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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Which one (if any) are you more inclined to side with? (Give reasons)
  • Israel - 50 (30.5%)
  • Palestine - 114 (69.5%)
  • Total Voters: 163

 Topic: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?

 (Read 202508 times)
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  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #930 - September 08, 2015, 07:01 PM

    Hmm,  well I didn't take it personally at all, I'm not getting offended so easily and being offended I don't think is a bad thing. In fact reading back I didn't understand what you meant and I apologise for this. You're right about this and I can only blame me for this.  The fact that I'm still struggling with English is only my fault. Sorry.

    About solution, I stated mine,  I was criticized for it rightly or wrongly. I don't think these people can coexist together in peace. I do think that this is a religious conflict, before an israelian-arab one and I won't explain again why, just my opinion. I also think the settlement policy is wrong,  although Israel thinks in the long run will pay off for them. But I also think arabs will never accept the 67  borders status which makes israel not to back off. Taking the lands away from people is very wrong but targeting innocent people is even worse. Extremism is not the solution. Unfortunately both sides are getting toward this, one more than the other, both thinking is the only solution left.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #931 - September 09, 2015, 08:03 AM

    So because Israel is with power  they should be first held accountable? I say both.


    Israeli is a nation-state thus is bound to international law while Palestine is not a nation-state. However this is a difference is how one is accountable rather then the order of which accountability is place. Since Palestine is not a unified state we can not hold what does not exist accountable for it's non-existent actions. We can only hold groups accountable where as Israeli has a sovereign government which has committed acts as a sovereign state. International court systems, along with being a nation-state, makes this process easier to accomplish. While in Palestine we would have to send in forces to arrest, charge, detain and move groups/individuals to be held accountable. Also due to the occupation no political entity in Palestine is sovereign thus Israeli would be the only state which could be charged for Palatinate issues as it is the sovereign government of the occupied territories.   

    So if you want both to be held accountable at the same time by the same standards Palestine must become a sovereign state which is a core issue to the whole conflict. You are putting the horse before the wagon.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #932 - September 09, 2015, 08:11 AM

    Hmm,  well I didn't take it personally at all, I'm not getting offended so easily and being offended I don't think is a bad thing. In fact reading back I didn't understand what you meant and I apologise for this. You're right about this and I can only blame me for this.  The fact that I'm still struggling with English is only my fault. Sorry.

    About solution, I stated mine,  I was criticized for it rightly or wrongly. I don't think these people can coexist together in peace. I do think that this is a religious conflict, before an israelian-arab one and I won't explain again why, just my opinion. I also think the settlement policy is wrong,  although Israel thinks in the long run will pay off for them. But I also think arabs will never accept the 67  borders status which makes israel not to back off. Taking the lands away from people is very wrong but targeting innocent people is even worse. Extremism is not the solution. Unfortunately both sides are getting toward this, one more than the other, both thinking is the only solution left.


    The idea that this is a religious conflict is not unfounded. However you should acknowledge this has gone well beyond religion. The international power plays behind this conflict are historical facts. Like others have pointed out in this thread would each faction "accomplish" the same results without foreign aid from the Soviets, French, English and Americans? Would the situation even be the same? 20/20 hindsight and all.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #933 - September 09, 2015, 08:20 AM

    Israeli is a nation-state thus is bound to international law while Palestine is not a nation-state. However this is a difference is how one is accountable rather then the order of which accountability is place. Since Palestine is not a unified state we can not hold what does not exist accountable for it's non-existent actions. We can only hold groups accountable where as Israeli has a sovereign government which has committed acts as a sovereign state. International court systems, along with being a nation-state, makes this process easier to accomplish. While in Palestine we would have to send in forces to arrest, charge, detain and move groups/individuals to be held accountable. Also due to the occupation no political entity in Palestine is sovereign thus Israeli would be the only state which could be charged for Palatinate issues as it is the sovereign government of the occupied territories.   

    So if you want both to be held accountable at the same time by the same standards Palestine must become a sovereign state which is a core issue to the whole conflict. You are putting the horse before the wagon.


    So we cannot held Palestinian National Authority accountable or Hamas government? Not by the same standard yes, but still we should.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #934 - September 09, 2015, 08:24 AM

    The idea that this is a religious conflict is not unfounded. However you should acknowledge this has gone well beyond religion. The international power plays behind this conflict are historical facts. Like others have pointed out in this thread would each faction "accomplish" the same results without foreign aid from the Soviets, French, English and Americans? Would the situation even be the same? 20/20 hindsight and all.

    Fully agree.

  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #935 - September 09, 2015, 09:06 AM

    So we cannot hold Palestinian National Authority accountable or Hamas government? Not by the same standard yes, but still we should.


    No as Israeli restricts it's capability to run a proper state nor is it part of the national system of government as a member of the state as any other area or city of Israeli is treated. We can only hold PNA responsible for it's own acts not those that the facade of control, "granted" while still under occupation, are supposedly under the ONA. It ability to regulate internal matters is still under the control of Israeli. Like I said it is easily to go after a state than it is to go after a group. This is the key factor that many seem to ignore. One is a state, the other is a group.

    There are two forms of government Israeli withholds from the occupied territories. One is the mentioned equal member status as a proper area of Israeli. Without this status Israeli is not bound by it's own internal law and rights of it's citizens. If you are not a citizen you have no rights under the state as a citizen. This enables Israeli to do as it pleases. Look at your own rights as a citizen. I am not going to assume to many ideas since I do not know Romanian law well (Romania right?). So lets assume as a citizen your property can not be searched without a warrant. As a non-citizen you would not have this right thus the government is not bound by your legal rights. If my example is off you can provide an example of a right you have which restricts the government from taking unjustified or illegal acts against you. You can post the example or keep it to yourself I think my point is fine either way,

    The second form is deny nation-state status. This prevent equal status under international law thus prevents as hypothetical state from pressing issues in international court as a state vs another state. The people of the "state" are citizen of a sovereign nation thus have rights under international law. So again people become non-citizens of the nation of control and off their own state. It would also be illegal for Israeli to take actions against citizens of another state in the manner they do. Moving the IDF into the new state would be an act of war.

    In the end the only state which can be held responsible as a state is Israeli. As I said it is easier to go after a state in international court then a group. The track record of going after groups has only been effective with active participation of the state the group is within. Israeli has not done this. The less effective means have been to ignore international law and use military force in violation of a sovereign nations territory. This does not happen since the active busybody nation is America which is allied with Israeli.

    The end result is a lot of finger pointing with zero action as those that are point fingers the most withhold the very means of which accountability and consequences can be addressed.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #936 - September 09, 2015, 10:54 AM

    I also think the settlement policy is wrong,  although Israel thinks in the long run will pay off for them.

    In the long run it will ensure their destruction.

    (I should add that though I can feel it in me waters, I have no peer-reviewed evidence for this.)
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #937 - September 09, 2015, 11:22 AM

    No as Israeli restricts it's capability to run a proper state nor is it part of the national system of government as a member of the state as any other area or city of Israeli is treated. We can only hold PNA responsible for it's own acts not those that the facade of control, "granted" while still under occupation, are supposedly under the ONA. It ability to regulate internal matters is still under the control of Israeli. Like I said it is easily to go after a state than it is to go after a group. This is the key factor that many seem to ignore. One is a state, the other is a group.

    There are two forms of government Israeli withholds from the occupied territories. One is the mentioned equal member status as a proper area of Israeli. Without this status Israeli is not bound by it's own internal law and rights of it's citizens. If you are not a citizen you have no rights under the state as a citizen. This enables Israeli to do as it pleases. Look at your own rights as a citizen. I am not going to assume to many ideas since I do not know Romanian law well (Romania right?). So lets assume as a citizen your property can not be searched without a warrant. As a non-citizen you would not have this right thus the government is not bound by your legal rights. If my example is off you can provide an example of a right you have which restricts the government from taking unjustified or illegal acts against you. You can post the example or keep it to yourself I think my point is fine either way,

    The second form is deny nation-state status. This prevent equal status under international law thus prevents as hypothetical state from pressing issues in international court as a state vs another state. The people of the "state" are citizen of a sovereign nation thus have rights under international law. So again people become non-citizens of the nation of control and off their own state. It would also be illegal for Israeli to take actions against citizens of another state in the manner they do. Moving the IDF into the new state would be an act of war.

    In the end the only state which can be held responsible as a state is Israeli. As I said it is easier to go after a state in international court then a group. The track record of going after groups has only been effective with active participation of the state the group is within. Israeli has not done this. The less effective means have been to ignore international law and use military force in violation of a sovereign nations territory. This does not happen since the active busybody nation is America which is allied with Israeli.

    The end result is a lot of finger pointing with zero action as those that are point fingers the most withhold the very means of which accountability and consequences can be addressed.


    Look, I understand some of your points, but Palestinian government is not just a group. It was elected by their people, it has responsibilities. Hamas was elected by the people. It is not just black and white.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #938 - September 09, 2015, 11:22 AM

    In the long run it will ensure their destruction.

    (I should add that though I can feel it in me waters, I have no peer-reviewed evidence for this.)

    Also my opinion.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #939 - October 07, 2015, 09:21 PM

    "Those disguised as Arabs" @AFP crew captures #Israeli undercover agents shooting #Palestinian protesters  http://blogs.afp.com/correspondent/?post%2Fthose-disguised-as-arabs-israeli-agents-at-work-amid-palestinian-protesters

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlLLiT5m0o&t=39
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #940 - October 09, 2015, 04:56 PM

    Israeli forces kill at least six Palestinian protesters in Gaza: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/israel-opens-fire-palestinians-gaza-border-151009114132806.html
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #941 - October 09, 2015, 04:57 PM

    Noam Sheizaf - Israel still holds all the cards
    Quote
    Thirteen years passed between the First Intifada, which broke out in December 1987, and the start of the second in October 2000. Both intifadas lasted for roughly five years. It has been 15 years since the start of the Second Intifada, and 10 years since it ended.

    If history and experience teach us anything, the timeframe is exactly right for the arrival of a new generation of young Palestinians who are willing to confront Israel — like their big brothers did, and before them, their parents. That theory also holds if you look at the profile of those carrying out the stabbing attacks and those taking part in demonstrations in recent days — mostly people under the age of 20.

    The events of the past few weeks are not an intifada. Attacks and demonstrations against Israeli symbols and targets, civilian and military alike, have taken place since the 1970s with varying frequency. The intifadas, on the other hand, were characterized by an uprising that saw an almost across-the-board mobilization of the whole of Palestinian society and its institutions (although the Second Intifada quickly became an armed struggle carried out by a relatively small number of militants).

    The current situation is different. Even Netanyahu has been forced to admit that the Palestinian Authority is not taking part in the current unrest. Things are centered in East Jerusalem, which is under direct Israeli control, and not in the West Bank. That also demonstrates why Israel will do everything it can to prevent the collapse of the PA, thereby preventing a return to the pre-Oslo situation, something for which a number of demagogues on the Israeli Right are calling. The PA, as Israel’s security contractor, is far more efficient at maintaining the peace than the Shin Bet or IDF ever were. Israel will only dispose of it only when it completely stops performing its role.
    ....

    Read on: http://972mag.com/israel-still-holds-all-the-cards/112510/
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #942 - October 09, 2015, 07:02 PM

    Just returned from demonstration at Nahal Oz border. Many unarmed protestors shot at random. It's a turkey shoot for Israeli soldiers.

    I saw 1 protestor shot in the head, another in the chest, another appeared to be in the face, and several in the legs.

    None of the protestors presented any threat to heavily armed Israeli soldiers. The rocks they threw didn't even come close.

  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #943 - October 13, 2015, 04:30 PM

    Mya Guarnieri - Which is the 'right' side of the Green Line these days?

    http://972mag.com/which-is-the-right-side-of-the-green-line/112612/
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #944 - October 13, 2015, 06:11 PM

    Snipped from a Gazan activist (Facebook-link):

    Quote from:
    "Kareem Abu Sharia"
    I was sitting in waiting room waiting my turn to the dentist .. the TV was on Al Aqsa channel , so I was forced to listen to Hamas news! they are encouraging to stabbing and killing , after that sense of encouraging for stabbing, they show Palestinian child suffering before death !

    NO not that what we want , popular resistance against occupation is not stabbing and murdering! and this how we harm ourselves more than Israel propaganda ever did !

    this is not self defense , this is crime , what I wish to our children I wish it for Jewish children , THIS IS NOT IN MY NAME

    how can we ask world for protection while we stab civilians in the streets ? how can we ask for protection to our children while we are ready to do the same for other children , this is totally hypocrisy and not popular resistance !

    I wish someone shut down this channel , i was resting my mind from it , I haven't watched that channel for years , they are worse than Israel right wing brainwashing


    Also left this response:

    Quote from: Nikolaj
    Very disappointing but also very predictable... :(

    This is exactly what the current Israeli leadership, the West Bank settler movements and all the power-fapping Zionist supremacists across the world want to see - and the Hamas leadership and friends are playing their role in this living recurring nightmare perfectly and in the process guaranteeing that random Palestinians will be seen as sub-humans who are better dead than alive - even with people arguing that the Israelis are doing them a favour by killing them as they are guaranteed to be shuhada of the highest order....

    And again the Hitler- and "kill all Jews"-memes are flowing across the social medias... (by my observation mostly from Pakistani males, though... Numbers might be a factor here...)


    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #945 - October 14, 2015, 12:22 AM

    Look, I understand some of your points, but Palestinian government is not just a group. It was elected by their people, it has responsibilities. Hamas was elected by the people. It is not just black and white.


    The Oslo Accords are dead thus Hamas is not a legitimate government by international agreement. It has repeatedly been branded as terrorist as by a number of nations. Both sides have violated the Accords repeatedly. The only power which Hamas exercises as a government is what Israeli allows or not. Hence why Israeli will deploy troops when it wishes. Which is illegal if the Oslo Accords are to be followed.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #946 - October 29, 2015, 11:21 PM

    Palestinians fear that recognizing the Jewish nature of Israel means endorsing and making permanent the state's discrimination against its Palestinian citizens. Asking Palestinians to recognize Israel as a “Jewish state” has been likened to asking American Jews and other non-Christians to officially recognize the United States as a “Christian state.” 

    Quote
    RECOGNIZING ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE

    In 1988, the PLO recognized the state of Israel. This was considered a major and historic compromise on the part of the Palestinians, who effectively renounced claim to 78% of historic Palestine. (See map here.)
    In 1993, the PLO and the government of Israel exchanged official letters in which the Palestinians formally recognized “the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security,” while in return Israel acknowledged the PLO as the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people.
    The demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as a “Jewish state” only appeared in 2001, when officials in the Bush administration began mentioning it. Prior to that, Palestinians had only been asked to agree to Israel’s existence as a state. Only in 2007 did Israeli officials begin demanding that the Palestinians formally recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state would mean acquiescing in the permanentsecond-class status of Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up about 20% of the population. Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state would mean renouncing at the outset of negotiations the internationally recognized right of Palestinian refugees to return to the land and homes that they were expelled from during Israel’s creation. Asking Palestinians to recognize Israel as a “Jewish state” is akin to asking American Jews and other non-Christians to officially recognize the United States as a “Christian state.”

    http://imeu.org/article/recognizing-israel-as-a-jewish-state




    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #947 - October 30, 2015, 08:27 AM

    Quote from: utopianmurrelet
    I could go on for hours about this horrible conflict but to keep it short. From my study/research of the conflict and by debating with people, I have learned that: (1) Israel has no plans for a Palestinian State (2) They certainly do not want Palestinians to have control over their own region. (3) The Zionists in Israel will never make peace with Palestinians or it's Arab neighbors. There is too much hatred on both sides. They will not settle for anything less than Israel with Jerusalem as it's capital.

    Taking all these facts into consideration, they still try to justify their harsh treatment and wars in Gaza. They have told plenty of lies to keep up the appearance of trying to find a two State solution and at the same time building illegal settlements on Palestinian lands and knocking down their houses. How in the world do they manage to keep straight faces when talking such bullshite? That is when I lose it. All you have to do is watch some lectures on YouTube by Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky and Miko Peled [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ] - All Jewish sources to know whats going on. I have even tried to make a case that not all Muslims are against the creation of a peaceful State of Israel using verses from the Qur'an. Historically speaking Muslims have not always hated Jews but they refuse to listen to any amount of facts thrown at them. There is no hope.


    You speak a lot of truth about what Israel does, many wrong things indeed.

    But, what do you think of Palestinians using verses from the Quran or from Hadiths to kill Israeli civilians? What do you think of Hamas? Do you think that if Israel will return to the 67' borders, there will be peace?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #948 - October 30, 2015, 06:39 PM

    Quote
    You speak a lot of truth about what Israel does, many wrong things indeed.

    But, what do you think of Palestinians using verses from the Quran or from Hadiths to kill Israeli civilians? What do you think of Hamas? Do you think that if Israel will return to the 67' borders, there will be peace?


    Like all religious books, you can find verses and quotes that you can personally 'translate' to justify your moral or immoral behavior. This helps recruit more foolish people for their cause/agenda. I hope you know that Israel does the same. Israeli schools teach children to hate Islam and Palestinians. Both actions are unjustified. Therefore the wise conclusion would to be blame both sides.

    Hamas is a useful tool for Israel. They keep the Israeli propaganda machine rolling. I believe that Hamas are a terrorist group but are purposefully kept alive. If Israel wanted to remove Hamas, they'd ask for help from the U.N and U.S to use 'special operations' inside Gaza, it's such a small place so they really can't hide. But why remove a useful idiot?

    Here is an article by Israeli official Avner Cohen:

    "How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas"

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

    Israel will never return to pre-67 borders and they will not have peace in the region. One side will have to go and it looks like Palestinians will eventually go. Half will be wiped out and other half forced out into Jordan and other surrounding Arab States. This will not mean peace for Israel but further wars for 100's of years.


    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #949 - October 30, 2015, 06:48 PM

    Interesting idea that Hamas is purposely left active. I'll have to look into that, I'm curious to see if there's anything on it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #950 - October 30, 2015, 07:01 PM

    Quote
    Interesting idea that Hamas is purposely left active. I'll have to look into that, I'm curious to see if there's anything on it.


    Please do, 'The Wall Street Journal' is a credible source. I can also provide other credible sources of needed.

    "Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas"

    "US Congressman Ron Paul - Israel created Hamas to destabilize Arafat who was very powerful at the time"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27esxkQtfTc

    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #951 - October 30, 2015, 07:19 PM

    If you can find verses and quotes that can be translated to justify killing innocent peoplee or other bad behaviour then that religious book is flawed and should be amended.

    I think if Israel wants to remove Hamas they could be as successful as USA with the talibans. Anyways let's suppose they want to go back to 67 borders.  Do you think it will bring peace?

    Also what with those maps?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #952 - October 30, 2015, 07:41 PM

    Quote
    If you can find verses and quotes that can be translated to justify killing innocent peoplee or other bad behaviour then that religious book is flawed and should be amended.


    It does get 'amended' into the minds of those who translate it for peaceful, spiritual and moral purposes. Which is the case 99.9% of the time. Humans are flawed not the books.

    Quote
    I think if Israel wants to remove Hamas they could be as successful as USA with the talibans.

    You're comparing Apples with Oranges. Flawed logic.

    Quote
    Anyways let's suppose they want to go back to 67 borders.  Do you think it will bring peace?


    Very unlikely in both hypothesis.

    Quote
    Also what with those maps?


    Palestine being wiped of the map. What else do you see?

    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #953 - October 30, 2015, 08:41 PM

    Ideas are flawed as well,  you know very well this. And the problem with Quran is that it doesn't have to be 'translated' to justify killing innocent people or other bad behaviours, it's enough to be taken literally.

    I think I compare red apples with green ones,  but you're right, Israel is much better at dealing with Islam.

    Ahh yes historical maps. I'm on my mobile  phone but I can provide some historical maps as well, as for example an Anatolian map in 1914 or an European map in 1939. Do you think the descendants of those expelled Germans, Armenians or Assiryans(for the former two at least those who have escaped) should have the right of return as well? Or NO because it appears that they have moved on? History is full of such injustices,  I can go even further down. Why should be different with the Arabs?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #954 - October 30, 2015, 08:43 PM

    You speak a lot of truth about what Israel does, many wrong things indeed.

    But, what do you think of Palestinians using verses from the Quran or from Hadiths to kill Israeli civilians? What do you think of Hamas? Do you think that if Israel will return to the 67' borders, there will be peace?


    I hate to beat a dead horse but like I've said before, there are far and away more verses in the Bible about killing your neighbors than there are verses in the Quran about the same. Also passages in the Talmud, which is where modern Judaism *actually* comes from. The Talmud is very clear about non-Jews being donkeys, and that you can use them as slaves or take advantage of any other way you can make money off them, you can't have sex with them (let alone marry them) because that's bestiality, and if they get too "troublesome," just kill them, there's no death penalty for that like there is for killing other Jews. The Torah (and Joshua, which is basically an extension of the Torah), when it talks about killing neighboring tribes for no reason, is far more evil than the Quran or Hadith. Most of the time, it says to kill everyone--combatant or non-combatant, man or woman, old or young. Sometimes it goes so far as to say to destroy the arable land and kill all the livestock. The rest of the time, it says to kill everyone except the virgin girls, who are to be kept as sex slaves.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #955 - October 30, 2015, 09:23 PM

    Ohh, Hi Gal. I'm glad you are okay.

    You are indeed beating a dead horse.  You are putting all these religions in the same basket when there's obviously quite important differences. As for example,  the concept of martyrdom, a book being the word of God or not, the supposed lives, characters and what those supposed prophets did, as many followers are trying to emulate their examples, .etc. 

    You don't think that that 99% of suicide bombers being Muslims is just an accident, right? There are external factors of course but still... Also that the majority of terrorist organisations are Islamic. Also an accident?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #956 - October 30, 2015, 09:50 PM

    You are putting all these religions in the same basket when there's obviously quite important differences. As for example,  the concept of martyrdom, a book being the word of God or not, the supposed lives, characters and what those supposed prophets did, as many followers are trying to emulate their examples, .etc. 

    You don't think that that 99% of suicide bombers being Muslims is just an accident, right? There are external factors of course but still... Also that the majority of terrorist organisations are Islamic. Also an accident?


    The concept of martyrdom certainly does exist in Judaism. But it's a less good option than just murdering your enemies.   That's also a factor in the suicide bomber rates: if you look at just the number of civilians being killed by ALL bombs and missiles, then Israel is certainly being at least as aggressive, if not more aggressive. But they happen to have missiles that they can use from further away (well, it's not really that it just "happened", it's that they're being bankrolled by American evangelical Christians, but that's another story). Both sides are using the tools that are available to them. The Israelis have tools that mean they can kill without getting their hands dirty from pretty far away. The Palestinians have limited access to missiles, but they're nearly impossible to aim, meaning that if they want to actually do damage, they basically have to get close enough to be in the blast radius to use an explosive.

    As for the concept of a book being the word of God, why on earth would you think Jews don't have that? In fact, they have something that is arguably worse: the belief that God's word is fallible (or at least, human understanding of God's word is fallible), but the rabbis (meaning sanhedrin, not the modern usage, but a lot of modern usage rabbis try to argue that they should be included too) are infallible, and you must obey them.

    As for the supposed lives of the characters/prophets: you're talking complete drivel. Moses killed civilians and ordered the deaths of civilians. His nephew's son, Phinehas, murdered a man for having sex with a non-Jewish woman, and God was apparently so pleased, he made Phinehas' descendants the high priests. Joshua, the successor of Moses, led and ordered wars of extermination. He promised his daughter in marriage to whoever could murder an entire city the fastest.  The first Israelite king, Saul, was dethroned and murdered with his whole family by God for not exterminating an entire city and sparing the lives of some non-combatants and animals. There are tons more stories like that. So I have literally no clue where you're getting the idea that the lives of the prophets in the Bible aren't violent. You've obviously never read the Bible.

    As for the majority of terrorist organizations being Islamic--that entirely depends on your definition of "terrorism". If you only use it to include religious extremist groups containing more than X hundred members, then maybe. But if you use it to describe any group whose intention is to use fear to achieve a goal of controlling, intimidating, silencing, or otherwise destroying people or groups that are in opposition to their stated goals, be they political, financial, etc...then no, it absolutely is not true, the South American drug trade contains a much, much higher number of terrorist groups, and Christian extremist groups that are small cells of insanity inflicting their violence on insiders and their close contacts outnumber Muslim terrorist groups.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #957 - October 30, 2015, 11:33 PM

    nbhb,

    Sadly, I have been through all these Ad nauseam, Ad-infinitum 'rebuttals' and 'refutation' and circular arguments. I have no idea how I got trapped into this awful discussion. I can sit here all day posting Jewish sources to make my points but people like you will criticize them as being "self-haters" and "anti-Semites" or play the Holocaust cards... nobody wins in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Both sides are losers.

    Here is something to keep you entertained. I love the song and the video. Please listen  Smiley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

    gal_from_usa,

    Excellent posts. Proof if ever was needed that any religious book can be used to promote peace or justify violence. And certain context must always be applied. Thanks


    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #958 - October 30, 2015, 11:39 PM

    Jesus!!! suicide bombing is the same as firing missiles?  Don't try to prove someone wrong everywhere, it's a bad strategy, concentrate where he really is. By doing this, you are also give the impression that you are arguing for the sake of it. The concept of martyrdom is different in Islam from the other two. Full stop.

    There are clear differences between these three. If you think that Islam being more violent than the other two is just an accident, you are sorry to say and apologise if you feel offended , very ignorant.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #959 - October 30, 2015, 11:51 PM

    Quote
    suicide bombing is the same as firing missiles?

    Quote
    Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism is Robert Pape's analysis of suicide terrorism from a strategic, social, and psychological point of view. It is based on a database he has compiled at the University of Chicago, where he directs the Chicago Project on Security and Terrorism. The book's conclusions are based on data from 315 suicide terrorism attacks around the world from 1980 through 2003. Of these, 301 were classified into 18 different campaigns by 11 different groups; the remaining 14 appear to have been isolated. Published in May 2005, Pape's volume has been widely noticed by the press, the public, and policymakers alike, and has earned praise from the likes of Peter Bergen, Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas),[1] and Michael Scheuer.[2]

    Pape claims to have compiled the world's first "database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003—315 attacks in all" (3). "The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions. ... Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (4). It is important that Americans understand this growing phenomenon (4–7).

    --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win



    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
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