you can certainly disprove the (mono)theistic "God". The "leap of faith" happens between the arguments for the existence of a deistic "God" and the projection of the same principles onto the theistic "God" - this CAN be proven to be wrong and has been (numerous times).
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #109 - June 09, 2012, 07:00 PM

    LArc, yes that is true. Since a monotheistic God has clearly defined attributes which carry internal and external contradictions, they i.e. such a God is logically incompatible, this is still within the framework of Godels proof. 
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #110 - June 09, 2012, 08:43 PM

    You guys need to stop messing around with screenshots of youtube clips.  Everytime I see one I click it a few times. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #111 - January 10, 2015, 09:48 PM

    A good video by Kevin deLaplante on the status of simultaneous causation within physics and philosophy.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAgT_8KtICg&index=6&list=PLCD69C3C29B645CBC


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #112 - January 11, 2015, 10:36 PM


    What is that supposed to be drawing of?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #113 - January 11, 2015, 11:17 PM

    Probably Hamza misunderstanding what infinity (infinities is the better usage in this context, and already the deification of mathematics has become apparent) is, and that it does nothing to bolster his argument for Allah.
    It's ironic that I've run into quite a lot of dawah boys who have studied mathematics (not Hamza though, he doesn't have a clue), but don't understand the first thing about the philosophy of mathematics.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #114 - January 29, 2015, 01:57 PM

    Coincidentally someone in a tweet asked me about this subject recently. My reply was too long for Twitter Smiley

    http://therationaliser.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/whats-wrong-with-kalam-cosmological.html

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #115 - February 01, 2015, 09:28 PM

    For the Conclusion of Kalam to be TRUE ALL the premises have to be TRUE. If any of the the premises are just possibilities or probabilities or disproved then the whole argument falls on it legs.

    The "whatever begins to exists need a cause" is debunked by Quantum Mechanics.

    "The Universe began to exist" is only a possibility. As of yet we don't know about Physics to form a hypothesis to work out if what happened before the Big Bang.
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #116 - February 01, 2015, 11:22 PM

    well let me add two pdf files to this folder...

    Kalam Cosmological Argument

    That is some 100 pages book chapter from William LAME Craig  and some more to that PDF file

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #117 - February 02, 2015, 01:07 AM

    Interesting to note that Muslim Scientists who have PHDs in Cosmology like Salman Hameed and Usama Hasan don't make the Kalam Cosmological Argument as a reason for their belief.
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #118 - February 02, 2015, 09:52 PM

    Usama has a PhD in cosmology?

    Isn't his doctorate in artificial intelligence?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Kalam Argument
     Reply #119 - February 02, 2015, 10:40 PM

    Usama has a PhD in cosmology?

    Isn't his doctorate in artificial intelligence?

    Qtian   How are you doing ..what you are doing now a days??  hope you are doing well.,

     let me give you this..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD2---4QB2Q

    Are you interested in Cosmology? Astrophysics?? Write to Lawrence... Pump some Iron..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »