Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #30 - February 17, 2011, 04:01 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 03:54 PM
but still I have done this same stunt with my nephews and I love them and yes when they are dizzy we laugh, and that is in no way cruelty.

ah.. Ha! ., that is different game with kids., I also did that to little kids.,

You see kids will ask you to stop it. but cat can not do that. With Cats and even rats., what happens is its brain and liquid around it moves out of there equilibrium., Literally those fellows could have killed/brain damaged that cat. There was a Chinese young lady who apparently used to do that in the lab to the rats to save bit of Anesthesia., I exploded .. she didn't understand why I did that..

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #31 - February 17, 2011, 04:01 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 03:54 PM
Well that was a kind of a joke

Considering your first joke about animal cruelty didn't work I think it would have been best to avoid a 2nd, don't you think?

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 03:54 PM
but still I have done this same stunt with my nephews and I love them and yes when they are dizzy we laugh, and that is in no way cruelty.

That's because you say to them "Shall we spin you around?" and they reply "Yes." As you do it you laugh. When it is over they know of they liked it or not, so the next time you ask them "Shall we spin you around" they have the option of saying "No."

The cat neither has an understanding of what is happening or the option of saying "No".

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 03:54 PM
I would never do this to a cat or animal but still, I will never know what they felt who made this video and again you have to define cruelty.

Causing pain or emotional suffering without just cause, especially if done for amusement.

Now keep in mind the cat has no idea what is happening. Can you imagine if I came up to you in the street, grabbed you, poked you with something, and as a consequence the whole world started spinning around furiously causing you to drop immediately to the floor, and no matter how much you tried to get up and escape as I stood there laughing you couldn't even stop yourself from repeatedly rolling over let along get to your feet.

Does that help to put it into perspective?

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #32 - February 17, 2011, 04:07 PM

Correction Rationalizer: I think the cat DOES know what's happening and doesn't like it. Watch the beginning of the video-- the cat is trying to get away and they grab it by the tail. It seems likely they've done this to the cat before, and that's why the cat is avoiding them.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #33 - February 17, 2011, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on February 17, 2011, 04:07 PM
Correction Rationalizer: I think the cat DOES know what's happening and doesn't like it. Watch the beginning of the video-- the cat is trying to get away and they grab it by the tail. It seems likely they've done this to the cat before, and that's why the cat is avoiding them.

I was referring to the first time it was done. The cat was clearly trying to escape from a previous abuse at the start of the video, yes. Although the cat still won't understand that it is just dizzy and that dizziness subsides after a few seconds + there is nothing to be worried about.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #34 - February 17, 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 04:01 PM
Considering your first joke about animal cruelty didn't work I think it would have been best to avoid a 2nd, don't you think?

No I would not and should not avoid anything, because you or every one else said, or thought.

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 04:01 PM
That's because you say to them "Shall we spin you around?" and they reply "Yes." As you do it you laugh. When it is over they know of they liked it or not, so the next time you ask them "Shall we spin you around" they have the option of saying "No."

Agreed

Quote
The cat neither has an understanding of what is happening or the option of saying "No".

can't comment on that

Quote
Causing pain or emotional suffering without just cause, especially if done for amusement.

Now keep in mind the cat has no idea what is happening. Can you imagine if I came up to you in the street, grabbed you, poked you with something, and as a consequence the whole world started spinning around furiously causing you to drop immediately to the floor, and no matter how much you tried to get up and escape as I stood there laughing you couldn't even stop yourself from repeatedly rolling over let along get to your feet.

Does that help to put it into perspective?

not entirely firs as we both agree it is a cause but how is amusement not just, chicken's do not know what is happening to them when they are being slaughtered although that will be a just cause for you

again I feel like I am playing the devils advocate and don' wish to represent those devils and there are other issues so in nut shell

agreed to you on all counts

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #35 - February 17, 2011, 04:29 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:16 PM
No I would not and should not avoid anything, because you or every one else said, or thought.

Well, if you do something and people think you are a prick you should avoid doing it again unless you don't mind people thinking you are a prick.

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:16 PM
can't comment on that

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:16 PM
not entirely firs as we both agree it is a cause but how is amusement not just, chicken's do not know what is happening to them when they are being slaughtered although that will be a just cause for you

You kill chickens to eat them. If you additionally find it funny that's up to you, but if you chop chicken's heads off just for amusement then I would find that quite infuriating.

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:16 PM
again I feel like I am playing the devils advocate

No, there's a big difference between what you are doing and playing Devil's advocate.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #36 - February 17, 2011, 04:32 PM

hairyimp: you really shouldn't need any of this explained to you.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #37 - February 17, 2011, 04:43 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 04:29 PM
Well, if you do something and people think you are a prick you should avoid doing it again unless you don't mind people thinking you are a prick.

I actually do not give a damn what people think of me, the only thing that does and should make me feel comfortable sleep at night is what I think about me.

I will try to summarize what I think of the video, guys are having fun they are using cat as a tool for fun, there is no life threatening danger to the cat in the video that I know off. If there is and they or I know about it then it is wrong. If there is and they or I do not know about it then it is questionable. Now it comes to feelings please do not talk to me about feelings and for that matter feelings of a cat.

Should the cat be left alone, YES

having said that i have killed mice in my own house out of unbelievable rage feeling no guilt or remorse what so ever, some times as big as tiny cats, what you would say about that.

but still I will reconsider my animal cruelty prospective but I feel you lot are over reacting.

Quote from: Q-Man on February 17, 2011, 04:32 PM
hairyimp: you really shouldn't need any of this explained to you.

thanks for the vote of confidence

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #38 - February 17, 2011, 04:53 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
having said that i have killed mice in my own house out of unbelievable rage feeling no guilt or remorse what so ever, some times as big as tiny cats, what you would say about that.

Those are peSts not pets. Notice the extra "s"

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #39 - February 17, 2011, 04:56 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
I will try to summarize what I think of the video, guys are having fun they are using cat as a tool for fun, there is no life threatening danger to the cat in the video that I know off.

So if I point a gun at your head, kidnap you, take you to an abandoned field, tell you I am going to kill you, and laugh as you urinate your trousers that is okay because the gun isn't loaded? Is it is cruel because I am gaining pleasure from your mental torment?

Oh hang on, I suppose it is only a cat, right?

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #40 - February 17, 2011, 04:59 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on February 17, 2011, 04:53 PM
Those are peSts not pets. Notice the extra "s"

I thought we were talking about animal cruelty now it have turned in to pet cruelty, notice a change in your morality ok just for the sake of argument how would u feel if I make a video out of that rat and have a little fun while killing it

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #41 - February 17, 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 04:56 PM
So if I point a gun at your head, kidnap you, take you to an abandoned field, tell you I am going to kill you, and laugh as you urinate your trousers that is okay because the gun isn't loaded? Is it is cruel because I am gaining pleasure from your mental torment?

Oh hang on, I suppose it is only a cat, right?

We almost always laugh or find pleasure at some one else's expense it is the degree that you are talking about.

btw you don' know me and trust me u won't be able to make me urinate out of fear

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #42 - February 17, 2011, 05:02 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 04:59 PM
I thought we were talking about animal cruelty now it have turned in to pet cruelty, notice a change in your morality ok just for the sake of argument how would u feel if I make a video out of that rat and have a little fun while killing it

Who said anything abut torture? You said you killed mice in your own home. Killing household pests is not animal cruelty-- it's common fuckin sense.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #43 - February 17, 2011, 05:06 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on February 17, 2011, 05:01 PM
btw you don' know me and trust me u won't be able to make me urinate out of fear

I see. You are harder than a cat. Point taken.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #44 - February 17, 2011, 05:08 PM

So., let us get back to Quran ., And again, what are the Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows? no one else??

Quote
003.007 He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

so the question is which verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and which verses are allegorical?? clearly nonsense like this
Quote
Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]

DOOM.. DUM DUM DAMN.. KHABOOM(yeezevee Quran verse XXX.XXX)

are neither allegorical nor decisive., they are just plain nonsense..

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #45 - February 17, 2011, 05:10 PM

Yes, it's a bit like the statement "The correct verses are literal, the apparently incorrect ones are allegorical" - the verses which are clear have been made clear, and the ones which aren't have not.

Simples.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #46 - February 17, 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 17, 2011, 05:08 PM
So., let us get back to Quran ., And again,

thanx yeezee God, these guys are so self important "its a joke" and why can't you put the cat back up again i was so used to seeing it, your cat and my mouse had a platonic relationship going on

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #47 - February 17, 2011, 05:12 PM

*rolls eyes*

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #48 - February 17, 2011, 05:18 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yes, it's a bit like the statement "The correct verses are literal, the apparently incorrect ones are allegorical" - the verses which are clear have been made clear, and the ones which aren't have not.

Simples.

How did you come to that conclusion and how do one define "the literal/correct verses and incorrect/allegorical" verses?? I wonder whether any Islamic scholar came up with such division of Quran. The only guy I know with some similar division is Javed Ghamdi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKKHN0q-jc

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #49 - February 17, 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 17, 2011, 05:18 PM
How did you come to that conclusion and how do one define "the literal/correct verses and incorrect/allegorical" verses?

Simple, it's the only method which allows one to continue to believe something after it has been conclusively disproven.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #50 - February 17, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 17, 2011, 05:18 PM
Javed Ghamdi

words cloud: quran, imam, qabul, azab, hadeeth, riwayat, majlis, islam, qanoon, musulmaan, quran-e-majeed, shariat, siyasat, ummat, lakin, ijma, namaz,masala, ahl-e-sunnah, jumhoor, isabat, mawjood, irtidad, jasarat,

Urdu is basically a long string of those words mixed together, throwing in some "ka" and "ko" and ending ur sentence with hai(n).

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #51 - February 18, 2011, 01:01 AM

To the rationalizer and Q man, I just saw that video again and found it really disturbing with a certain amount of definite cruelty. I thought I needed to say this.

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #52 - February 18, 2011, 01:04 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 17, 2011, 05:18 PM
The only guy I know with some similar division is Javed Ghamdi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKKHN0q-jc

This is of personal interest to me, I have seen Ghamdi's work and have seen his argument over death penalty for blasphemy. Do you think his Rosy Islam have any place in the future of ummah and specially Pakistan

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #53 - February 20, 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2011, 10:23 AM
PS: Don't the verses which say it has been made clear mean "It is revealed using clear Arabic words" rather than that the meaning is clear?

I believe the Koran mentioned twice that it is revealed in Arabic:

Sura 16:
103 And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.

Sura 26:
192 And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds,
193 Which the True Spirit hath brought down
194 Upon thy heart, that thou mayst be (one) of the warners,
195 In plain Arabic speech.

UPDATE

Hmmm, my memory seems to be gone; just checked http://corpus.quran.com/ and found all these references in addition to above:

ʿarabiyyan (عَرَبِيًّا) adjective (
accusative masculine singular indefinite adjective (صفة منصوبة)
(12:2:4) ... (as) a Quran in Arabic ...
(13:37:4) ... (in) Arabic. ...
(20:113:4) ... (in) Arabic ...
(39:28:2) ... (in) Arabic ...
(41:3:5) ... (in) Arabic ...
(42:7:5) ... (in) Arabic, ...
(43:3:4) ... (in) Arabic ...
(46:12:11) ... Arabic ...

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #54 - February 20, 2011, 07:29 PM

Quote
Urdu is basically a long string of those words mixed together, throwing in some "ka" and "ko" and ending ur sentence with hai(n).

What does 'hai' mean anyway? I always here it when I listen to someone speaking Urdu? Although, I suppose it would be the same with a Hindi speaker...
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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #55 - February 20, 2011, 07:59 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_%28Hindi-Urdu%29_word_etymology

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #56 - February 20, 2011, 10:38 PM

I seem to remember the story behind "clear Arabic speech" was that people accused Mo of being taught by a non-Arab (was it a Coptic?) and his reply was something like "What? Taught by a non-Arab when the words are *clearly Arabic*?"

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #57 - February 20, 2011, 10:58 PM

^: Even when I was a Muslim, I thought that explanation was pathetic.. Now I have repudiated and dismissed this faith I can freely and without any fear express my opinion about that "argument"

Allah seems to be unaware of the concept of translation..

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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #58 - February 20, 2011, 11:00 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 20, 2011, 10:38 PM
I seem to remember the story behind "clear Arabic speech" was that people accused Mo of being taught by a non-Arab (was it a Coptic?) and his reply was something like "What? Taught by a non-Arab when the words are *clearly Arabic*?"

See Q. 16:103

And verily We know that they say, ‘It is only a human that is teaching him, the Qur’ān’ — this was a Christian blacksmith whom the Prophet (s) used to frequent. God, exalted be He, says: The tongue, the language, of him to whom they refer, to whom they incline, [with the accusation] that he is [the one] teaching him, is foreign’; while this, Qur’ān, is [in] a clear Arabic tongue, one of lucidity and clarity: so how can a foreigner be teaching him?
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Re: Verses Whose Meaning Only Allah Knows?
Reply #59 - February 26, 2011, 01:15 AM

I think rational put me on his ignore list. Can't blame the dude.

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on February 20, 2011, 07:22 PM

Sura 16:
103 And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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