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 Topic: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations

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  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #120 - August 04, 2014, 08:25 PM
    According to the very suspect website Answering -christianity, there is a tafsir, prior to the science that expresses the  concept of an expanding universe.

    Quote
    - Tafsir alfayruz abadi (year 1414)

    means : we we are expanding it as we will.

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

     تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817


    Do we know if this is the accurate Arabic of the tafsir? and/or an accurate translation of the Arabic?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #121 - August 06, 2014, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on August 04, 2014, 08:25 PM
    According to the very suspect website Answering -christianity, there is a tafsir, prior to the science that expresses the  concept of an expanding universe.

     Tafsir alfayruz abadi (year 1414)

    means : we we are expanding it as we will.

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

     تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817


    Do we know if this is the accurate Arabic of the tafsir? and/or an accurate translation of the Arabic?


    The Arabic is from the tafseer quoted, but his translation is incorrect.

    The tafseer is simply following the standard tafseer of this verse repeated by all the classical tafseers, that Innaa la-Moosi'oon means: "Indeed we are capable/have the ability/capacity ذو سعة ) to do whatever we wish.

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }
    This is just the verse: "we are well able/have the capacity"

     لها ما نشاء
    And this is the tafseer he adds: "To do whatever we like with it (the heavens)"

    And just to show you this is what he means, here is what Tabari says about the same verse:

     { وَإنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يقول: لذو سعة بخلقها وخلق ما شئنا أن نخلقه

    <Innaa la-Moosi'oon> "he says: possessing capacity/power to create it (the heavens) and create whatever We will/wish to create"

    As you see, Tabari uses exactly the same words to explain this verse - he says: "Whatever We willed"  ما شئنا and the tafseer you quoted says the same thing, but uses the verb in the present tense: "Whatever We will" ما نشاء

    Wa aqoolu qawli haza wa astaghfirulaaha lee wa lakum.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #122 - August 06, 2014, 05:01 PM
    I've not really read much of that site: Answering-Christianity. But if this is indicative of what they write, then they are frankly dishonest. No other way of putting it.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #123 - August 06, 2014, 05:03 PM
    Ah, thu s3ah. That makes sense. I never thought to translate mu’si3oon as having ability/capacity to do something, but that is actually a perfect interpretation. I'm not sure I'd ever actually looked at the tafsir of that particular verse.

    Baarak Allahu feek ya shaykh.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #124 - August 06, 2014, 05:25 PM
    So, would it be more correct to say that the word Musi3oon actually derives from wus3 – to have the capacity or ability - as in, Laa yukallifullahu nafsan illa wus3ahaa?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #125 - August 06, 2014, 05:38 PM
    My thoughts: if we remember that "expanding" is a modern day interpretation in light of new insights about the universe, as well as the mufassiroon talking about a different meaning that "expanding", I would think that it would seem odd to claim this as some kind if miracle. So were generations upon generations, together with the first generations, deprived of this miracle? Why be so ambigious if this could be of use for humanity and the whole quran and science Roll Eyes I also read the verses before and after, and given the context I think that it would fit with the rest. God does whatever he wills with his might (punishing people and the whole flood), even create the heavens and the earth.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #126 - August 06, 2014, 05:47 PM
    That is true, and if we take into consideration the meaning of the word wus3, then even though it derives from the same root word as wasa3, it actually has nothing to do with widening/expanding. It actually is more like having the capacity or encompassing something through your ability. For example, “Fal yunfiq thu s3atin min s3atih” – “so let those with ability spend according to their ability.” It completely changes the interpretation and actually makes more sense. Below is a list of different meanings that can be derived from the root ws3.

    Quote
    وَسِع ( اسم ) :
    be capable (of) ; be in a position (to) ; can ; feasible for ; have or possess the ability or power (to) ; to afford to ; to be able (to) ; to be possible for
    وَسّع :
    amplify ; broaden ; cleave ; develop ; dilate ; divaricate ; diverge ; draw apart ; elaborate (upon) ; enlarge ; expand ; extend ; gap ; make an opening (in or between) ; make wide or spacious ; make wide(r) or (more) spacious ; open ; open out ; open up ; open wide ; part ; separate ; space (out) ; space out ; split ; spread (out) ; spread apart ; unfold ; widen - be capacious ; be roomy ; be spacious ; be vast ; be wide
    وسِعَ : استَوعَبَ
    accommodate
    - take up , hold, have capacity for
    - include as part of; merge with
    - to be composed of;have as parts or members
    - to have or hold within itself;be capable of holding
    - have room for
    - have space for
    - absoeb(facts, etc)
    - become aware of
    - convene; gather; contain; seat
    - to include something .
    - hold or contain
    - to include;take in
    -
    - cover
    - to include;compromise; extend over; be adequate for
    - acquire by gradually collecting a mass or pick a quantity of something or collect (grain, etc)
    - to be composed of;have as parts or members
    - to accumulate to excess;affect with congestion
    - to have or hold within itself;be capable of holding
    - bring or come together or bring together from a scattered places
    - draw (a general conclusion) from particular examples or evidence
    - have room for
    - have space for
    - compress, crowd
    - become aware of
    - convene; gather; contain; seat
    - amount in number to or find the total of or mount to .
    - hold or contain
    - to include;take in
    وَسِع : أحَاطَ بِـ
    comprehend ; comprise ; contain ; embrace ; encompass ; include
    -
    - encompass
    - to include a wide range of ideas,subjects,etc
    وَسَّعَ : زادَ منَ الاتِّساع
    gap
    - make gap
    - make or become wider
    وُسْع : طاقَة ، قُدْرَة
    ability ; capability ; capacity ; faculty ; power ; strength
    وسِعَ : قَدِرَ ، استَطَاع
    comprehend
    -
    - have the power or capacity to
    - be capable of
    - to be able to
    - succeed in doing
    - succeed in doing something
    - be able to ; be capable of
    - be able to ; be capable of


  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #127 - August 06, 2014, 06:57 PM
    When I look up the translations, these things caught my attention.
    Quote
    Sahih International
    And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
    Muhsin Khan
    With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
    Pickthall
    We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
    Yusuf Ali
    With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
    Shakir
    And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
    Dr. Ghali
    And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide.

    While the first one isn't explicit, it leaves the door open to anyone who wants to interpret that way, but what about Dr Ghali translation(modification?), and what does the Yusus Ali version mean by ''We who create the vastness of pace''
    http://quran.com/51
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #128 - August 06, 2014, 07:31 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 06, 2014, 05:25 PM
    So, would it be more correct to say that the word Musi3oon actually derives from wus3 – to have the capacity or ability - as in, Laa yukallifullahu nafsan illa wus3ahaa?


    You are spot on ya Sheikh! This is a quote from the tafseer of al-Zamakhshari, my favourite mufassir back in the day because he was a rationalist... well as close as one can get to being a rationalist within the confines of Islam lol. But more importantly - in regard to what we are talking about - he was an expert in Arabic Grammar - perhaps the greatest after Sibawayh. I started doing a Phd into his tafseer way back and still have it and his lexicography Asasul-Balagha.

    Anyway he said:

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون، من الوسع وهو الطاقة. والموسع: القوى على الإنفاق. وعن الحسن: لموسعون الرزق بالمطر. وقيل: جعلنا بينها وبين الأرض سعة

    (Innaa la-moosi'oon) Indeed we are able, from capacity/power (Wus' وسع), which is power/capacity and The Moosi' is the one who possesses great means/ability to give/provide. Al-Hasan narrated: Indeed he gives/provides (La-Moosi'oon) sustenance through the rain (he sends down). It is also said that we made spaciousness سعة between it (heavens) and the earth.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #129 - August 06, 2014, 07:34 PM
    To be fair this is the best of the "Scientific Miracles" claims, since it does have an argument that makes sense. But as the author of the book says - if only the many other verses in the Qur'an didn't so clearly present the ancient mythological view of space, one might give it some credibility.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #130 - August 06, 2014, 07:43 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 06, 2014, 07:31 PM
    I started doing a Phd into his tafseer way back and still have it and his lexicography Asasul-Balagha.

     

    A phd ?!  cool !

    So you were on your way to become an ulamah or prominent alim then ? 
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #131 - August 06, 2014, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 06, 2014, 07:31 PM
    You are spot on ya Sheikh! This is a quote from the tafseer of al-Zamakhshari, my favourite mufassir back in the day because he was a rationalist... well as close as one can get to being a rationalist within the confines of Islam lol. But more importantly - in regard to what we are talking about - he was an expert in Arabic Grammar - perhaps the greatest after Sibawayh. I started doing a Phd into his tafseer way back and still have it and his lexicography Asasul-Balagha.

    Anyway he said:

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون، من الوسع وهو الطاقة. والموسع: القوى على الإنفاق. وعن الحسن: لموسعون الرزق بالمطر. وقيل: جعلنا بينها وبين الأرض سعة

    (Innaa la-moosi'oon) Indeed we are able, from capacity/power (Wus' وسع), which is power/capacity and The Moosi' is the one who possesses great means/ability to give/provide. Al-Hasan narrated: Indeed he gives/provides (La-Moosi'oon) sustenance through the rain (he sends down). It is also said that we made spaciousness سعة between it (heavens) and the earth.


    That’s incredible. Mashkoor!  Afro
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #132 - August 06, 2014, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on August 06, 2014, 07:43 PM


    A phd ?!  cool !

    So you were on your way to become an ulamah or prominent alim then ? 


    Yeah I took a sabbatical break while I sorted out personal problems, but never got back to finish it.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #133 - August 06, 2014, 08:11 PM
    btw you will notice in Zamakhshari's tafseer that he gives two interpretations.

    1. Indeed We are well able.

    2. Indeed We made (it) expansive.

    And by relating the second opinion last and by saying Qeela (it's said that...) he is marking it out as the weaker opinion.

    He clearly takes the view that it means "Indeed we are able" from the meaning of capacity/power/ability/means etc... Firstly because he obviously believes that the verb أوسع يوسع conveys this meaning. But secondly because as it stands there is no object. It has a subject (Allah) but no object (the heavens) and had it meant "Indeed we made (it) expansive one would have expected it to have either the noun "heavens" or the pronoun "ها" - instead it is in the same vein as the other places where Allah ends verses with things like لقادرون
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #134 - August 06, 2014, 08:18 PM
    Right. I noticed he said "wa qeela," which is really just a way of mentioning other, weaker opinions. The lack of an object is also telling. This is really insightful stuff. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront like this. This interpretation certainly makes more sense.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #135 - August 06, 2014, 08:20 PM
    btw one of the most awesome resources on the internet is this site:

    http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=0&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=no&LanguageID=1

    I would have absolutely LOVED to have such a resource back in the late 70s and early 80s when I was a student at SOAS. I had to lug huge volumes back from Egypt lol.

    Now there is a whole fucking library of tafseers at your finger-tips. All laid out so you just choose sura, verse, and tafseer of you choice and there it is.

    Mashallah!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #136 - August 06, 2014, 08:21 PM
    Even if we take the latter, weaker opinion he mentioned, it would still be referring to the space between the sky and the earth, which really has nothing at all to do with the big bang.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #137 - August 06, 2014, 08:24 PM
    Oh gosh, yes. The idea of continually expanding the universe is a modern interpretation that is not found in classical tafseers at all.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #138 - August 06, 2014, 09:50 PM
    The Bible also has 8 verses which describe the stretching, extend, spread and/or expanding of the heavens in translations to English. Of course the word has other meaning which do not match any BB theory
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #139 - August 07, 2014, 08:50 PM
    Do you know what verses are they, Bogart?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #140 - August 07, 2014, 09:07 PM
    There's a number of them. Here's one:

    "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." Isaiah 40:22 http://biblehub.com/isaiah/40-22.htm
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #141 - August 07, 2014, 09:11 PM
    Thanks  Smiley

    I can't see any "continually expanding" idea there tbh - maybe I'm missing something, but it did strike me how similar this description is to the Qur'an, I mean the canopy and tent bits.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #142 - August 10, 2014, 10:15 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 07, 2014, 08:50 PM
    Do you know what verses are they, Bogart?


    Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been searching for responses properly lately, been in a browsing mode for awhile. I will have to look those up again. Do you want details like translations, transliteration, Hebrew lexicons, etc? Keep in mind that just like Arabic new definitions are added due to translations between languages. New English word definitions are applied to Hebrew. Its the same tactic of taking a word well beyond context and definition in order to retrofit it to modern knowledge.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #143 - August 10, 2014, 11:04 PM
    Quote
    I will have to look those up again. Do you want details like translations, transliteration, Hebrew lexicons, etc?


    These are from my notes and it may help with your search

    http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Heaven_(Judaism)#.22Raqiya.22
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html

    I have read Jews, Christians, Hindus and Muslims making the claim that their texts mention the "expansion of the universe". I realized this couldn't be a coincidence and then saw that they were all using the same type of argument. It was all semantics. Find a phrase that says something like "The Sky is very big" and then claim that the original word for "big" is relatable to the English word "expand" and then jump to the conclusion that this is about the expansion of space.

    Here is an example of a Christian apologist doing this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFbVUcRpTpo
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #144 - August 10, 2014, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 10, 2014, 10:15 PM
    Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been searching for responses properly lately, been in a browsing mode for awhile. I will have to look those up again. Do you want details like translations, transliteration, Hebrew lexicons, etc? Keep in mind that just like Arabic new definitions are added due to translations between languages. New English word definitions are applied to Hebrew. Its the same tactic of taking a word well beyond context and definition in order to retrofit it to modern knowledge.


    Just a translation, but I can see it's in the video Capt has posted, so not to worry.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #145 - August 10, 2014, 11:52 PM
    Quote from: captndisguise on August 10, 2014, 11:04 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFbVUcRpTpo


    I love this - haha - just the same shit Muslims apologists talk.

    Have you got an example of it in the Hindu scriptures? Or a video like that of a Hindu explaining it?

    I can see Muslims saying - Yeah of course God says it in the Bible - it's the same God - it's the other parts of the Bible that's corrupt.

    But they can't do that about the Hindu scriptures.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #146 - August 11, 2014, 12:12 AM
    Abu Ali,

    I couldn't find the exact site I was looking for but search for "Vedic Science" or "Science in the Vedas" and you will see that it is a big deal on the net for many people. I haven't looked much into it myself since I realize I won't be able to verify any of these claims (no time to learn Sanskrit as well)

    Here is just one example, this article that was in the Huffington Post, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mauricio-garrido/vedic-cosmology-integrating-god-and-physics_b_4612413.html

    It says "The Vedic literatures see the manifestation and eventual destruction of the universe, like most events in nature, as a periodic occurrence and give it in trillions of years. In fact, they talk about an expansion of the universe after its inception and an eventual contraction at the end of its lifespan, in line with modern cosmology's concepts of inflation and/or dark energy. ".

    Vedic apologists are also fond of Carl Sagan because he, in one of the episodes of Cosmos, said that the Vedas where the only ancient scriptures to get the billion-year scale of the universe correctly. So on and so forth...
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #147 - February 25, 2015, 12:50 AM
    RIP Harakat - such a clever kid  Cry
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #148 - February 24, 2016, 02:28 PM
    13:2 It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne and made subject the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.
    The Arabic word رَفَعَ was mistranlated to erected,its suppose to mean raised.

    So is Allah raising the heavens or did he raised it.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #149 - February 24, 2016, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 10, 2014, 11:52 PM
    I love this - haha - just the same shit Muslims apologists talk.

    Have you got an example of it in the Hindu scriptures? Or a video like that of a Hindu explaining it?

    I can see Muslims saying - Yeah of course God says it in the Bible - it's the same God - it's the other parts of the Bible that's corrupt.

    But they can't do that about the Hindu scriptures.

    There are Hindus who say stupid things too. But the fight is between Islam and Christianity. So I recommend Hindus stay out of it.
    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
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