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Theme Changer

 Topic: St. John of Damascus

 (Read 11131 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • St. John of Damascus
     OP - February 07, 2011, 03:26 PM

    St. John of Damascus_ A Critique of Islam



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Damascus
    Quote
    Saint John of Damascus (Arabic: يوحنا الدمشقي Yuḥannā Al Demashqi; Greek: Ιωάννης Δαμασκήνος Iôannês Damaskênos; Latin: Iohannes Damascenus; also known as John Damascene,  was born into a prominent Arab Christian family known as Mansour (Arabic: Mansǔr, "victorious one") in Damascus in the 7th century AD.  HHe was named Mansur ibn Sarjun Al-Taghlibi (Arabic: منصور بن سرجون التغلبي‎) after his grandfather Mansur, who had been responsible for the taxes of the region under the Emperor Heraclius.  When the region came under Arab Muslim rule in the late 7th century AD, the court at Damascus remained full of Christian civil servants, John's grandfather among them.  John's father, Sarjun (Sergius) or Ibn Mansur, went on to serve the Umayyad caliphs, supervising taxes for the entire Middle East.[6] After his father's death, John also served as a high official to the caliphate court before leaving to become a monk and adopting the monastic name John at Mar Saba, where he was ordained as a priest in 735

    The most commonly used source for information on the life of John of Damascus is a work attributed to one John of Jerusalem, identified therein as the Patriarch of Jerusalem. It is actually an excerpted translation into Greek of an earlier Arabic text. The Arabic original contains a prologue not found in most other translations that was written by an Arabic monk named Michael who relates his decision to write a biography of John of Damascus in 1084, noting that none was available in either Greek or Arabic at the time. The main text that follows in the original Arabic version seems to have been written by another, even earlier author, sometime between the early 9th and late 10th centuries AD


    "Mansur ibn Sarjun Al-Taghlibi  Aka John of Damascus "  may be considered as First authentic critique of islam.  He is certainly  very important witness to early Islam. His critique of Islam, or “the heresy of the Ishmaelites,”  is interesting to read.. here is a bit of it.

    Quote
    There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ 

     These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk,  devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.


    if you would like to read more on this read the book
    John of Damascus on Islam: The 'Heresy of the Ishmaelites (Greek Edition) by Daniel J. Sahas  (Library Binding - Jun 7, 1972) 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #1 - February 07, 2011, 04:27 PM

    I learnt about John of Damascus from a deobandi scholar who's kinda related to me  Roll Eyes as it was an example of tolerance of non-muslims under a caliphate ie a dhimmi and tbh, it is kinda true I mean from what I know he was never harmed or anything and I THINK he even criticised Mo, it shows how stupid and backward muslims have become nowadays compared to the "golden age"
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #2 - February 07, 2011, 04:32 PM

    I learnt about John of Damascus from a deobandi scholar who's kinda related to me  Roll Eyes as it was an example of tolerance of non-muslims under a caliphate ie a dhimmi and tbh, it is kinda true I mean from what I know he was never harmed or anything and I THINK he even criticised Mo, it shows how stupid and backward muslims have become nowadays compared to the "golden age"

    Good point but he was like Saddam's Christian Foreign minister under Calipha regime.,  Moreover  St. John did not consider Islam as  separate religion, but rather a Christian heresy"  and that is how he treated it.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #3 - February 07, 2011, 05:19 PM

    it shows how stupid and backward muslims have become nowadays compared to the "golden age"


    It seems, that until the doors of Ijtihad were closed Muslims societies were far more tolerant than they are today, when poets could write poems like the following by Abu Nuwas :

    'O the joy of sodomy!
    So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
    Turn not away from it--
    therein is wondrous pleasure.
    Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
    twisting on his temple
    and ride as he stands like some gazelle
    standing to her mate.
    A lad whom all can see girt with sword
    and belt not like your whore who has
    to go veiled.
    Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
    very best to mount them, for women are
    the mounts of the devils'

    http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T2UJIC3JD29U4M8V2

    About Abu Nuwas :

    http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-literature/gay-mythology-folktales/arab-gay-folktales/abu-nuwas-gay/abu-
    nuwas-gay-biography.html


    His drinking and debauchery in general got him into trouble with the Khalif a couple of times, but by a and large he and many more who shared his taste were tolerated.

    I guess they were not true Muslims, at least not if we are to believe the headmaster of a Muslim freeschool (financed by Saudi Petrodollars) in Sweden who was recently interviewed on Swedish Television.

     He, Hussein Aldaoudi, was asked what would happen if homosexual pupils turned up at his school. At first he replied that homosexuality was up to the pupil and his parents. Then he is asked if homosexual pupils wil be allowed in his school, to which he answers yes of course, but then he adds, but it does not exists among Muslims.

    Q. Muslims are not homosexual ?
    A. No true Muslim does something like that
    Q. A true Muslim cannot be homosexual ?
    A. No
    Q. Do you mean that ?
    A. Not in my experience


    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #4 - February 07, 2011, 06:09 PM

    Quote
    These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite


    Isn't this referring to one of the three pre-Mo Arab godesses, Allat, Manat and ul Uzza, one of whom was related to or equivalent to the Greek godess Aphrodite?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #5 - February 07, 2011, 06:16 PM

    I learnt about John of Damascus from a deobandi scholar who's kinda related to me  Roll Eyes as it was an example of tolerance of non-muslims under a caliphate ie a dhimmi
     


    Anointing people as 'dhimmis' isn't really tolerance at all. Its classifying them as a kind of human cattle to order society in which men and women live under the sufferance of a religious whip hand.

    If John of Damascus and other Christians were retained to serve and work under a conquering Muslim imperialism it was because that imperium required the bureaucrats to keep doing the work they knew how to do, to keep their dominions running.
     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #6 - February 07, 2011, 06:19 PM

     
    Isn't this referring to one of the three pre-Mo Arab godesses, Allat, Manat and ul Uzza, one of whom was related to or equivalent to the Greek godess Aphrodite?

    you are right billy
    Quote
    The Goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Menat formed a triad in pre-Islamic Arabia. They were widely worshipped: from Nabatean Petra in the North to the legendary Kingdoms of Arabia Felix in the South, including Saba, the Biblical Sheba; as far east as Iran and Palmyra; and the three of them were very popular Goddesses in Mecca at the time of Mohammed. From left they are: Al-Uzza, whose name means "The Mighty One", the Goddess of the Morning Star; Al-Lat, the Mother, whose name means simply "The Goddess", as Al-Lah simply means "The God"; and Manat, Crone-goddess of Fate or Time. Sometimes the three of them are referred to as the daughters of Al-Lah; sometimes Manat and Al-Lat are considered daughters of Al-Uzza.


    Al-Uzza, "the Strong One", was one of the most venerated Arab Deities, and the Goddess of the morning and evening star, Venus. She had a temple at Petra (though which one that was has not been determined), and may well have been the patron Goddess of that city. Isaac of Antioch (a writer of the 5th century CE) calls Her Beltis ("Lady", a title shared by many other Semitic Goddesses), and Kaukabta, "the Star". He also says that women would invoke Al-Uzza from the rooftops, a form of worship appropriate to a Star Goddess.

    St. Epiphanius of the 4th century CE calls Her the mother of Dusares, the local mountain God, calling Her by the title Chaamu or Chalmous, meaning "young girl or virgin". She has connections with the acacia tree, and Her sanctuary at Nakhlah had three acacias in which She was believed to descend. She has much in common with Ishtar and Astarte as Morning and Evening Star Goddesses—they all have aspects of both Love and War Goddess, and big cats were sacred to Them. She is shown here armed as a bellatrix, standing before an acacia tree, with a caracal, or desert lynx. She was associated by the Greeks with their Aphrodite Urania, "Heavenly Aphrodite".


    Al-Lat, whose name is a contraction of al-Illahat, "the Goddess", is mentioned by Herodotus as Alilat, whom he identifies with Aphrodite. She is sometimes also equated with Athene, and is called "the Mother of the Gods", or "Greatest of All". She is a Goddess of Springtime and Fertility, the Earth-Goddess who brings prosperity. She and Al-Uzza were sometimes confused, and it seems that as one gained in popularity in one area the other's popularity diminished. The sun in Arabia was called Shams and considered feminine, and may represent an aspect of Al-Lat. She had a sanctuary in the town of Ta'if, east of Mecca, and was known from Arabia to Iran. Her symbol is the crescent moon (sometimes shown with the sun disk resting in its crescent), and the gold necklace She wears is from a pendant identified to Her. As a Fertility-Goddess She bears a sheaf of wheat; and in Her hand She holds a small lump of frankincense, as Her emblem is found carved on many incense-holders.


    Manat or Manawayat derives Her name from Arabic maniya, "fate, destruction, doom, death", or menata, "part, portion, that which is alloted". She is a very ancient Deity and Her cult may precede both Al-Uzza's and Al-Lat's. Her cult was widespread, though She was particularly worshipped as a black stone at Quidaid, near Mecca. She is connected with the great pilgrimage, as Her sanctuary was the starting point for several tribes. She is known from Nabatean inscriptions, and tombs were placed under Her protection, asking Her to curse violators. She is accordingly a Goddess of Death, and Maniya (Death personified) is mentioned in poetry as actively bringing a person to his or her grave, holding out the cup of death. She is shown as an old woman with a cup, and the symbols at the bottom of Her gown spell Her name in Sabaic (which does not use vowels and is written right to left), M-n-t. The waning moon is shown over Her head as the symbol of the Crone-Goddess of Death.

    and that is from one of the links at   Resources On Pre-islamic Arabia http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6597

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #7 - February 07, 2011, 08:53 PM

    Anointing people as 'dhimmis' isn't really tolerance at all. Its classifying them as a kind of human cattle to order society in which men and women live under the sufferance of a religious whip hand.

    If John of Damascus and other Christians were retained to serve and work under a conquering Muslim imperialism it was because that imperium required the bureaucrats to keep doing the work they knew how to do, to keep their dominions running.
     



    Its not by today's standards no. But we're talking about the 7th century here.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #8 - February 07, 2011, 08:55 PM

    Isn't this referring to one of the three pre-Mo Arab godesses, Allat, Manat and ul Uzza, one of whom was related to or equivalent to the Greek godess Aphrodite?




    Yes
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #9 - February 07, 2011, 09:04 PM

    hey, Marie, since you're here, what do you think about this claim from a Christian site:

    Quote
    Long before Muhammad was born, Arabic Christians were already referring to God as Allah—and millions continue do so today.

    http://www.allaboutreligion.org/is-allah-god.htm

    they disparage Islam of course, but at least they are honest enough to admit that Allah is simply Arabic for capital-G God.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #10 - February 07, 2011, 09:09 PM

    Hey debunker,  Did you know Marie has found a new boyfriend. Tongue  See http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14467.msg398768#msg398768

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #11 - February 07, 2011, 09:14 PM

    we were never in a relationship.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #12 - February 07, 2011, 09:18 PM

    hey, Marie, since you're here, what do you think about this claim from a Christian site:
    http://www.allaboutreligion.org/is-allah-god.htm

    they disparage Islam of course, but at least they are honest enough to admit that Allah is simply Arabic for capital-G God.


    The reason offers no proof to prove their claim. Also it is a site about religion and there is no proof it is a Christian site. It looks more like an interfaith site.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #13 - February 07, 2011, 09:19 PM

    OMG debunker is back after a long hiatus. How are you doing back in your homeland?
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #14 - February 07, 2011, 09:27 PM

    The reason offers no proof to prove their claim.


    i don't understand what you just wrote.

    Quote
    Also it is a site about religion and there is no proof it is a Christian site. It looks more like an interfaith site.

    intefaith sites are nice to all faiths, this one isn't. It is a Christian site.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #15 - February 07, 2011, 09:29 PM

    OMG debunker is back after a long hiatus. How are you doing back in your homeland?


    doing alright, nothing was unexpected. but i do miss basic natural views (here, we don't even have a proper sky), but i'm getting used to it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #16 - February 07, 2011, 09:30 PM

    I made an error. I meant to say the site offers no proof to their claim.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #17 - February 07, 2011, 09:32 PM

    here, we don't even have a proper sky

    Why is that? Pollution?
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #18 - February 07, 2011, 09:50 PM

    I made an error. I meant to say the site offers no proof to their claim.


    oh, so they're just lovely Christians who don't want to insult their fellow Arab Christians by claiming that the word they (Arab Christians) grew up with to mean God, is actually referring to a pagan god, AWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #19 - February 07, 2011, 09:51 PM

    Why is that? Pollution?


    Exactly, and it's SUFFOCATING!

    EDIT: Since I came back i got very sick 5 times already. In fact, i AM sick as we speak, and been sick for 4 days now. I was NEVER sick in Ann Arbor all those years of grad school.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #20 - February 07, 2011, 09:56 PM

    btw Marie, why don't honest Christians call those Bible press houses and tell them to drop the word Allah from the Arabic version of the Good Book?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #21 - February 07, 2011, 10:55 PM

    Exactly, and it's SUFFOCATING!

    EDIT: Since I came back i got very sick 5 times already. In fact, i AM sick as we speak, and been sick for 4 days now. I was NEVER sick in Ann Arbor all those years of grad school.


    Jeez. There go my plans of ever visiting Saudi Arabia.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #22 - February 07, 2011, 11:01 PM

    I made an error. I meant to say the site offers no proof to their claim.


    I don't see what's wrong with accepting that Christians used the word 'Allah.' It's a pre-Islamic name that Arabians would have used for God whether Christians, Jews or Muslims; e.g., the Jewish convert to Islam, Abdullah bin Salam.

    It's even related to 'elohim'; alef, lamed, he; alif, lam, ha. Same Semitic root word.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #23 - February 07, 2011, 11:09 PM

    Here's a rather interesting video on the language of the Bible.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKoNIp_lbKE

    At 10:30 he talks about the Ancient Hebrew name for God.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #24 - February 07, 2011, 11:27 PM

    Is that a picture of DNA double helix on the wall there?
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #25 - February 07, 2011, 11:31 PM

    Quote
    I don't see what's wrong with accepting that Christians used the word 'Allah.' It's a pre-Islamic name that Arabians would have used for God whether Christians, Jews or Muslims; e.g., the Jewish convert to Islam, Abdullah bin Salam.


     Afro

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #26 - February 08, 2011, 02:25 AM

    oh, so they're just lovely Christians who don't want to insult their fellow Arab Christians by claiming that the word they (Arab Christians) grew up with to mean God, is actually referring to a pagan god, AWWWWWWWWWWWWW!


    1. Arab Christians recognize there is a difference between the Muslim god and the Christian God.

    2. The people who wrote the article give no evidence to support their claims.


    3. Early Muslim scholars state Muhammed was a pagan and pagan practices such as the Hajj became part of Islam.

    4. Early Christian apologist Al-Kindy states Islam has paganistic roots.
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #27 - February 08, 2011, 02:31 AM

    Well this should be painless

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #28 - February 08, 2011, 02:32 AM

    lol
  • Re: St. John of Damascus
     Reply #29 - February 08, 2011, 02:33 AM

    Quote
    1. Arab Christians recognize there is a difference between the Muslim god and the Christian God.

    of course, Yahweh and the Quranic God are two different beings.

    Quote
    2. The people who wrote the article give no evidence to support their claims.

    so you think they made it up?

    Quote
    3. Early Muslim scholars state Muhammed was a pagan and pagan practices such as the Hajj became part of Islam.

    I have no problem believing Muhammed was a pagan (Abraham was a pagan), and your staement regarding Muslim scholars saying that hajj was a pagan ritual means you didn't understnad what they said OR they were no Muslim scholars (this issue is even menntioned in the Quran, so no Muslim scholar can be that clueless).

    More importantly, all of that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Quote
    4. Early Christian apologist Al-Kindy states Islam has paganistic roots.

    His opinions prove nothing.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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