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 Topic: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy

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  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     OP - July 13, 2011, 09:05 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQQyW3MHyvs


    Youtube
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #1 - July 13, 2011, 09:24 PM
    The same old barbaric and medieval desert rubbish all over again....
    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #2 - July 13, 2011, 10:24 PM
    Hahaha my original content made it into the video!!  dance
    Did you make this video crazyislam? Apparently you did Smiley
    Good stuff anyway Cheesy

    1 remark though: the part where he talks about regulation, I do agree with him. The Quran addressed several things from a legalistic view (Wife-beating is one of them). Polygamy was common, but there was no limit on the number of wives. With the Quranic verse, the limit was set to 4.

    Not sure if I have this info from a reliable source or an islam apologist, will have to look into it, but think it's legit info...
    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #3 - July 13, 2011, 10:43 PM
    Great video.  Cheesy

    I like the part where he thinks only men can be attracted to more than one person and women cannot.   Roll Eyes
    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #4 - July 14, 2011, 04:21 AM
    Quote from: three44 on July 13, 2011, 10:24 PM
    Hahaha my original content made it into the video!!  dance
    Did you make this video crazyislam? Apparently you did Smiley
    Good stuff anyway Cheesy

    1 remark though: the part where he talks about regulation, I do agree with him. The Quran addressed several things from a legalistic view (Wife-beating is one of them). Polygamy was common, but there was no limit on the number of wives. With the Quranic verse, the limit was set to 4.

    Not sure if I have this info from a reliable source or an islam apologist, will have to look into it, but think it's legit info...


    Well, if it was cultural, they would've 'grown' out of it much earlier, but since it's the word of god, it's followed to atleast some degree, even today in the twentyfirst century, so I'd contest that.  Smiley If it was truly the word of god, there was no need to 'regulate' that, but should've rather abolished it altogether.

    BTW I use troll mohd. memes all the time, just love it  Cheesy


    Youtube
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #5 - July 14, 2011, 08:05 AM
    Quote from: Peppermint Tits on July 13, 2011, 10:43 PM
    Great video.  Cheesy

    I like the part where he thinks only men can be attracted to more than one person and women cannot.   Roll Eyes


    Islamic equality! dance dance


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #6 - August 27, 2011, 10:44 PM
    I love how it is assumed that dressing 'attractively' is an active invitation to be raped in Islam. As if it is entirely her fault *facepalm*

    The polygamy doesn't surprise me, this is the religion of weak men who require full female submission and an outlet for their perversion  wacko
  • Re: Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #7 - August 29, 2011, 03:10 AM
    What baffles me is the total ignorance of muslims when promoting polygeny. Here's some stats:

    World population is around 6 billion with a 51:49 female:male ratio
    This does not take into account that women live longer leaving a large portion of 'excess' females outside the age range, but lets assume all the women are in the right age and men. Therefore, this means, if every man had one woman this would leave an 'excess' of 120 million females. This means only 4% of men would be able to have two wives if every man must have a woman and vice versa.
    Now, if some men have 4 wives and this was a norm, then the best men would get 4- many women would happily be the 3rd, 4th or even 20th wife of brad pitt (look at hugh heffner LOL!)- so in this world where islam is supreme and the rules are followed, where polygeny is a norm, the 'best' men would have 4 wives. If every man got 4 wives, this would mean that 765, 000, 000 men would have 4 women- this is 12.75% of the population!  Cheesy

    Polygeny is not advantagous to men, in fact it is more advantageous to average women since they would share in a better man than have a crappy one. Polygeny is advantagous only to the 'best' men (to get into that 12.75% you gota be good looking and rich!). Polygeny is disadvantageous to average men (since these men would have no women ) and exceptional women (who in a monogomous society would get 100% of a great man and not a share).

    Now, muslims say one reason is that every woman must have a man to take care of her (a common reason being otherwise she'll have to be a prostitute  Huh?) so what about men? If all the women are taken by these best men then surely by the same logic these men will turn to beastiality or homosexuality- as exemplified by the prison system!
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #8 - April 12, 2014, 10:47 AM
    I just found this article on facebook and I sit here stunned, it is fuel for muslims to use evolution to their benefit please read and tell me what you'l think

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201108/are-people-naturally-polygamous-0

    There is no actual facts or evidence in this but I can really see how it is fuel for the muslim world

    So much  information out there makes this whole religious thing confusing
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #9 - April 12, 2014, 11:16 AM
    humans are 'naturally' many things. If Muslims say that polygamy is an endorsement of human's 'natural' state we can say to them that it is 'natural' for women to have multiple sexual partners in their lifetime, and thus their version of restricting women's sexuality by saying they must only have one sexual partner who is their husband in their lifetime goes against 'nature' too.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #10 - April 12, 2014, 11:26 AM
    You really can't take shit like that seriously, because Islam contradicts evolution in the first place. Therefore, any "evolutionary" argument for whatever "Islamic" is void from the get-go.

    By the way, there are examples in nature where species form couples with more than one male in the constellation. It's not the norm, but it happens. Also, species that form couples with one male and multiple females isn't the norm either. I'm not a biologist or zoologist, but from simple observation it seems as the most common form is where one male and one female mate and raise the offspring either together or the male/female alone. That's it. Very few animals form monogamous relationship that last a lifetime, most animals find a new partner every mating season. Even among primates who live in patriarchal flocks, the female members are never "faithful" and even form homosexual relationships just for sexual pleasure.

    It's just shows that these "naturalists" who use these kind of arguments to prove how "natural" Islamic laws are, do not know much about biology, evolution or anything at all.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #11 - April 12, 2014, 11:43 AM
    What exactly is it that makes muslim men so obsessed with the idea of polygamy?  Is it men in general, from my experience its mostly muslim men
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #12 - April 12, 2014, 11:47 AM
    I'm not sure, but one part is probably because male sexuality is so praised within Islamic discourse. It's all about male sexuality both in this life and the next. And then you have the fact that strict gender segregation, no-dating policy etc creates a lot of sexual frustration. So men fantasize how they can bang multiple women but still be "good Muslims". Too bad the gal has to stick with whatever man she ends up with irregardless of how small or useless dick he has, or how bad he is in bed Roll Eyes
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #13 - April 12, 2014, 12:09 PM
    Let's look at this situation for a minute: A man is married for around ten years he has around 5 kids. he loves his kids dearly but is unhappy with his wife, he married young and the match was not ideal, his sexual life is not satisfying and he has been trying to no avail to make things work for years.

    As a muslim he has the option of taking a second wife and balancing the two lives,, finding goodness in both (although putting wife one through an emotional ordeal)

    If he was not religious how would he chose to handle this situation, considering he does not want to miss out on his 5 kids or lose them in any way

    Seems like in this case islam provides him a good alternative, but as usual not a good alternative for the wife.
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #14 - April 12, 2014, 12:17 PM
    Yeah, not only does she continue having an unfulfilling sex life, she now has to be part-time single mom while knowing her husband who took the best years of her life, her beauty, her youth, is now somewhere else fucking a 10 year old younger woman building a separate life she can never be part of. Wow, allah's decree is full of wisdom and justice.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #15 - April 12, 2014, 12:32 PM
    Well actually cornflower he wasn't planning to do it in a mean or vindictive way.
    He was planning to marry somone age appropriate but more compatible and share his time fairly between the two families.
    There are people who do the polygamy thing fairly, but is it necessary in the first place?

    My question is what would be a fair alternative to this situation if the man was not a muslim and without looking into polygamy?
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #16 - April 12, 2014, 12:44 PM
    First of all, get to know the person you are about to marry so that "we weren't compatible in the first place" isn't some sorry excuse for you to get some new young pussy. Second of all, if your sex life is unfulfilling perhaps you should work on it and explore your sexuality together. She isn't in the mood? Look into your relationship where the problem lies and see if you can work it out.

    If it doesn't work, you can chose to get a divorce and try and find new love with someone who can ignite that passion in your life again. Split custody, have the children 50/50 and be supportive and cooperative in your co-parenting. For crying out loud, I know divorced parents who live in the same apartment building and are friends for the sake of the kids. But you know, the whole Islamic context and guidelines makes ALL of this impossible.

    You aren't allowed to date, you live a gender segregated life which lead to  you not really knowing how to interact with the opposite sex. Most marriages are arranged, a lot of couples aren't even sexually attracted to each other in that way when they marry each other. Then you have this obsolete gender stereotypical lifestyle which is extremely unfulfilling for women in general. It's depressing. And if you eventually decide to divorce, you all of a sudden become complete strangers and can't even look each other in the eyes anymore. How the FUCK can you co-parent in those circumstances?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #17 - April 12, 2014, 12:58 PM
    you have answered my q well Wink thanks. That makes a lot of sense and actually sounds like a much more fair alternative, I have been stuck under a religious cloud for way too long and it's the only way I know. Finding alternatives is proving difficult
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #18 - April 12, 2014, 01:52 PM
    As long as all partners give their consents I am OK with polygamy. But limiting it to only the men (or women for the matter), is unfair. But a monogamous marriage is so beautiful IMHO. There are countries like India where the number of women is less than that of men because of female infanticide. I guess the omniscient God didn't notice that coming. And if as the Muslims say that there have been rampant female infanticide before the arrival of Islam in Arabia, then why didn't Muhammad give this right to the women?
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #19 - April 12, 2014, 01:54 PM
    And those who say that women can't be sexually active on all days of the month, haven't they heard that the Prophet used to divide his times with his wives? And does one need to perform sex everyday? What about long distance marriage relationships?
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #20 - April 12, 2014, 02:02 PM
    Polygamy is the practise of pre-modern cultures in which women were chattel and seen as good for breeding and little else. A male could have status by having more than one wife. We've moved on since then, and there is no moral excuse for it today. its called bigamy, and is a crime.

    Incidentally the United States government threatened to send the army into Utah if the Mormons did not end polygamy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War#Polygamy.2C_popular_sovereignty.2C_and_slavery

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #21 - April 12, 2014, 02:12 PM
    I have an issue with this "consent". First of all, if it is religiously (or culturally) sanctioned meaning that a devout believer is sinful if she does not want to agree to such an agreement, then how "consenting" can such a choice be? If it is the right of one partner, how consenting can it be? Secondly, polygamous relationships are very hard to maintain for most people. There are a few who can live in "poly-amorous" relationships, but for such relationships to work I think that the context for such relationship must be one of (gender) equality and justice.

    There is a reason why studies have shown that women and children who live in polygamous relationships from varying cultural and religious background suffer from depression and other mental problems. The children from such marriages are often have low academic performance in comparison to other children from the same social and economic status but who live in a "traditional" family.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #22 - April 12, 2014, 02:20 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 12, 2014, 02:02 PM
    Polygamy is the practise of pre-modern cultures in which women were chattel and seen as good for breeding and little else. A male could have status by having more than one wife. We've moved on since then, and there is no moral excuse for it today. its called bigamy, and is a crime.

    Incidentally the United States government threatened to send the army into Utah if the Mormons did not end polygamy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War#Polygamy.2C_popular_sovereignty.2C_and_slavery




    But I have seen cases of both polyandry and polygyny in US on TV. Why aren't the government doing anything to them?

    @Cornflower- I don't like polygamy myself. But some people do seem to be happy with it. Of course there is and will be discrimination there. It's a messy business.
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #23 - April 12, 2014, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya on April 12, 2014, 01:54 PM
    And those who say that women can't be sexually active on all days of the month, haven't they heard that the Prophet used to divide his times with his wives? And does one need to perform sex everyday? What about long distance marriage relationships?

    One doesnt need to perform sex everyday but it is highly recommended Wink
    Try phone sex its can be amazing Wink
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #24 - April 12, 2014, 07:07 PM
    Personally I've always been a one woman man.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #25 - April 12, 2014, 09:56 PM
    Lua, these are some of the reasons I have heard to justify why islam promotes polygamy, and yes i know how ridiculous all of them are:

    So firstly they say that a man has a natural tendency as mentioned in the above article to have more then one partner, and this is the reason men cheat on their wives. so pologamy provides a 'halaal' outlet for men to satify these natural urges.

    Then they say that that there is a natural shortage in the ratio of men to woman, more woman then men so pologamy ensures all woman get a partner

    Then they say pologamy allows widows and divorcees to remarry as the married men can provide homes for them   Flaming mad
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #26 - April 12, 2014, 10:00 PM
    Yes, all of those are pretty stupid, too, and I've heard them before...but the "special circumstance" one is the one I actually hear from a lot of Muslim feminists/more cunning apologists, and they try to say that even Mohammad's marriages had higher functions (uniting tribes and smoothing stuff out after conquest and whatnot).

    It's just so transparently baseless that I don't know how it's the go-to explanation for the people I've met.
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #27 - April 12, 2014, 10:04 PM
    How are they feminists? I mean really. The whole point of feminism is both sexes having equal rights to live their own lives and forge their own destinies. You can't do that if you can't even have a roof over your head and/or income without the charity of another just because of your sex. I know there are muslims who are also feminists but islamic feminism is an oxymoron unless you either change islam or change the meaning of feminism.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #28 - April 12, 2014, 10:09 PM
    Quote
    How are they feminists?


    Their words, not mine. It bothers me, too.
  • Islam, Women's Rights and Polygamy
     Reply #29 - April 12, 2014, 10:25 PM
    For fucks sake, "Islamic" feminism is impossible. It just is. Muslim feminist do exist however, but they must chose between being really bad Muslims (perhaps even heretics) or really bad feminists Smiley
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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