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 Topic: Need help with an argument.

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  • Need help with an argument.
     OP - September 10, 2011, 04:30 AM

    Some guy i'm debating with claims that there are no verses in the Quran and Hadis that promotes the killing of innocents.

    Can you guys help me to prove him wrong? I've got some ideas, but would rather hear you guys out first.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #1 - September 10, 2011, 06:44 AM

    Some guy i'm debating with  claims that there are no verses in the Quran and Hadis that promotes the killing of innocents.

    Can you guys help me to prove him wrong? I've got some ideas, but would rather hear you guys out first.

    How does he define "Innocents"  dear truth_seeker??

    Does he know how Islam in the last 13 years of Prophet Muhammad's life and next 100 years after his death came to power to conquer everything around Saudi Arabia ??

    Does he know How Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, completely demolishes what was there before  such as ethnic,  religious, economical, social  aspects of the political system.??

    Does he know The word   "dhimmi"  and how it was/is  applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty   to Muslim domination.

    Does he know how Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories from  Africa, Europe to Asia far east Asia over a millennium (638-1683)?? And How Islam does that??


    Does he know Dhimmitude is an entire integrated system  of Islam  based on Islamic theology and cannot be judged from the circumstantial position of any one community, at any  given time and  place.  And Dhimmitude must be appraised according to its laws and customs, irrespectively of circumstances and political contingencies.

    Give him these tubes  if he understands the language..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9xDDAze2UY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPANOqaxLXw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCvHnRi6P8g

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #2 - September 10, 2011, 07:03 AM

    By the way ask your friend to read the Constitution of Hizb ut-Tahrir  http://www.hizbuttahrir.org/  that presents a close political system to that of early Islamic Caliphate all the way to 17 th century Islamic leaders.

    Quote
    In Hizb ut-Tahrir's draft constitution for its unified Islamic state, any non-Muslims living in the state may not serve in any of the ruling offices, such as the position of caliph, nor vote for these officials, as these positions require those who fulfil them to believe in the system.

    Muslims have "the right to participate in the election of the Khaleefah [head of state] and in giving him the pledge (ba'iah). Non-Muslims have no right in this regard." However non-Muslims may voice "complaints in respect to unjust acts performed by the rulers or the misapplication of Islam upon them."

    Hizb ut-Tahrir claims the  rights of Jews and other non-Muslims are enshrined within statuary Islamic Law (Sharia). These were laid down by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he established the first Islamic State in Medina in the 7th century. He said, "Whoever harms a dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen) has harmed me.... Non-Muslims in the khilafah (caliphate) will have established channels to air any grievances or denial of their rights. All citizens will be empowered with the right to speak out where necessary.


    Now any non-Muslims who questions the basics above two posts., in an Islamic state Muslims and Muslims leaders have the  power to put him/her in jail or kill....  And that power is given by ALLAH inIslamic scriptures.  

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #3 - September 10, 2011, 07:12 AM



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiiR29CZqTw


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa8Ds76USy8

     

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #4 - September 10, 2011, 07:13 AM

    9:29 is an unconditional commandment to fight Jews and Christians until they are subdued and concede to Islamic law.

    What are they guilty of.......other than exercising their right to "no compulsion in religion"?
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #5 - September 10, 2011, 07:15 AM

    9:29 is an unconditional commandment to fight Jews and Christians until they are subdued and concede to Islamic law.

     


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNwIBvq27E8

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #6 - September 10, 2011, 09:21 AM

    Moot point, define "innocent".....They could be "mischief makers" or "enemies of Allah" or something.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #7 - September 10, 2011, 12:45 PM

    Some guy i'm debating with claims that there are no verses in the Quran and Hadis that promotes the killing of innocents.

    Can you guys help me to prove him wrong? I've got some ideas, but would rather hear you guys out first.


    Response: There are no verses in the qur'an that promotes the killing of innocents. Islam is a religion of peace and only condones killing in self-defense of someone or others them.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #8 - September 10, 2011, 12:52 PM

    Response: There are no verses in the qur'an that promotes the killing of innocents. Islam is a religion of peace and only condones killing in self-defense of someone or others them.


    Response: Yes there are. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #9 - September 10, 2011, 01:05 PM

    Response: There are no verses in the qur'an that promotes the killing of innocents. Islam is a religion of peace and only condones killing in self-defense of someone or others them.

    How are you doing dear Fatihah.,

    Whether is is the word of a debater with truth_seeker That is
    Quote
    "there are no verses in the Quran and Hadis that promotes the killing of innocents. "

    or your words  they are
    Quote
    Islam only condones killing in self-defense of someone or others them.

    The bottom line is same., Both of the statements come from either brain washed irrational people or they come from some one who got hit on the head and need to be treated for Cerebral Edema.

    Now., Fatihah you have to define   what actually do you mean by "Killing in self defense" and how did Islam during Prophet times and after times did that Killing in self defense?

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #10 - September 10, 2011, 01:20 PM

    Amusing that the claim is alleged that the statemnets stem from brainwashing, yet in your rebuttal you fail to bring about any evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah that romotes the killing of innocents. Thus your own actions support the fact that it is clearly your logic that stems from delusion and brainwashing. Debunked.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #11 - September 10, 2011, 01:22 PM

    Response: Yes there are. Your argument is invalid.


    Response: Another statement with no proof, supporting your delusion.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #12 - September 10, 2011, 01:26 PM

    Amusing that the claim is alleged that the statemnets stem from brainwashing, yet in your rebuttal you fail to bring about any evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah that romotes the killing of innocents. Thus your own actions support the fact that it is clearly your logic that stems from delusion and brainwashing. Debunked.

    sure ..  yes debunked..

    read Quran... go to mosque and watch Mullahs..

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #13 - September 10, 2011, 01:30 PM

    Amusing that the claim is alleged that the statemnets stem from brainwashing, yet in your rebuttal you fail to bring about any evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah that romotes the killing of innocents. Thus your own actions support the fact that it is clearly your logic that stems from delusion and brainwashing. Debunked.


    Respone: You did not put 'Response' at the start of your post. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #14 - September 10, 2011, 01:31 PM

    Response: Another statement with no proof, supporting your delusion.


    Response: Your statement above also has no proof. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #15 - September 10, 2011, 01:35 PM

    Quote

    truth_seeker.. dear truth_seeker., It is good to learn and good to copy smart,  intelligent people., It is no use of copying fools even for heckling..

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #16 - September 10, 2011, 01:38 PM

    sure ..  yes debunked..

    read Quran... go to mosque and watch Mullahs..


    Response: Another failed rebuttal. At least you are consistent.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #17 - September 10, 2011, 01:39 PM

    Response: Your statement above also has no proof. Your argument is invalid.


    Response: Only in the eyes of the delusional. Thanks for clarifying.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #18 - September 10, 2011, 01:41 PM

    Response: Another failed rebuttal. At least you are consistent.

    off course I am consistent  dear Fatihah ? So did you read Quran? do you regularly visit mosque??

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #19 - September 10, 2011, 01:41 PM

    Response: There are no verses in the qur'an that promotes the killing of innocents. Islam is a religion of peace and only condones killing in self-defense of someone or others them.

    do you take hadith ?

    Bukhari, volume 9, #17

    "Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

    one could argue with Qisas.. but the others you can't really argue (small example)

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #20 - September 10, 2011, 01:55 PM

    Quote
    The bottom line is same., Both of the statements come from either brain washed irrational people or they come from some one who got hit on the head and need to be treated for Cerebral Edema.


    Lmao Lmao you are a very good anti-depressant yeez!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #21 - September 10, 2011, 02:03 PM



    Now this guy is for real, he's not delusional because he reads the Quran religiously!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #22 - September 10, 2011, 02:24 PM

    off course I am consistent  dear Fatihah ? So did you read Quran? do you regularly visit mosque??


    Response: The better question is why, in every thread that we partake in, do you continually wish to talk about everything else but the topic of the thread? The reason is obvious. It's the natural reaction of any person who acknowledges their own lack of intelligence on a topic.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #23 - September 10, 2011, 02:32 PM

    Response: Only in the eyes of the delusional. Thanks for clarifying.


    Response: This statement also lacks proof. Your argument is invalid.
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #24 - September 10, 2011, 02:39 PM

    Some guy i'm debating with claims that there are no verses in the Quran and Hadis that promotes the killing of innocents.

    Can you guys help me to prove him wrong? I've got some ideas, but would rather hear you guys out first.


    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

    Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
    Sahih Bukhari 9:84:57

  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #25 - September 10, 2011, 02:40 PM


    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #26 - September 10, 2011, 02:40 PM

    do you take hadith ?

    Bukhari, volume 9, #17

    "Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

    one could argue with Qisas.. but the others you can't really argue (small example)


    Response: The other two can very much be argued and are justified. The hadith itself clearly states that blood "can be" shed, not that blood "should be" shed. That alone demonstrates, that death is not obligatory simply because they revert from islam or have sex outside of marriage. The words acknowledge that there are conditions, supported by the Qur'an and several other hadiths.

    Concerning Apostasy, it is when one who leaves islam becomes violent against muslims or simply embraced islam, only as a strategy of war to destroy muslims from within and utilize their knowledge of muslims against them in war once they leave islam. In this case, it is self-defense, therefore, the killing of the apostate is justified.

    Concerning adultery, the death penalty was prescribed in the torah, not in islam. So it was accustomed by Muhammad (saw) to follow the Torah untill Allah(swt) revealed differently. As any reasonable person will recognize, having sex out of lust is severely, emotionally, devastating, act. Why else does a person feel so devastated after being molested or cheated on? It is because the sexual experience was not an act of love, but one out of lust. As a result, a severe punishment is necessary to prevent sexual activity based on lust, and not out of love. Thus the hadith is justified.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #27 - September 10, 2011, 02:40 PM

    Response: The better question is why, in every thread that we partake in, do you continually wish to talk about everything else but the topic of the thread? The reason is obvious. It's the natural reaction of any person who acknowledges their own lack of intelligence on a topic.

    "Why".. Why.. is a very good question dear Fatihah.,   And it should be asked for every verse and every surah you read in Quarn and same thing goes to every religious scripture that is there on this planet..

    As far as my lack of intelligence on a given subject is concerned. and  How I talk/write  about everything else but the topic of the thread is concerned,  it is possible and you may be right.   There could be very good reason for that,  but that is not a natural reaction.

    Any ways if you don't like to read Quran/hadith/sunnah/early Islamic Sharia laws and early Islamic history., then let us read  "Our distorted intellectual discourse" by dr.  Manzur Ejaz from  DAWN.COM.,

    and.. and let us not forget to watch the tube that is there below that article ..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Freedom of Expression is a Fundamental Right  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #28 - September 10, 2011, 02:42 PM

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

    Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
    Sahih Bukhari 9:84:57




    Response: No where in the entire hadith does it say to kill someone who is innocent. So this proves nothing.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
  • Re: Need help with an argument.
     Reply #29 - September 10, 2011, 02:44 PM

    "Why".. Why.. is a very good question dear Fatihah.,   And it should be asked for every verse and every surah you read in Quarn and same thing goes to every religious scripture that is there on this planet..

    As far as my lack of intelligence on a given subject is concerned. and  How I talk/write  about everything else but the topic of the thread is concerned,  it is possible and you may be right.   There could be very good reason for that,  but that is not a natural reaction.

    Any ways if you don't like to read Quran/hadith/sunnah/early Islamic Sharia laws and early Islamic history., then let us read  "Our distorted intellectual discourse" by dr.  Manzur Ejaz from  DAWN.COM.,

    and.. and let us not forget to watch the tube that is there below that article ..

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Response: None of which demonstrates the killing of innocents in the Qur'an or Sunnah, making your point, pointless.

    Qul Haatoo Burhaanakum in kuntum saadiqeen
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