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 Topic: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad

 (Read 10185 times)
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  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     OP - March 06, 2011, 12:40 AM


    Details on the Sheikh under the letter, which has appeared on a few Islamic message boards. Its worth reading in full, the tone and the rhetoric is most interesting of all. I've bolded some passages, the egregious ones, and the dawah ones in particular.





    ++++++


    To
    The Rt. Hon. David Cameron
    Prime Minister
    10 Downing Street

    Dear Mr Cameron

    In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

    “For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.” ( The saying of Abraham, Quran 6:79)

    We are deeply dismayed by your statements made in the Munich Security Conference on the 5th February 2011. Your speech was misleading, ill-timed, counter-productive. You have insulted the Muslims you are meant to serve and have demonstrated a  failure to understand the Muslims and their faith.   A Muslim, literally, means one who has submitted his will to God. We bow our head in prayer to Allah, five times a day, in submission to Him and Him alone. We only have one Master, and we are Muslims first. Our beliefs in our values, and in what we hold to be right and wrong is dictated not from an elected parliament, but from Allah (God) as revealed in the Quran and the teaching of last Messenger, Muhammed (Peace be upon him) and consensus of the Muslims. Furthermore, we believe that this life is a test, that after our death we are accountable before Allah on a Day of Judgement, and we will  all be given recompense according to our deeds. This, above all, is what motivates us:

    3:185 Every human being is bound to taste death: but only on the Day of Resurrection will you be requited in full [for whatever you have done] – whereupon he that shall be drawn away from the fire and brought into paradise will indeed have gained a triumph: for the life of this world is nothing but an enjoyment of self-delusion.

    We readily accept and work to strengthen the meritorious institutions of  British society, especially those that exist because of the common origin of the Muslim and Judaeo-Christian tradition that British values were derived from: of honesty and moral integrity; of altruism and neighbourliness;  of social, political, and economic justice. We  encourage Muslims to  do whatever they can, even while being a minority, to assist in increasing the general good and minimising harm in society, even if it be by an act as small as removing something harmful from a walker’s path. We seek to work towards a peaceful society in Britain.

    We encourage Muslims to work for the benefit of the people of Britain, for no one’s sake but Allah’s. We will go further to say that we endeavour to work with greater sincerity for the betterment of Britain and its people than any Prime Minister or an elected parliament does, for we seek no worldly gain. We would be insincere citizens if we failed to share with Britons what we believe will bring them peace and tranquility in this life and in the hereafter. Our  role models are the Prophets of God, among them Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed (peace be upon them all). As one Prophet  said:

    “I wish not, in opposition to you, to do that which I forbid you to do. I only desire your betterment to the best of my power; and my success can only come from Allah. In Him I trust, and unto Him I look. “

    But Muslims will not be bullied by ‘muscular liberalism’ into compromising on their teachings and the principles of their  faith as Christiandom and others may have done, nor will we be forced to embrace values that oppose the faith of millions of Muslims in Britain, Europe and the world over. Interpretations of British values change as governments do, and what may be in keeping with liberal values may be completely unacceptable to our belief, whether it be mocking God and His Prophets, the alcohol culture with all its ills, and any cohabiting out of wedlock between man and woman, this being the only relationship Islam recognises. Are we still to be forced to embrace such liberal values and promote them? What values allow the fighting of illegal wars that kills thousands to spread democracy by the gun, or of staunchly supporting nations that deprive a people of a land their rights and oppresses them? Are these British values?

    What we believe to be wrong and unjust, we will exercise our right to speak out against. You cannot speak of a belief in the freedom of speech and religion while in the same breath denying the Muslims the right to proclaim and preach their belief. You thus make ‘freedom of speech’ an empty slogan. You either accept that people – British Muslims included – have a right to believe in the values that their religion teaches, or that the state regulates our beliefs and our values as in a ‘thought police’ that incriminates and sanctions citizens for what they may believe even if they break no law. This, in essence, is what you propose. If so, then how different is that from communist dictatorships that repress those voices that oppose the state’s ‘values’? You are travelling down a road that will end with sanctions being placed on Muslims for simply believing in Islam and the Quran.

    The Islamic faith does not teach extremism. But the Prime Minister, MPs and non-representative think-tanks with their own prejudices will not dictate to Muslims what constitutes a correct Islamic understanding and what does not. You would be ill-advised to be directed by any biased coterie of individuals with neo-conservative leanings or those who seek to undermine Muslims to forward the cause of other interest groups. The government has already, on the basis of such misinformation, branded mainstream Muslim individuals, events and organisations as extremist, reinforcing the perception that your government is unable to make an impartial judgement about its Muslim citizens. This reality makes your speech a cause for even greater concern among British Muslims.

    In your speech you stated regarding terrorism that the “threat comes in Europe overwhelmingly from young men who follow a completely perverse, warped interpretation of Islam”.  This is not true. The 2008 TE-SAT report of European terrorism confirmed that in 2007, only 4 out of 583 (0.007%) attacks were ‘Islamist’ in nature. In 2006 it was 1 in 498. The main threat comes from separatists and left-wing groups. Why do you seek to exaggerate the threat from Islamists when the facts state otherwise? It is irresponsible for you to further sour the relationship between a minority and the community at large, where there is already evidence of much anti-Muslim feeling. Statistics demonstrate that by sheer numbers alone there are more non-Muslims who feel hostility to Muslims (more than 20% in UK) or than vice versa. While singling out Muslims in the attack on multiculturalism, you made no mention of some Christians, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs who have been united for a common cause of hatred against Muslims in various guises under the banner of the EDL who were marching on the same day that you spoke.  Rather than countering this unhealthy Islamophobia that is sweeping across Europe, you contributed to it. That you were on German soil should have reminded you of the consequences of contributing to hatred against minorities.

    The most insulting and disdainful of your remarks directed to the Muslims was the threats of withholding funding from whom you think are extreme. Do you think that the strength of our conviction in our values is measured against paltry handouts or opportunities for photoshoots with MPs? Muslims do not need such money nor do they have any need to share platform with such ministers, and certainly not if these are meant to bribe them away from their principles. Reliance and trust upon Allah are the bedrock of our faith.  What is the entitlement of any citizen – regardless of religion –should be granted to them. If the government decides to wrongfully withhold this from a Muslim individual or group because of  ill-informed reservations about their beliefs, then it is the government that should be held accountable.

    It is time for Britain comes to terms with the reality of Muslims as part of Britain with the differences that we have between us. If this is what you want to confront, and this is how you want to browbeat Muslims with ‘muscular liberalism’ then do, for we will, with God’s help, will be even harder-nosed in standing up for our faith, for we are responsible for this before God. We will always turn to Him and His guidance and we will, Insha’Allah (God willing) have the mettle to remain patiently steadfast on our faith and speak what we believe to be right:

    6:135 Say: “O my people! Do whatever ye can: I will do (my part): soon will ye know who it is whose end will be (best) in the Hereafter: certain it is that the oppressors will not prosper.”

    Your speech has lead to much upset in the Muslim community. While you may win over many right-wing and possibly racist voters, you will lose Muslim voters who will not forget your remarks in four years time. But it is not votes, but a sense of justice and perspective that should guide you. We hope you reconsider your statements and reassess the direction this government is taking with regards the rights of Muslim citizens of Britain, and not join Europe’s growing far-right.

    Haitham Al-Haddad


    http://muslimmatters.org/2011/02/19/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-by-haitham-al-haddad/

    ++++++

    And here is the good Sheikh's resume from wiki

    Quote
    Shaykh Haitham al-Haddad is a London-based Islamic scholar and Muslim community leader. Al-Haddad sits on the boards of advisors for Islamic organisations in the United Kingdom, including the Islamic Sharia Council, and is the chair and operations advisor for the Muslim Research and Development Foundation. He is also a trustee for the Muslim Research and Development Foundation in the United Kingdom.

    Al-Haddad studied Islamic sciences under various scholars.[citation needed] He holds a Bachelor of Science Honours (B.Sc.) in law and Islamic law from Omdurman University in Khartoum, Sudan, and a B.Sc. in computer science from King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals in Saudi Arabia. He is studying for his Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Islamic law at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. Al-Haddad is qualified to deliver verdicts as a judge under Islamic law, with a specialism in Islamic jurisprudence and its principles, and Islamic finance.

    Al-Haddad participated in authoring a text book on Islamic finance and was published in 20010.The editor of the book was Tarek el-Diwani who is an expert in Islamic finance. Al-Haddad's views on Islamic Finance are quite strict. He issued his famous fatwa regarding the prohibition of using HSBC Amana finance mortgage.


    Here is our Sheikh on 'The Role of Muslim Women in the West" and "The Obligation of the Niqab"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwybk7B94B8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPQHVYliyfs


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #1 - March 06, 2011, 01:21 AM

    Quote
    While singling out Muslims in the attack on multiculturalism, you made no mention of some Christians, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs who have been united for a common cause of hatred against Muslims in various guises under the banner of the EDL who were marching on the same day that you spoke.  Rather than countering this unhealthy Islamophobia that is sweeping across Europe, you contributed to it. That you were on German soil should have reminded you of the consequences of contributing to hatred against minorities.


    I am the only one in the Western Hemisphere that read that Cameron specifically pointed out far right extremist groups like the EDL in his speech? 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #2 - March 06, 2011, 01:24 AM

    Wow this guy is so beyond the point of no return ...
  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #3 - March 06, 2011, 01:29 AM

    I am the only one in the Western Hemisphere that read that Cameron specifically pointed out far right extremist groups like the EDL in his speech? 


    Just reread Camerons speech and he didn't mentioned the EDL specifically but he made specific references to the evils of far right extremism. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #4 - March 06, 2011, 01:52 AM

    Quote
    The most insulting and disdainful of your remarks directed to the Muslims was the threats of withholding funding from whom you think are extreme.


    This pisses me off.  People want it both ways.  The letter says first, we will stick with our ethics no matter what, second we don't need the funding, and third its insulting that the goverment would take money away any of our groups that its thinks it is extremist.  

    I mean WTF? If the government was giving money to the EDL or the Lets Kick All Muslims Out of Britian Action Group or the Muslims Are Filthy Scum Charity Organization people would raising hell, especially if they say they are going to keep doing it irregardless of funding or not. But the arrogant condescension in this letter is way over the top. it is saying  we don't need your money, we will keep doing what we want, but if you don't give it to us we will find it insulting? GTFO.  First, the people's money shouldn't be going to religious groups in the first place.  It should be going to actually people who want to do actual things and not tack on their imaginary sky friends along with it.  It is real people's money, not some imaginary free money pot that magically spits money out that people are entitled to.  It is MY ( the British citizen's) money and other people are not entitled to it, just because they think they are.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #5 - March 06, 2011, 11:46 AM

    Wow this guy is so beyond the point of no return ...


    He is exemplary to many. These are the ideologues who are pumping this out consistently. They are funded from somewhere, they preach, they lecture, they pump this into the blood supply of the Muslim community, creating the atmospherics in which his attitudes do flourish.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #6 - March 06, 2011, 06:28 PM

    He is exemplary to many. These are the ideologues who are pumping this out consistently. They are funded from somewhere, they preach, they lecture, they pump this into the blood supply of the Muslim community, creating the atmospherics in which his attitudes do flourish.



    I don't doubt it for a second.
    Whether the impacts are seen through Madrassa books instructing children to throw homos off cliffs, beating up an RS teacher for teaching other Gods or beating up atheists who should be fasting during Ramadan, it's plain to see this type of attitude is not isolated.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #7 - September 22, 2014, 11:55 AM

    Haven't come across this before. It's mostly bollocks, what he says. Cameron goes out of his way whenever extremists commit horrors to say this isn't islam, this isn't what most muslims are like. In fact he angers a number of non muslims by stating over and over this has nothing to do with islam instead of declaring a new holy war which results in the streets of England running red with blood. The idea of muslims having liberalism forced on them is nonsense. This government has never banned the building of a mosque, never attempted to stop muslims praying, never tried to ban or edit the quran, and never tried to take away the right of the author of this letter to speak. Sharia courts are allowed, islamic schools are allowed and government funded, and the bit about forcing muslims to accept things they don't want to is laughable.

    Being forced to embrace values that go against their beliefs is probably a line to make the fans cheer but it's not what's happening. Cameron has never said you have to embrace such things, simply that if someone is living their life inside the law, without harming you or others, you have no right to impose your will on them. It's like homosexuality vs the burka. You don't have to embrace homosexuality, you don't have to agree with it or say it's fine, but you can't discriminate or harm someone just for being homosexual, just as this government has said it won't follow France in banning the burka, a move the majority of Britain would support. This is not forcing values on someone.

    Likewise the government has the right to choose what it wants to fund, just as I have the right to choose what organisation or charity, if any, I would like to fund. There are groups I would not fund, some of them hard-core islamic groups. I don't forbid them from doing what they do, I just choose not to give my support to them. No one says the government is bribing the EDL or Stormfront by not funding them. This is ludicrous.

    Quote
    Interpretations of British values change as governments do, and what may be in keeping with liberal values may be completely unacceptable to our belief, whether it be mocking God and His Prophets, the alcohol culture with all its ills, and any cohabiting out of wedlock between man and woman, this being the only relationship Islam recognises. Are we still to be forced to embrace such liberal values and promote them?


    No you are not, not for one second, just as you are not now. Someone disagreeing with you when you say it's wrong or questioning you when you condemn it is forcing you to embrace it as much as street dawah workers are giving me no choice but to convert to islam against my will. It's ridiculous. The fact that you can be questioned doesn't mean for one second you can't stand your ground.

    The entire thing is nonsense, simply a crowd pleaser to the "I'm such a victim, the world's against me" types and nothing more. I do hope that as he goes about his life visiting the mosque, the working in his role in the sharia council, voicing his option, sending letters to the bloke who runs the country, making speeches, condemning modern British values and all the rest completely unmolested, he doesn't break out in tears at Britain forcing it's will on him when he sees the unmarried couple in love walking down the street together not bothering him or forcing him to do the same.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #8 - September 22, 2014, 12:30 PM

    I would recommend people have a look at this and then reflect on the fact that no one is locking him up or stopping him from vomiting this poison and corrupting people's minds.

    http://tifrib.com/haitham-al-haddad/

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #9 - September 22, 2014, 12:34 PM

    Just a thought, does anyone else consider him and his ilk Nazis? In my opinion he basically has the mentality of a white power Nazi, only motivated by religion instead of race. Superior race simply becomes superior religion. With him and those who share his view, it works out as exactly the same.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #10 - September 22, 2014, 03:58 PM

    I do indeed Quod!

    Haven't come across this before. It's mostly bollocks, what he says. Cameron goes out of his way whenever extremists commit horrors to say this isn't islam, this isn't what most muslims are like. In fact he angers a number of non muslims by stating over and over this has nothing to do with islam instead of declaring a new holy war which results in the streets of England running red with blood. The idea of muslims having liberalism forced on them is nonsense. This government has never banned the building of a mosque, never attempted to stop muslims praying, never tried to ban or edit the quran, and never tried to take away the right of the author of this letter to speak. Sharia courts are allowed, islamic schools are allowed and government funded, and the bit about forcing muslims to accept things they don't want to is laughable.

    Being forced to embrace values that go against their beliefs is probably a line to make the fans cheer but it's not what's happening. Cameron has never said you have to embrace such things, simply that if someone is living their life inside the law, without harming you or others, you have no right to impose your will on them. It's like homosexuality vs the burka. You don't have to embrace homosexuality, you don't have to agree with it or say it's fine, but you can't discriminate or harm someone just for being homosexual, just as this government has said it won't follow France in banning the burka, a move the majority of Britain would support. This is not forcing values on someone.

    Likewise the government has the right to choose what it wants to fund, just as I have the right to choose what organisation or charity, if any, I would like fund. There are groups I would not fund, some of them hard-core islamic groups. I don't forbid them from doing what they do, I just choose not to give my support to them. No one says the government is bribing the EDL or Stormfront by not funding them. This is ludicrous.

    No you are not, not for one second, just as you are not now. Someone disagreeing with you when you say it's wrong or questioning you when you condemn it is forcing you to embrace it as much as street dawah workers are giving me no choice but to convert to islam against my will. It's ridiculous. The fact that you can be questioned doesn't mean for one second you can't stand your ground.

    The entire thing is nonsense, simply a crowd pleaser to the "I'm such a victim, the world's against me" types and nothing more. I do hope that as he goes about his life visiting the mosque, the working in his role in the sharia council, voicing his option, sending letters to the bloke who runs the country, making speeches, condemning modern British values and all the rest completely unmolested, he doesn't break out in tears at Britain forcing it's will on him when he sees the unmarried couple in love walking down the street together not bothering him or forcing him to do the same.


    ^^^ VERY EXCELLENT PIECE OF WRITING HERE!

    Jeez, these people need to go into rehab or something.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #11 - September 22, 2014, 10:31 PM

    This is the crux of the matter.  As long as people like this continue to tell the British people that their laws, customs and traditions are to be ignored (or worse) in favour of Islamic laws and customs, the vast majority of them will distrust the whole community.

    You will correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the Muslim community expect some kind of special recognition of their belief system.  If that is the case, they are going to be mightily disappointed.  The average Brit (not EDL or BNP) couldn't give a damn about Islam, and certainly doesn't want to learn about it from some rabid and brainwashed zealot.

    I am naturally disposed to learning about other cultures, and believe that we all have something of value to contribute to the conversation.  That said, this kind of rhetoric only serves to put my back up, and I will never listen to bigots such as this man.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.

  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #12 - September 23, 2014, 06:44 AM

    He's a twat and obviously I dismiss him, however I wouldn't go so far as to deny any person or group recognition of their belief system. When my town got it's first mosque, the imam made a point of saying it's important people realise they are here, which I don't have a problem with. As a non believer living in a historically christian country I'm also of the opinion that recognising the non religious and their/our views to be important. We exist and we have the right to be heard and our views taken into account. In fact, RE classes in schools now talk about atheism and humanism precisely because the government recognises that there is a very real number of people in the UK to hold this view.

    Ignoring laws is an interesting thing to mull over. Assisted suicide is (currently) illegal in this country, but I can tell you right now that if someone I love was in pain, had no hope of recovery and asked me to help them die, I would.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #13 - September 23, 2014, 09:02 AM

    The point I am making is that Brits don't want to hear about Islam, and constantly shoving it down their throats will alienate people.  It may be important to Muslims, but no-one else cares two hoots about it.

    All the average Brit knows about Islam is what he or she sees on TV or in the newspapers.  I recall a member of the Muslim Council stating, during a TV interview, that his aim was to see the black flag of Islam fluttering over Downing Street.  The reaction to this amongst my group of friends was great anger and loathing.

    Unless Islam can put a muzzle on the radicals who spout this nonsense, the white majority will assume a hostile stance against the Muslim community in general.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #14 - September 23, 2014, 09:27 AM

    Saying shit like "the flag of islam will fly over Downing Street" will obviously piss people off. It's probably the point of saying it publically.

    I would actually encourage more people to learn about islam. It is growing and it is often in the news, so some basic understandings can be valuable. Plus in the more urban areas you get these little "teams" trying to convince people of this and that. Being able to see through the lies and propaganda is useful. I do however agree with you that most people simply don't care one way or the other.

    I have to disagree with you about putting a muzzle on radicals. I believe in freedom of speech. This doesn't mean I have to listen to what someone says or that private organisations and groups can't dictate that certain things are not appropriate. For instance if I worked in a rape crisis centre and made rape jokes, I would probably be fired, but in my own time with a few mates I can make these jokes in public. I actually wouldn't make rape jokes anyway, but you get what I'm saying.

    If a group who's main goal is interfaith dialog, building bridges and understanding between different groups has a speaker saying things like "the black flag of islam fluttering over Downing Street" and other delights, I can see that not going down very well as it's counter to the aims of that group, but I still support the right for people to say whatever they want. It's a point of principle. I either champion free speech or I don't. The right to free speech that allows them to make fools of themselves is the same right that allows me to point at them and laugh.

    They don't deserve anger, they deserve scorn and mockery.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #15 - September 23, 2014, 09:34 PM

    Quod,

    I share your views on censorship, having never been a big fan of it.

    My worry is more to do with striking matches close to a powder keg.  It is my contention that allowing this man to spread his vile and misleading rhetoric could cause very real friction and open hostility toward the Muslim community.

    Not everyone in this country has the ability (or desire) to understand why elements within the Muslim community appear to hate practically everyone, and may see no good reason to seek common cause.

    I will not repeat the things I have heard from white people I have spoken with, but even the most tolerant of them have had enough of Muslim leaders/community spokesmen.  The less tolerant believe in an altogether more robust approach to ranting bigots and jihadi warriors.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #16 - September 23, 2014, 11:31 PM

    They hate practically everyone because they are bigots and I treat them as such. They don't care about causing friction, they at times go out of their way to. But that doesn't change my views at all. People can say whatever they want, but if they lay a hand on you they've gone too far, be it hate preachers or those you mentioned that believe in a "more robust approach".

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #17 - September 24, 2014, 11:14 AM

    what a silly letter…

    who says alcohol and premarital sex are mandatory aspects of liberal values and is demanding muslims participate?
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #18 - September 24, 2014, 01:02 PM

    Never heard of this silly Shake Hate Ham al-Haddock. Couldn't give a fuck.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #19 - September 24, 2014, 05:08 PM

    Haven't come across this before. It's mostly bollocks, what he says. Cameron goes out of his way whenever extremists commit horrors to say this isn't islam, this isn't what most muslims are like. In fact he angers a number of non muslims by stating over and over this has nothing to do with islam instead of declaring a new holy war which results in the streets of England running red with blood. The idea of muslims having liberalism forced on them is nonsense. This government has never banned the building of a mosque, never attempted to stop muslims praying, never tried to ban or edit the quran, and never tried to take away the right of the author of this letter to speak. Sharia courts are allowed, islamic schools are allowed and government funded, and the bit about forcing muslims to accept things they don't want to is laughable.

    Being forced to embrace values that go against their beliefs is probably a line to make the fans cheer but it's not what's happening. Cameron has never said you have to embrace such things, simply that if someone is living their life inside the law, without harming you or others, you have no right to impose your will on them. It's like homosexuality vs the burka. You don't have to embrace homosexuality, you don't have to agree with it or say it's fine, but you can't discriminate or harm someone just for being homosexual, just as this government has said it won't follow France in banning the burka, a move the majority of Britain would support. This is not forcing values on someone.

    Likewise the government has the right to choose what it wants to fund, just as I have the right to choose what organisation or charity, if any, I would like to fund. There are groups I would not fund, some of them hard-core islamic groups. I don't forbid them from doing what they do, I just choose not to give my support to them. No one says the government is bribing the EDL or Stormfront by not funding them. This is ludicrous.

    No you are not, not for one second, just as you are not now. Someone disagreeing with you when you say it's wrong or questioning you when you condemn it is forcing you to embrace it as much as street dawah workers are giving me no choice but to convert to islam against my will. It's ridiculous. The fact that you can be questioned doesn't mean for one second you can't stand your ground.

    The entire thing is nonsense, simply a crowd pleaser to the "I'm such a victim, the world's against me" types and nothing more. I do hope that as he goes about his life visiting the mosque, the working in his role in the sharia council, voicing his option, sending letters to the bloke who runs the country, making speeches, condemning modern British values and all the rest completely unmolested, he doesn't break out in tears at Britain forcing it's will on him when he sees the unmarried couple in love walking down the street together not bothering him or forcing him to do the same.

    This man came to The Netherlands last year, for a tv-debate, where he ordered that the female presenter left the table when he came on and for her to keep her mouth shut. The whole bloody thing angered me, especially that this woman did as he asked. However, she did not keep quiet. Anyway, 'Haatham' is a hypocrite and his face speaks his thoughts (hate).
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #20 - September 24, 2014, 05:10 PM

    Got any links?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #21 - September 24, 2014, 05:24 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE8ZZRHXRwA

    The woman walks away from the table at around 7:50 and then Haatham sits at the table.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #22 - September 24, 2014, 05:32 PM

    Here's another debate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR7U42wf7zY

    It is later on in the same day and he explains that he doesn't want women at the table (the panel chairman says 'on the table', LOL) because he disagrees with that (and everybody should comply). Well well.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #23 - September 24, 2014, 07:11 PM

    Saying shit like "the flag of islam will fly over Downing Street" will obviously piss people off. It's probably the point of saying it publically.

    I would actually encourage more people to learn about islam. It is growing and it is often in the news, so some basic understandings can be valuable. Plus in the more urban areas you get these little "teams" trying to convince people of this and that. Being able to see through the lies and propaganda is useful. I do however agree with you that most people simply don't care one way or the other.

    I have to disagree with you about putting a muzzle on radicals. I believe in freedom of speech. This doesn't mean I have to listen to what someone says or that private organisations and groups can't dictate that certain things are not appropriate. For instance if I worked in a rape crisis centre and made rape jokes, I would probably be fired, but in my own time with a few mates I can make these jokes in public. I actually wouldn't make rape jokes anyway, but you get what I'm saying.

    If a group who's main goal is interfaith dialog, building bridges and understanding between different groups has a speaker saying things like "the black flag of islam fluttering over Downing Street" and other delights, I can see that not going down very well as it's counter to the aims of that group, but I still support the right for people to say whatever they want. It's a point of principle. I either champion free speech or I don't. The right to free speech that allows them to make fools of themselves is the same right that allows me to point at them and laugh.

    They don't deserve anger, they deserve scorn and mockery.



    Democracy is weak, because it relies on it's voters to vote for democracy if however the people voted for some thing else that's not democracy then that view prevails and we lose democracy.

    So, it's important that the hate preachers are in fact silenced, by whatever means, they have to be stopped or there will be civil unrest, I'm sure of it.

    Arthur.
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #24 - September 24, 2014, 07:13 PM

    So the Sheik's letter started off badly, and it went downhill from there. Roll Eyes

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #25 - September 25, 2014, 07:49 AM


    Democracy is weak, because it relies on it's voters to vote for democracy if however the people voted for some thing else that's not democracy then that view prevails and we lose democracy.

    So, it's important that the hate preachers are in fact silenced, by whatever means, they have to be stopped or there will be civil unrest, I'm sure of it.

    Arthur.


    This makes my skin crawl. You either champion democracy and free speech or you don't. Either everyone has the right to think and to speak as they see fit, or they don't. Your comments about democracy are pathetic.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #26 - September 25, 2014, 07:55 AM

    Arthur simply has no idea of the ramifications of what he is saying.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #27 - September 25, 2014, 08:39 AM

    Evidently.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #28 - September 25, 2014, 08:13 PM

    "Our  role models are the Prophets of God, among them Noah, Abraham (attempted murder of his son), Moses (went around massacring local tribes ), Jesus (flawed character, said some nice stuff and spoiled it all by becoming the litmus test for hell), and Muhammed (see Moses)"

    Nice company you keep Mr Sheik.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • An Open Letter to David Cameron by Sheikh Haitham Al-Haddad
     Reply #29 - September 25, 2014, 08:35 PM

    Jesus is the best of the bunch then isn't he?
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