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 Topic: Riots in London

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  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #390 - August 12, 2011, 03:56 PM

    Jesus.


    Hey, whats up?

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #391 - August 12, 2011, 03:59 PM

    Ma dick.

    But you knew that already. You see all.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #392 - August 12, 2011, 04:08 PM


    One of the best articles I have read in the last week:

    Quote
    The Riots That Will Define My Generation


    This Post is brought to you by Talal Rajab, of The Urbanite

    Having been bought up and raised in North London, right bang in between Tottenham and Enfield, this weekend’s events have left a sour taste in my throat.  Seeing the streets that you call home in disarray, the shops that you visit burnt down and the community that you love given a bad name hurts.  Shop keepers have lost businesses, people have been made homeless and the decades of community work that has gone in around this area has been rendered meaningless within the space of 48 hours by the actions of idiotic thugs.

    What hurts even more, however, is the misinformation and ill-advised comments that I have witnessed on various media platforms and social networking sites over the weekend regarding the trouble in North London.

    From the shotgun reaction from certain sections of the media, who quickly labelled Mark Duggan a ‘gangsta’ who shot at police without waiting for verification of the facts, to the completely idiotic muppets on twitter and Facebook who called for fellow North London residents to ‘rise up against the f***ing feds’, what we have witnessed here is a merry-go round of claims and counter-claims that has finally escalated into the apocalyptic headlines that we see today.  Some of these claims clearly need to be addressed.

    Firstly, we need to let the IPCC get to the bottom of what really happened between Mark Duggan and the police last Thursday.  On the one hand we have accounts that Duggan was a dangerous thug from the media, conveniently fed to them by the police along with this photo of Duggan looking as menacingly as possible, whereas on the other hand we have accounts from people around the area that described ‘starrish Mark’ as a family man and well known member of the community.  At the end of the day none of us know what happened and the endless speculation and rumours have only escalated what must already be a gruesome time for the young man’s family.

    Secondly, social commentators need to cease making comparisons between what happened in the 1980s and what is happening today.  Despite their many failings, of which I shall come to later, the Met have come leaps and bounds over the past decades and are not the same racist force that our parents and grandparents had to put up with.  SUS laws have ended and the institutionalised racism that was described in the Macpherson report has been all but stamped out.

    However, that is not to say that the police are angels.  Young residents in this area continue to hold reservations against the police and trust levels between the youth and the police continue to be at an all-time low, even before the events of last week.  This, however, has little to do with institutionalised racism and more to do with the fact that the police continue to patronise and misunderstand the youth of today.  Put simply, if you dress in a certain manner and talk in a certain way (regardless of your race) you are treated differently by the police and many people on Saturday and Sunday, wrongly I might add, saw this as their chance to ‘get back at the feds’.

    Furthermore, with continued levels of gun and knife crime in the area many youth do not feel adequately protected by the police.  One of the most common statements that I have heard over the weekend from terrified residents is that the police allowed the riots to happen.  Scenes of young people rioting and looting for hours on end in Wood Green without any police intervention lends more weight to their concerns.  I remember being robbed and attacked a number of years ago with CS spray and a hammer by two hooded youths my age and the last thought on my mind was to report the crime for fear that I would then be viewed in suspect terms by the police.  Although I now see this as a mistake, I can understand why many people younger than me hold similar reservations.  The only result of this, however, are more young people ‘tooling up’ for protection and further violent crimes.

    Thirdly, this has nothing to do with multiculturalism or government cuts and any attempt to link the two with events this weekend are nothing but political opportunism, from both the right and the left.

    In regards to multiculturalism, it is clear from the images in Tottenham that this was not just a “black issue”, despite the media predictably rolling out so-called “community leaders” many of whom are apparently leading our community yet we have never even heard of them.  Members of all races were rioting and if anyone knows this area well then they will know that Tottenham is a strong mix of black, white, Polish, Turkish and Jewish communities, many of whom took to the streets on Saturday.

    The scenes in the predominately white area of Enfield should also lay to rest those who are quick to blame multiculturalism for this mess.  Despite this Sky News have continued to roll out a very well spoken and thoughtful black guy (I will not mention his name because I think he actually makes some very good points and it is not his fault) to explain the situation in Tottenham even though he lives in South London!  Multiculturalism, for all it’s failures, does not encourage people to loot and riot and those (mainly right wing commentators) attempting to use this weekend to lament multiculturalism should be ashamed of themselves.

    As should those on the left, such as Ken Livingstone, who have tried to link the riots to the coalition cuts, arguing that they have caused ‘social division’.  This is nonsense.  Many of the kids looting and rioting would probably be unable to name our Deputy Prime Minister, let alone be aware of the effects of spending cuts in the area.  It should also be noted that many of the people rioting are not ‘under-privileged’ and economically poor.  Many tales of the riots in what is relatively the middle class area of Enfield describes seeing well dressed youths escaping with loot in their VW GTI’s.  Today we are hearing rumours of riots in Southgate and Palmers Green – hardly Compton and the Bronx.  To try and simply paint this as ‘poor people’ uprising is lazy and quite typical of some of us on the left who try to blame the coalition for everything and see economic causes when there are none.

    That is not to say that the cuts in this area have not had an effect, as can be seen in this video.  Youth clubs are being closed down, unemployment in the area is rising and local community groups are losing funding.  What we need to ensure, as a community, is that these cuts do not have a detrimental effect in the future and prevent the area from progressing socially.

    Lastly, I cannot overstate the effect that social media has had in encouraging the riots.  Many people have called this the ‘twitter revolution’, but I am afraid that the kids are once again one step ahead of our adult counterparts.  This was not merely a twitter revolution, it was a BBM revolution.  The amount of Blackberry broadcasts, such as this, that were being sent out clearly had an impact, particularly on the riots in Enfield. It seems that the riots on Sunday were clearly planned and organised, but not on the well known platforms like twitter and Facebook which rioters were aware were being monitored by the police.  They were being planned via the Blackberry, which seems like the phone of choice for today’s urban rioter.  This article here explains why.

    So where do we go from here.  Whilst it is too early to tell of the effects that the riots will have on the community here in the future, what is clear in the meantime is that until the police get a quick hold on the situation this will continue and continue.  Shops have already shut early in Southgate and Palmers Green today and the fact that looting spread as far as Brixton last night is further proof that this is unlikely to end anytime soon.  Serious questions also need to be asked of the police inaction in what has been a terrible month for Scotland Yard.  I guess all we can do here is clean up the mess and brace ourselves for further problems in the coming week.  Whilst we do that, however, it would help if outsiders stopped spreading misinformation, for all our sake's.  


    The saddest thing is that whilst our parents fought for noble causes such as equal rights and the end of apartheid our generation fought for Nike trainers and iPads.  This, i am afraid, will define my generation.


    http://iamtheurbanite.blogspot.com/2011/08/riots-that-will-define-my-generation.html





    Thank you for sharing this.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #393 - August 12, 2011, 04:27 PM

    Evidence that Communism creates more problems than it solves, please.


    Just look at <insert almost any Communist country past and present>

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #394 - August 12, 2011, 04:42 PM

    Okay, let's pick out two examples--

    1) Yugoslavia
    2) Soviet Union

    Neither of which were actually even remotely communist, if we are to take Marx's original definition of communism, but for sake of argument we'll say they were.

    I see no evidence that Yugoslavia was, on the whole, worse off under communism than under capitalism. Tito clamped down on inter-ethnic strife, standards of living were high, citizens had free movement in and out of the country and through the various regions of the country, and workers had some level of self-management in industry. Compare that with the inter-ethnic warring fascist-sympathizing elements running the country (and its constituent parts) before and after Tito and communism ain't lookin so bad there by comparison you ask me.

    Nor do I see that the Soviet Union (apart from Stalin's reign) was worse off under communism than under the Tsar, and I would argue that capitalist restoration in Russia has made things worse-- still an authoritarian government but higher crime rates, high rates of poverty, joblessness and homelessness (which was practically non-existent under communism), a number of far-right groups engaging in racist attacks against minorities, and much higher incarceration rates than under communism.

    How am I wrong?

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #395 - August 12, 2011, 04:52 PM

    Yugoslavia is probably the most benign example of Communism in action, so I won't argue that one. But Communism in Russia - and I'm afraid you can't exclude Stalin - has certainly caused massive injustices and restrictions on freedoms and liberty. The fact that the regime under the Tsar was as bad/worse is irrelevant. Another example is China.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #396 - August 12, 2011, 04:56 PM

    I can't believe we're arguing whether communism is a good idea or not.  wacko

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #397 - August 12, 2011, 04:59 PM

    The fact the regime under the Tsar was as bad/worse is irrelevant.


    Not irrelevant at all. You said communism causes more problems than it solves and said for proof all I had to do was look at any former "communist" country. Now how would it be fair or even rational to assess if it causes more problems than it solves without looking at what it replaced?

    I can't believe we're arguing whether communism is a good idea or not.  wacko


    We're not. We're arguing over Hassan's specific statement that communism* causes more problems than it solves. I simply don't see a convincing amount of evidence this is the case in every situation or generally (though I will admit it is true in some situations).

    *Communism here being defined as the Leninist regimes which have claimed "communism", not the classical Marxian definition of communism.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #398 - August 12, 2011, 05:04 PM

    Not irrelevant at all. You said communism causes more problems than it solves and said for proof all I had to do was look at any former "communist" country. Now how would it be fair or even rational to assess if it causes more problems than it solves without looking at what it replaced?


    Then thats my fault for not making what I meant clear. I mean Communism to be compared to what we have in the UK - a modern liberal democracy.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #399 - August 12, 2011, 05:11 PM

    In that case you're comparing apples to oranges-- comparing the outcomes of semi-feudal monarchies that were just developing capitalism when they transitioned to "communism" (really Leninism is the appropriate descriptor I think) to advanced capitalist imperial powers. I don't think that's a fair comparison. As IA once noted in a similar debate I had with him, East Germany and maybe Czechoslovakia were two formerly advanced capitalist nations that turned to Leninism, but you can't really say that for the rest of them.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #400 - August 12, 2011, 05:19 PM

    Cumujizm iz mingin doe.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #401 - August 12, 2011, 08:03 PM

    Interesting live debate, on TV right now.

    BBC3-  Riots: Young Voter's Question Time.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #402 - August 12, 2011, 08:04 PM

    Cumujizm iz mingin doe.


    arX! where have you been?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #403 - August 13, 2011, 03:59 AM

    Is anyone really tiring of the overuse of the word 'chav'? It seems... de-humanising...
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #404 - August 13, 2011, 04:45 AM

    No. It fascinates Americans like me. dance

    18:42   Godot   the laffy taffy, and it's many dense layers of rich metaphors - that of asses, and that of candy, and of shaking
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #405 - August 13, 2011, 04:46 AM

    Is anyone really tiring of the overuse of the word 'chav'? It seems... de-humanising...


    and as soon as they become humans, we'll start calling them people  Wink Cheesy
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #406 - August 13, 2011, 05:06 AM

    this whole episode is merely a brief glimpse of Britain's future. It has nothing left to sell the rest of the world and everyone knows it.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #407 - August 13, 2011, 05:45 AM

    No. It fascinates Americans like me. dance

    When people insist on trouncing all your wishes and opinions or ignoring your problems and living conditions because you're just a chav... it will annoy you too, trust me. Tongue

    I grew up on a council estate, went to one of the absolute worst schools in the country, my family's income was... not even worth remembering... never got any pocket money nor had many places to go, so had very little to do and very few ways of expressing myself... school was too dire to interest me... my friends were in the same boat... so yeah, I got into trouble with the cops and spent too much time getting into fights and shit... half my street had children who had criminal records and the other half had children who had children. (Aphrodite will testify to the shit-hole I live in XD.)

    I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just really sick of people telling me they were my own decisions and opportunities are always available...  yes they were and perhaps they are, but it's a real struggle not fucking your life up before it's properly began, when everything around you is doing it's best to drag you down. I got off lightly I think, there were a lot of times I could have done something very stupid, but if these riots reached Bradford and I was still 18, I think I would have been somewhere with my friends in the thick of them. I wouldn't have had any long-winded political arguments or some idealistic higher cause... it would just have been hard to resist rebelling against... society... whatever the hell that meant to me, when society didn't seem to give a shit about me. But then I'm just a chav. Que sais je?

    Make of that what you will.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #408 - August 13, 2011, 06:29 AM

    I grew up on a council estate, went to one of the absolute worst schools in the country, my family's income was... not even worth remembering... never got any pocket money nor had many places to go, so had very little to do and very few ways of expressing myself... school was too dire to interest me... my friends were in the same boat... so yeah, I got into trouble with the cops and spent too much time getting into fights and shit... half my street had children who had criminal records and the other half had children who had children. (Aphrodite will testify to the shit-hole I live in XD.)

    I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just really sick of people telling me they were my own decisions and opportunities are always available...  yes they were and perhaps they are, but it's a real struggle not fucking your life up before it's properly began, when everything around you is doing it's best to drag you down. I got off lightly I think, there were a lot of times I could have done something very stupid, but if these riots reached Bradford and I was still 18, I think I would have been somewhere with my friends in the thick of them. I wouldn't have had any long-winded political arguments or some idealistic higher cause... it would just have been hard to resist rebelling against... society... whatever the hell that meant to me, when society didn't seem to give a shit about me. But then I'm just a chav. Que sais je?

    Make of that what you will.


    You see, its somewhat difficult to respond to that.
    Everything ive highlighted in bold is in a direct application to myself and my inner-circle of counterparts (but add high levels of racism, bullying, an unstable single-parent family and the death of a father figure at age 13),
    Yet at present, myself (somehow speaking with a vague 'queens english' high class accent and wearing a suit) and the people I deal with are (or in the beginning stages of) becoming high-flyers, professionals, intellectuals and rich.
    I have never smoked, drank or taken drugs, no problems with the police etc etc

    I suppose reality effects people differently, because most people who were around me were clearly the type who would have been at the riots, including some people I used to be friend with at one point, but broke away from after they began mixing with (what I call) Scum; where as I would never consider it any at point.

    Interestingly no one ever caused any issues when around me at that time, but always began to the moment they left my vicinity. Perhaps I was just born into being a good influence, as with my circle friends.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #409 - August 13, 2011, 06:45 AM

    The reality is that even if 90% of poor people were hard-working and smart, the majority would still be poor. The economic superstructure demands it-- not everyone can be rich or even middle income in our system. A large pool of people must exist at the bottom of society due to the systemic demands of the economic engine of society, either as powerless, cheap labor, exploited to various degrees, or as a surplus army of labor (the unemployed) or as the parasitic underclass criminals feeding on the poor and working-class from the bottom, just as the parasitic ruling class and middle management feeds on them from on high.

    True in the advanced capitalist countries, particularly the seats of imperial power and their clients in Europe, there exists some degree of social mobility for poor and working-class people who are intelligent and motivated, but there's some luck involved, and, as indicated above, an upper limit on how many can advance-- the opportunities for advancement are finite. So while some will succeed in moving up, some equally-equipped and motivated will not.

    Short version-- you ain't all that.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #410 - August 13, 2011, 11:48 AM

    The reality is that even if 90% of poor people were hard-working and smart, the majority would still be poor. The economic superstructure demands it-- not everyone can be rich or even middle income in our system. A large pool of people must exist at the bottom of society due to the systemic demands of the economic engine of society, either as powerless, cheap labor, exploited to various degrees, or as a surplus army of labor (the unemployed) or as the parasitic underclass criminals feeding on the poor and working-class from the bottom, just as the parasitic ruling class and middle management feeds on them from on high.

    True in the advanced capitalist countries, particularly the seats of imperial power and their clients in Europe, there exists some degree of social mobility for poor and working-class people who are intelligent and motivated, but there's some luck involved, and, as indicated above, an upper limit on how many can advance-- the opportunities for advancement are finite. So while some will succeed in moving up, some equally-equipped and motivated will not.

    Short version-- you ain't all that.


    Well Im clearly more than the 90% and alot of people who whine and bitch about being at the bottom of the barrel.
    To an extent what you say is true, but to another extent, its bollocks.
    Alot of people stay on the ground, not because 'opportunities are finite' but because they have no desire to achieve or too goddamn stupid to even provide the illusion of self-worth.

    I spent plenty of months in job centres and work development programs and I'll tell you this:
    I was the one sending out 100's of C.Vs per week, I was the one who showed up every day, I was the one who took every available course, I was the one who spent the whole day in classes, I was the one who spent any additional money on education, not them, ME.
    Whilst the other groups of 10's, 20's, 30's were doing eff all, reading the newspapers, smoking and looking out the window, I was the one who actually got off his ass and did something and I am the one who started to make something of myself, so you can cut the bullshit on how its societies fault for peoples standards and how it comes down to luck. Yes the chances are finite, but they're not 1 in a million or like a lottery.
    Its not 'luck' that most self-made millionaires got to where they were, you cant claim its about financial help and you cant claim its about education, because in so many of the cases these people were just as much in the same position as said people. Its about work and responsibility and worth and ambition.
    I presume you live in England, how many people on 'the secret millionaire' go back to the slums from where they lived? Did everything just miraculously deteriorate in the area the moment the cameras started rolling?

    Theres a reason why I was always the top of my class, why the staff at every appointment liked me the most, why I was always given the most flexibility, the most attention, the highest ratings, the highest applause, the most job opportunities, the highest work positions, the most pay increases, the most promotions, the most referrals, the best references in every single case and the reason why 10 of us went for interviews at a factory --9 of them getting work as sorters/packers and yet I (with no more experience or qualifications at the time) came out with trainee supervisor with an extra £3 an hour...It had eff all to do with luck, it had eff all to do with 'society' and it had eff all to do with my identical position to every other person in my class/ work group who were mediocre AT BEST..Gee, I wonder what the cause was for my consistent special treatment over the others..


    Like you said, some people have the ability but never get the opportunity and sometimes thats true; But these people are not even close to numbers that would make such an excuse valid.
    I cant even count the number of shop-owners and general successes in the area who don't even come from the country..people who come from nothing and with nothing more than a suitcase and can't even speak the language, yet manage to open businesses  and gain higher positions in companies in a short time period...funny how that works for a society that forces people down..
    The enigmas are piling up aren't they...
    Hard work + Ambitious = respect + promotions + opportunity? Naaa, its a conspiracy from the corporate elites in their ivory towers..

    So yes I am 'all that', I always will be, not something that can be said for most others, whether it be on this forum or in the local estate.
    People are responsible for their own futures. Yes its hard some times, but its
    1) Not unattainable
    2) Not societies fault that some people just so happen to not make any effort or take any interest in being any more than a cog in a machine
    3) Surprisingly to you and society, isn't always everyone elses fault but their own.
    and forever making excuses for the 'victims' (as I tend to see certain people do on this forum, no matter what the scenario) helps no one, especially not the people who are having 'psychological' and 'social' excuses shoved down their throats for explanations as to why they're spray-painting the wall or downing a bottle of vodka in the street or launching a brick at a car windscreen.

    Society needs some people to be poor? Well the market is pretty over-saturated and I seldom come across people who have the mentality of finding it enough of an issue to even make an attempt to get out of it.
    Its one big nanny-state playing the violin where everyone has a sense of entitlement but no care of understanding of why life isn't providing.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #411 - August 13, 2011, 12:22 PM

    Whoa!
    'The whites have become black' says historian David Starke

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

    Also:

    Self-destruction is more dystopian even than nihilism. Not only does it imply hopelessness, it suggests this week’s rioters are cut off not just from society, but also from themselves. In A Clockwork Orange, Burgess illustrates this by naming one of Alex’s victims “Alexander”. The idea is taken further in the film Taxi Driver, when the protagonist Travis Bickle utters the immortal “Are you talkin’ to me?” monologue while pointing his gun at his own reflection in the mirror.
    As in fiction, so in reality: just because the violence across Britain’s streets seemed to have no meaningful target, it doesn’t follow that it wasn’t directed at anything.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c42acba-c40f-11e0-b302-00144feabdc0.html
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #412 - August 13, 2011, 12:35 PM

    Whoa!
    'The whites have become black' says historian David Starke


    Article:
    Quote
    He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''


    +9000 for that quote alone!
    This 'gangsta' culture is certainly a key issue for a large percentage of the populous in question.
    I doubt its a coincidence that near-identical situations exist from across the sea where the concept originated.

    I honestly don't want to be the type of person who says 'hiphop and rap played a part in this' (the typical scapegoats for everything in the 90's in America), But I do have to wonder how gullible some people are in thinking that many of the stars in question actually live/lived the personas they play on screen (or atleast to the extent they portray it).
    Hopefully there are other explanations for this.

    Now that someone has said it publicly and officially, there should be a few informal interviews from said people so we can hear it from their mouths.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #413 - August 13, 2011, 12:52 PM

    Who is behind the riots,

    http://westminsterjournal.com/?p=217

    Arthur.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #414 - August 13, 2011, 12:58 PM

    I honestly don't want to be the type of person who says 'hiphop and rap played a part in this'  ...


    How terrible of you to even think of such a thing!  Tongue

    Just kidding, I do agree with the point made also but as can be observed on has to be very, very careful in WHAT they say in order to not come across as a complete prejudice.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #415 - August 13, 2011, 03:09 PM

    Pretty good article, although a bit alarmist to suggest one should leave the country ...

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904006104576502301564142090.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    By DOUGLAS MURRAY

    London

    In April 1993, black teenager Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death at a bus stop in south London. The Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) bungled the investigation, and by 1997 Britain's new Labour government announced a judicial inquiry into the matter. The report was published in 1999 and found that "institutional racism affects the MPS, and police services elsewhere." It also made recommendations aimed at "the elimination of racist prejudice and disadvantage and the demonstration of fairness in all aspects of policing."

    Since then the country's police services have been suffering a public nervous breakdown, quaking at every public-relations setback and buckling under mounting restrictions on their ability to do their jobs. The Metropolitan Police is also leaderless, its commissioner having resigned last month in the wake of the phone-hacking scandal.

    What has happened to the British police in the last decade is a textbook example of how to wreck an institution. In November 2010, when students and anarchists took to the streets in protest of rising tuition fees, they vandalized property and smashed the Conservative Party's headquarters. The police seemed unable to stop them.

    A couple of nights ago a member of the public in an affluent London neighborhood accosted a group of rioters. They beat him into traction while a policeman looked on. He had apparently called for backup and could not do anything until it arrived.

    Dysfunction does not only permeate Britain's police force. It applies to most of Britain's institutions, from schools to social services to local governments.

    This week's chaos might signal an even more important moment for Britain than many people realize: Either the radical left's lies about the country—namely its economic and welfare system—will finally be exposed, or they will be reinforced by politicians eager to rewrite history. The leaders who helped bring us to this pass seem intent not merely to repeat their mistakes, but to deepen them.

    Within hours of the riots starting on Saturday, the left-wing former mayor of London Ken Livingstone claimed the unrest was "the fault of the government," citing a 9% cut in central government grants to Tottenham, where these crime sprees began. Labour's Shadow Health Minister Diane Abbott made sure to garnish her condemnation of the violence with the reminder that in her constituency, "Haringey Council has lost £41 million from its budget and has cut youth services by 75%." Whether her constituents ever raised this issue as they looted luxury-goods shops, Ms. Abbott did not say.

    Deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman behaved worst of all. Claiming on Tuesday that Labour leader Ed Miliband had been "well-received in Peckham," she compared this reception to the hostility that has greeted Britain's Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron and London's Conservative Mayor Boris Johnson this week. She claimed that the difference was due to the Labour Party's opposition to tuition-fee rises. Stuck in an even less functional radical-left tape-loop, Labour Parliamentarian John McDonnell blames bankers.

    So the Labour Party has decided to draw political conclusions from the hooliganism. They have decided that these supposed breadline-rioters—who seem utterly uninterested in bread—are the product of political decisions the Tories have made in the last 15 months. Fine.

    But these aren't the only political conclusions we can draw from this week. One is also tempted to point out that during Labour's 13 years in power it raised public spending to record levels to fund a massive increase in the welfare state. By the time the current government came to power last year, it had no fiscally sane choice but to reduce these unsustainable spending levels. Hence, the "cuts" (which still entail nominal spending increases) that Labourites are now blaming for all that ails Britain.

    Did the country at least get anything for its money under Labour? Only a generation of young Britons who consider work not merely a "lifestyle choice," but a crummy one at that. Under Labour, a life on welfare appeared the best life to live.

    It is no surprise that the north London borough of Islington has been among the riot scenes this week. Prosperous and left wing, it is also scattered with the welfare beneficiaries whom Labourites have created. To that extent the borough was the postcard exemplar of leftist Britain. And now it's up in smoke.

    A few years ago former U.K. cabinet minister George Walden wrote a terrific short book about the country, called "Time to Emigrate?" If it gets reprinted this year perhaps the publishers will consider dropping the question mark.
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #416 - August 13, 2011, 03:21 PM

    Well Im clearly more than the 90% and alot of people who whine and bitch about being at the bottom of the barrel.
    To an extent what you say is true, but to another extent, its bollocks.
    Alot of people stay on the ground, not because 'opportunities are finite' but because they have no desire to achieve or too goddamn stupid to even provide the illusion of self-worth.

    I spent plenty of months in job centres and work development programs and I'll tell you this:
    I was the one sending out 100's of C.Vs per week, I was the one who showed up every day, I was the one who took every available course, I was the one who spent the whole day in classes, I was the one who spent any additional money on education, not them, ME.
    Whilst the other groups of 10's, 20's, 30's were doing eff all, reading the newspapers, smoking and looking out the window, I was the one who actually got off his ass and did something and I am the one who started to make something of myself, so you can cut the bullshit on how its societies fault for peoples standards and how it comes down to luck. Yes the chances are finite, but they're not 1 in a million or like a lottery.
    Its not 'luck' that most self-made millionaires got to where they were, you cant claim its about financial help and you cant claim its about education, because in so many of the cases these people were just as much in the same position as said people. Its about work and responsibility and worth and ambition.
    I presume you live in England, how many people on 'the secret millionaire' go back to the slums from where they lived? Did everything just miraculously deteriorate in the area the moment the cameras started rolling?

    Theres a reason why I was always the top of my class, why the staff at every appointment liked me the most, why I was always given the most flexibility, the most attention, the highest ratings, the highest applause, the most job opportunities, the highest work positions, the most pay increases, the most promotions, the most referrals, the best references in every single case and the reason why 10 of us went for interviews at a factory --9 of them getting work as sorters/packers and yet I (with no more experience or qualifications at the time) came out with trainee supervisor with an extra £3 an hour...It had eff all to do with luck, it had eff all to do with 'society' and it had eff all to do with my identical position to every other person in my class/ work group who were mediocre AT BEST..Gee, I wonder what the cause was for my consistent special treatment over the others..


    Like you said, some people have the ability but never get the opportunity and sometimes thats true; But these people are not even close to numbers that would make such an excuse valid.
    I cant even count the number of shop-owners and general successes in the area who don't even come from the country..people who come from nothing and with nothing more than a suitcase and can't even speak the language, yet manage to open businesses  and gain higher positions in companies in a short time period...funny how that works for a society that forces people down..
    The enigmas are piling up aren't they...
    Hard work + Ambitious = respect + promotions + opportunity? Naaa, its a conspiracy from the corporate elites in their ivory towers..

    So yes I am 'all that', I always will be, not something that can be said for most others, whether it be on this forum or in the local estate.
    People are responsible for their own futures. Yes its hard some times, but its
    1) Not unattainable
    2) Not societies fault that some people just so happen to not make any effort or take any interest in being any more than a cog in a machine
    3) Surprisingly to you and society, isn't always everyone elses fault but their own.
    and forever making excuses for the 'victims' (as I tend to see certain people do on this forum, no matter what the scenario) helps no one, especially not the people who are having 'psychological' and 'social' excuses shoved down their throats for explanations as to why they're spray-painting the wall or downing a bottle of vodka in the street or launching a brick at a car windscreen.

    Society needs some people to be poor? Well the market is pretty over-saturated and I seldom come across people who have the mentality of finding it enough of an issue to even make an attempt to get out of it.
    Its one big nanny-state playing the violin where everyone has a sense of entitlement but no care of understanding of why life isn't providing.



    Coolstorybro

    Whoa!
    'The whites have become black' says historian David Starke

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517


    This is a new low, even for you HO.

    Who is behind the riots,

    http://westminsterjournal.com/?p=217

    Arthur.


    Communists-- of course.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #417 - August 13, 2011, 03:23 PM

    I think the call by a Labour(?) MP (Alan Milburn) during one of the previous election campaigns to allow "more people the opportunity to join the middle class" is pretty much the problem in a nutshell. It wasn't a call for a social equality, just for more individual escape. Yes people get out, but people are people. They are diverse. You would think there is an equal spread of intelligence and ability among the lower classes as among the middle/higher - if most of the chavs seem like lazy fuckers who have no drive to move up the social ladder, you have to wonder what is causing that. It's easy to claim they are poor because they are lazy and anti-social... but perhaps they are lazy and anti-social because they are poor...

  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #418 - August 13, 2011, 03:31 PM

    When people insist on trouncing all your wishes and opinions or ignoring your problems and living conditions because you're just a chav... it will annoy you too, trust me. Tongue

    I grew up on a council estate, went to one of the absolute worst schools in the country, my family's income was... not even worth remembering... never got any pocket money nor had many places to go, so had very little to do and very few ways of expressing myself... school was too dire to interest me... my friends were in the same boat... so yeah, I got into trouble with the cops and spent too much time getting into fights and shit... half my street had children who had criminal records and the other half had children who had children. (Aphrodite will testify to the shit-hole I live in XD.)

    I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just really sick of people telling me they were my own decisions and opportunities are always available...  yes they were and perhaps they are, but it's a real struggle not fucking your life up before it's properly began, when everything around you is doing it's best to drag you down. I got off lightly I think, there were a lot of times I could have done something very stupid, but if these riots reached Bradford and I was still 18, I think I would have been somewhere with my friends in the thick of them. I wouldn't have had any long-winded political arguments or some idealistic higher cause... it would just have been hard to resist rebelling against... society... whatever the hell that meant to me, when society didn't seem to give a shit about me. But then I'm just a chav. Que sais je?

    Make of that what you will.


    thanks for posting this

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Riots in London
     Reply #419 - August 13, 2011, 03:32 PM

    I think the call by a Labour(?) MP (Alan Milburn) during one of the previous election campaigns to allow "more people the opportunity to join the middle class" is pretty much the problem in a nutshell. It wasn't a call for a social equality, just for more individual escape. Yes people get out, but people are people. They are diverse. You would think there is an equal spread of intelligence and ability among the lower classes as among the middle/higher - if most of the chavs seem like lazy fuckers who have no drive to move up the social ladder, you have to wonder what is causing that. It's easy to claim they are poor because they are lazy and anti-social... but perhaps they are lazy and anti-social because they are poor...


    Short of a complete reordering of the economy/society, full employment at good wages in respectful, safe and fair conditions should be the goal, and anyone who just chooses not to work can get fucked and not expect a single penny.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
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