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Theme Changer

 Topic: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations

 (Read 78538 times)
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  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #30 - December 02, 2013, 09:41 PM

    Got anything usefull to add to the discussion?


    You are using the understanding of the past people to claim that they had knowledge of discoveries made by future people. So I ask YOU, do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #31 - December 02, 2013, 09:43 PM

    So I take it that you accept that the Quran says the universe is expanding then.  Wink


    No because previously I thought both verses were ambiguous and largely meaningless drivel. But if the first says the heavens are still expanding, then the next says the earth is still spreading. So now you are telling me that the quran contains more errors than I already knew about, and I dont cont anything as an error unless I'm sure about it.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #32 - December 02, 2013, 09:44 PM

    Hey Jedi.

    I wasn't doing any of that. I havnt claimed a "Scientific Miracle".

    I was simply detailing the Arabic meanings.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #33 - December 02, 2013, 09:45 PM

    No because previously I thought both verses were ambiguous and largely meaningless drivel. But if the first says the heavens are still expanding, then the next says the earth is still spreading. So now you are telling me that the quran contains more errors than I already knew about.




    Why no? Didn't I just detail the Arabic meaning?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #34 - December 02, 2013, 09:47 PM

    because i dont think you satisfactorily addressed my points.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #35 - December 02, 2013, 09:49 PM

    meaning is similar to feeling in that both are subjective experiences that are both temporally and spatially located. How can you superimpose the meaning of the past people upon the discoveries of the future people?

    When the meanings are so elasticated and there is some tenuous link made to the objective scientific principle, at best you can say 'aaah, coincidence' or 'oh my how queer.'

    If your standard is simply based upon meaning taken out of context of the literalist interpretation of the time, then apply that standard to all streams of thought. Ancient Egyptians writings, the Aztecs, the Native Americans, hell even the Dogons made startling references only know today. Either Allah is confused or is he a firm believer in the equal distribution of scientific miracles.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #36 - December 02, 2013, 09:52 PM

    No because previously I thought both verses were ambiguous and largely meaningless drivel. But if the first says the heavens are still expanding, then the next says the earth is still spreading. So now you are telling me that the quran contains more errors than I already knew about, and I dont cont anything as an error unless I'm sure about it.




    Ok your point was regarding لْمَاهِدُونَ in the next verse.

    The word according to classical dictionary Taj Al Arus as quoted in Lanes Lexicon is:



    To make something even, smooth, plain.

    So the verse is saying Allah continues to make the land that we walk on even, smooth and plain for us.

    Now back to the question do you accept that the Quran says the Universe is expanding.  whistling2
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #37 - December 02, 2013, 09:53 PM

    meaning is similar to feeling in that both are subjective experiences that are both temporally and spatially located. How can you superimpose the meaning of the past people upon the discoveries of the future people?

    When the meanings are so elasticated and there is some tenuous link made to the objective scientific principle, at best you can say 'aaah, coincidence' or 'oh my how queer.'

    If your standard is simply based upon meaning taken out of context of the literalist interpretation of the time, then apply that standard to all streams of thought. Ancient Egyptians writings, the Aztecs, the Native Americans, hell even the Dogons made startling references only know today. Either Allah is confused or is he a firm believer in the equal distribution of scientific miracles.


    My friend. I saw this thread. And thought i would join the discussion.

    I simply detailed the meanings of the words as per Classical dictionaries and added some Classical Tafsirs to add more to the discussion.

    Thats all.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #38 - December 02, 2013, 09:53 PM

    ^^^^^^

    Have you ever fucking been hiking?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #39 - December 02, 2013, 09:55 PM

    My friend. I saw this thread. And thought i would join the discussion.

    I simply detailed the meanings of the words as per Classical dictionaries and added some Classical Tafsirs to add more to the discussion.

    Thats all.


    Then you confirm what I said? Then there is no discussion to be had. Bloody tafsir was all wrong.

    The Jedi has enlightened all.

    Send check in mail please.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #40 - December 02, 2013, 09:55 PM

    no. i think it says literally that allah is (continues to be) the one who expands/ the expander.

    i think the continuous action pertains to Allah, and not to the heavens.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #41 - December 02, 2013, 09:56 PM

    Then you confirm what I said? Then there is no discussion to be had. Bloody tafsir was all wrong.

    The Jedi has enlightened all.

    Send check in mail please.


    I dont understand what your saying TBH. Maybe you could clarify.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #42 - December 02, 2013, 09:57 PM

    Clarify what? Read my posts. No point copy and pasting when you shuld read.

    Read in the name of the Jedi who has instructed you.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #43 - December 02, 2013, 10:00 PM

    no. i think it says literally that allah is (continues to be) the one who expands/ the expander.

    i think the continuous action pertains to Allah, and not to the heavens.



    Incorrect. Allah says firstly that he has built the heavens. Then he says he is expanding it.

    Such as Allah says he has sent the Quran. And he is the one preserving it:


    ( إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَفِظُونَ)
    Surely We have sent the Reminder [Quran] and surely We are it’s Preserver. [Hafidhoon](Al Hijr 15:9)

    وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

    And the heaven We constructed with strength and surely We are it's expander. [Quran 51:47]
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #44 - December 02, 2013, 10:01 PM

    Clarify what? Read my posts. No point copy and pasting when you shuld read.

    Read in the name of the Jedi who has instructed you.


    Yeah just read it. I dont really get the point your making.

    I simply provided the linguistic understanding of the verse.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #45 - December 02, 2013, 10:04 PM

    Linguistic understanding = meaning = man made. Words do not have meaning per se but meaning is given to them.

    Rule 101 of linguistic analysis.

    ALL Islamic scholars = 0. Jedi = 1.

    No, I will not move to al-Azhar University.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #46 - December 02, 2013, 10:04 PM

    sssd
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #47 - December 02, 2013, 10:06 PM

    I accept your surrender.

    Jedi is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #48 - December 02, 2013, 10:08 PM

     Cheesy Smiley thnkyu
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #49 - December 02, 2013, 10:24 PM

    Hey Jedi.

    Hmm.. Jedi is a bad guy., he is cornering you ThatMuslimGuy . don't worry about him., but these words from you surprised me..

    Quote
    I wasn't doing any of that. I havnt claimed a "Scientific Miracle".

    I was simply detailing the Arabic meanings.

    You mean to say., there is no science or "Scientific Miracles" "Scientific discoveriores " in Quran??     Huh?

    Hu! may be I was wrong.,  I think I was reading wrong books like these
    Quote


    Damn I was reading all such silly books instead of reading Quran itself ThatMuslimGuy  .,.. Silly me..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #50 - December 02, 2013, 10:27 PM

    Older translations do not use the word expanding. See http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/051-qmt.php#051.047 Isaiah 40:22 can be interpreted to mean expanding as well. Hinduism philosophy can be interpreted to fit into the expanding universe and "Big Crunch"; the continual creation and destruction of the universe is equated to the outwards and inwards breaths of the gigantic cosmic Maha Vishnu. Nothing special or unique that was not found in other religions.

    Could you clean up your references. Every time I try to search for your tasfirs I get no where. Many of your English translation of the Tasfir names themselves are in error. When I try to search for these more often than not either there is no English translation or I am directed to one of your own spam/copy paste jobs all over the web, you get around a lot. Could you have proper references using a proper format using this site http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=3&tTafsirNo=93&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&LanguageId=2 With Tasfir and verse number.

    To me most of your wall of text is just throwing ideas against a wall until something sticks.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #51 - December 02, 2013, 10:35 PM

    Hey. Firstly there are no English translations for them. There in Arabic.

    Personally I dont care what translation say. I care what the Arabic says. And it is clear from Classical dictionaries its meanings.

    Furthermore Classical Tafsirs have gathered this meaning too well before any of these translations.

    In the future I should add the references.

    What do you mean? I detailed the Arabic meaning. As theyre seemed to be confusion about it on this thread. Added in some classical Tafsirs for good measure.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #52 - December 02, 2013, 10:38 PM

    xxx


    Hey,

    I never said theyre werent any "Scientific Miracles". I just said I wasnt claiming one here. I was discussing the Arabic meaning.

    I do find it funny though the amount of contentions im receiving even though previously someone posted some Arabic and everyone just nodded away.   Cheesy

    Maybe im doing something wrong.  Roll Eyes
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #53 - December 02, 2013, 10:38 PM

    Hey. Firstly there are no English translations for them. There in Arabic.

    Personally I dont care what translation say. I care what the Arabic says. And it is clear from Classical dictionaries its meanings.
     

    So why do you care what Arabic Quran says ThatMuslimGuy ? is it because it is said by Allah? or do you have any other reason for caring the Arabic Quran??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #54 - December 02, 2013, 10:41 PM

    Hey,

    I never said theyre werent any "Scientific Miracles". I just said I wasnt claiming one here. ..................


    well  by definition,  "if it is science then it is NOT miracle., if it is miracle then it is not science"

    Quote
    Maybe im doing something wrong.  Roll Eyes

    No.. no you are doing right and you are doing great ThatMuslimGuy.,  I just wanted to make sure that I understand what you are saying.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #55 - December 02, 2013, 10:45 PM

    So why do you care what Arabic Quran says ThatMuslimGuy ? is it because it is said by Allah? or do you have any other reason for caring the Arabic Quran??


    I honestly dont even get what your post is saying? The Quran is an Arabic book. So yeah that's why I wanna know what it says.

    Not to be rude but do you have anything useful to contribute to the word musioona?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #56 - December 02, 2013, 10:58 PM

    I honestly dont even get what your post is saying? The Quran is an Arabic book. So yeah that's why I wanna know what it says.

    Really? I though it is a universal book  and is a universal linguistic miracle
    Quote
    Not to be rude  but do you have anything useful to contribute to the word musioona?

    No..no you are NOT rude etal., well Here in CEMB i do something else ., but in other forums I do discuss science and Quran

    Quote


    hmm this is a good one

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3v9pUWaiI#t=47

    sweet..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #57 - December 02, 2013, 11:01 PM

    Wow sounds interesting. So what do you do exactly. Analyse the claims made and write rebuttals?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #58 - December 03, 2013, 12:08 AM

    Hey. Firstly there are no English translations for them. There in Arabic.

    Personally I dont care what translation say. I care what the Arabic says. And it is clear from Classical dictionaries its meanings.

    Furthermore Classical Tafsirs have gathered this meaning too well before any of these translations.

    In the future I should add the references.

    What do you mean? I detailed the Arabic meaning. As theyre seemed to be confusion about it on this thread. Added in some classical Tafsirs for good measure.


    The issue is I can not look up these Tafsirs to see if your translation agrees with proper linguistic translations. You care what the Arabic says but you are translating Arabic to English for us. It is the same thing the authors of the translation I cited are doing...  Your translation could be wrong in sentence structure and context. Even your own images show you are picking one of several meanings without citing any context as to why one definition is applied but not the others. Why is expand(ing) used instead of develop. Why are the other 7 or more meaning ruled out? Your quoted Tafsirs do nothing to support your cases as these are not about the verse in question. The few I was able to look up are indeed using the word you cite but in different verses about different things, events, abilities and people. The structure and meaning can be modified by the other words within the verse or just context in general. I also can not confirm your dictionary citation as proposed. It does mean expand but also means widen, make wide(r) or (more) spacious, broaden, enlarge, extend, expand, dilate; to amplify; to develop, elaborate (upon), to space (out). These words have different meaning in context and sentence structure. This is what happens when you translate one language to another. This is what happens when you piecemeal a translation. It loses context, intended meaning, phrase structure.

    I see piecemeal translation all the time and am fully aware of the issues with your methodology. For this reason alone I am asking you for better references. This is what I, and the rest of academy, expect to see. Author, Translation Author, Book, Publication, Year, Edition, Page, Format. Ex. Leroux, Marcel. Global Warming: Myth Or Reality?: The Erring Ways of Climatology. New York: Springer, 2005. Print. Why should I consider your translations correct and Pickthall's in error? Especially considering the flawed methods you have used I stated above. I need to be able to analysis your translation before even considering the meaning of the verse and it's interpretation.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #59 - December 03, 2013, 02:14 AM

    Firstly there are no English translations for them. There in Arabic.



    Then how did the quran I read in English come to be?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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