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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheism is NOT a Belief

 (Read 17393 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #120 - October 24, 2010, 07:54 AM

    Do you mean from within the same framework? If you are, then essentially, within a given framework in which A=A happens to be the case, then, yes. Though it may be possible to have a framework in which that is not the case. Take for example, some brands of logic that deny modus ponens or the law of excluded middle (which typically seem to be self-evident).

    Sorry if I misunderstood what you said.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #121 - October 24, 2010, 08:11 AM

    If you have two eyes, how many eyes do you have?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #122 - October 24, 2010, 09:36 AM

    There is no absolute truth that's the whole point. Whatever we designate as truth, or as proof is done within our own world, whether the physical that we observe (in our minds) or the world of language and mathematics. We can not observe outside ourselves.

    What we see may all be true and it may not. But at the end of the day the rent has to be paid, the kids have to be clothed and mouths have to be fed. And my Xbox live subscription has to be renewed. For all intents and purposes my headaches that follow suit are true as well Grin
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #123 - October 24, 2010, 09:43 AM

    lol I love BD 001_wub
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #124 - October 24, 2010, 09:55 AM

    lol *blush*
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #125 - October 24, 2010, 10:11 AM

    What if we in the future create sentient life? Say AI. Will what they observe fall within the framework of our truth? Or will they discover a new truth?

    Will what they observe make our observations true? Or truer?

    Or will it be the same; since we created the robots and gave them a way of thinking they can not be outside the tools they have. Tools of observation that are either identical or similar to ours; for example they could have evolved new languages, new ways of observing the universe and new fields of science, or reconstructing science as we know it.

    How about this scenario; we encounter alien life. Do we then know the "absolute truth", or do we share a truth between ourselves? I know somebody might say infinite regress but the whole point is that at the end of the day we simply can not observe anything objectively outside ourselves.

    It is like growing up in a mansion your whole life and whatever language and tools you have to observe this house is something you have created yourself. The house was there before you and you can not see outside the house. If you one day encounter somebody else in that house, in some remote part of it, and they have also been born in the same house they will share the same difficulties with finding "absolute truth".

    Before when I was religious I told myself the only absolute truth was Allah. Because Allah created the universe and Allah was outside creation. So nothing that we had created ourselves was really true, I mean absolutely true, objectively, tangibly true. Only Allah could fit that description.

    Come to realize that Allah is created by man I had to discard that theory.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #126 - October 24, 2010, 10:13 AM

    Soliphism is almost as annoying as creationism.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #127 - October 24, 2010, 10:16 AM

    How do you know that's true?

    Jokes aside, that's not the case. Creationism is false/wrong within our framework. Might it be true or not outside our framework, we don't know. I don't understand why this is causing so much debate? It's pretty basic. And like I said it doesn't affect daily life, unless it's your profession Grin
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #128 - October 24, 2010, 10:22 AM

    I don't understand why this is causing so much debate?


    I'm a Secular Humanist.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #129 - October 24, 2010, 10:25 AM

    I'm a Secular Humanist.


    Good for you? What you want a cookie?  grin12
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #130 - October 24, 2010, 10:26 AM

    You asked.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #131 - October 24, 2010, 10:33 AM

    You asked.


    I meant in regards to what Z10 and Zoomi were talking about. I was referring to that part of this thread's discussion in my own post.

    Not your original post. Which I fully agree with.

    In my own words, atheism for me means that I don't think and believe religions and by logical extension, their gods. A theist might think this is a positive belief, as in I am forcing myself not believe. Kinda like seeing a teacup together and me insisting that's its a cantaloupe.

    Which is lending more credence to their argument than is fair. There is no teacup (or cantaloupe). There is a talk about a teacup, words written about the teacup, and its an invisible teacup, a non-observational teacup.

    The only way the teacup would be true is if I merged into the delusion or for a kinder word, fantasy, of the teacup.

    And since this world is all I have to go on, I must then conclude, within our framework and the tools we have etc etc, that there is no teacup. That I can't see it. And you sir, can't see it either. You can imagine it, and you can feel it. But you can't for certain say that it's there. End of.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #132 - October 24, 2010, 10:41 AM

    Soliphism is almost as annoying as creationism.


    Do you mean solipsism? regardless, no one here is one. Just admitting its a possibility.

    I think you've already told us several times you think our ideas are stupid and you find us annoying, so maybe you might want to chat in another thread then?  Smiley I think this one has sort of reached it's limit anyway.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #133 - October 24, 2010, 10:50 AM

    I think you've already told us several times you think our ideas are stupid and you find us annoying


    When? This isnt personal.

    My contention is: soliphism and immaterialism and other brands of unreason are counterproductive and too uncommitted for my pallette. Its like a new emergent theism. Dismantling the truth. Undermining morality. Hindering ethical progress. Falsely equivocating rational scepticism and faith without evidence - these two things are worlds apart.


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #134 - October 24, 2010, 10:57 AM

    Yeah I get it, you don't like it. But that doesn't mean it's not true. I think denying that we have no firm grasp on the truth because it makes one uncomfortable is more akin to theism, but meh. Either way, I'm sort of done posting, there's nothing more to talk about here. That isn't repetitive.

    In other news, you should start a thread with some of your artwork in it, I think that would be cool  Afro
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #135 - October 24, 2010, 11:08 AM

    Yeah I get it, you don't like it. But that doesn't mean it's not true. I think denying that we have no firm grasp on the truth because it makes one uncomfortable is more akin to theism, but meh.


    I never denied it. I agreed from the very begining that we all have beliefs without absolute certainty about many different things.

    I took issue with z10 and this line of thinking:
    Quote
    What is needed is for there to be produced a thoroughly valid reason for holding a positive belief (like materialism or scientific naturalism etc) and such a valid reason is impossible to produce and so the theist point holds. Everybody has beliefs, whether about deities or not and nobody has the right to point fingers because beliefs cannot be ranked objectively.


    Which is nonsense.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #136 - October 24, 2010, 11:09 AM

    I meant in regards to what Z10 and Zoomi were talking about. I was referring to that part of this thread's discussion in my own post.

    Not your original post. Which I fully agree with.

    In my own words, atheism for me means that I don't think and believe religions and by logical extension, their gods. A theist might think this is a positive belief, as in I am forcing myself not believe. Kinda like seeing a teacup together and me insisting that's its a cantaloupe.

    Which is lending more credence to their argument than is fair. There is no teacup (or cantaloupe). There is a talk about a teacup, words written about the teacup, and its an invisible teacup, a non-observational teacup.

    The only way the teacup would be true is if I merged into the delusion or for a kinder word, fantasy, of the teacup.

    And since this world is all I have to go on, I must then conclude, within our framework and the tools we have etc etc, that there is no teacup. That I can't see it. And you sir, can't see it either. You can imagine it, and you can feel it. But you can't for certain say that it's there. End of.

    Bloody good post, BD

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #137 - October 24, 2010, 11:35 AM

    When? This isnt personal.

    My contention is: soliphism and immaterialism and other brands of unreason are counterproductive and too uncommitted for my pallette. Its like a new emergent theism. Dismantling the truth. Undermining morality. Hindering ethical progress. Falsely equivocating rational scepticism and faith without evidence - these two things are worlds apart.



     

    As a Nihilist, and someone who is leaning towards Solipsism I think you are incredibly ignorant of the last 5 millennia of philosophical thought dealing with epistemology.

    In any case Edmund Gettier, proposed a thought experiment for this, Smith and Jones, who are awaiting the results of their applications for the same job. Each man has ten coins in his pocket. Smith has excellent reasons to believe that Jones will get the job and, furthermore, knows that Jones has ten coins in his pocket (he recently counted them). From this Smith infers, "the man who will get the job has ten coins in his pocket." However, Smith is unaware that he also has ten coins in his own pocket. Furthermore, Smith, not Jones, is going to get the job. While Smith has strong evidence to believe that Jones will get the job, he is wrong. Smith has a justified true belief that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job; however, according to Gettier, Smith does not know that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job, because Smith's belief is "...true by virtue of the number of coins in Jones's pocket, while Smith does not know how many coins are in Smith's pocket, and bases his belief...on a count of the coins in Jones's pocket, whom he falsely believes to be the man who will get the job."

    These cases fail to be knowledge because the subject's belief is justified, but only happens to be true by virtue of luck. In other words, he made the correct choice (in this case predicting an outcome) for the wrong reasons.

    René Descartes, prominent philosopher and supporter of internalism wrote that, since the only method by which we perceive the external world is through our senses, and that, since the senses are not infallible, we should not consider our concept of knowledge to be infallible. The only way to find anything that could be described as "infallibly true," he advocates, would be to pretend that an omnipotent, deceitful being is tampering with one's perception of the universe, and that the logical thing to do is to question anything that involves the senses. "Cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am) is commonly associated with Descartes' theory, because he postulated that the only thing that he could not logically bring himself to doubt is his own existence: "I do not exist" is a contradiction in terms; the act of saying that one does not exist assumes that someone must be making the statement in the first place.

    Here I will sum it up for you, like I did 7 months ago:
    I think, therefore I am. So anything outside my thoughts I cannot prove. All other 'humans' could just be a product of my imagination created by an evil genius, I've constructed a 'reality' on false perceptions/data which was (unknown to me) embedded into my mind by the evil genius.

    Now I don't have a reason to advocate this, since it is pointless, since I know none of you really exist.  

  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #138 - October 24, 2010, 08:14 PM

     beatdeadhorse
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #139 - October 24, 2010, 08:48 PM

    Left a bit ...... Aaah, that's better.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #140 - October 24, 2010, 10:53 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz2ET5K6zY0

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #141 - October 25, 2010, 12:20 AM



    As a Nihilist, and someone who is leaning towards Solipsism I think you are incredibly ignorant of the last 5 millennia of philosophical thought dealing with epistemology.

    In any case Edmund Gettier, proposed a thought experiment for this, Smith and Jones, who are awaiting the results of their applications for the same job. Each man has ten coins in his pocket. Smith has excellent reasons to believe that Jones will get the job and, furthermore, knows that Jones has ten coins in his pocket (he recently counted them). From this Smith infers, "the man who will get the job has ten coins in his pocket." However, Smith is unaware that he also has ten coins in his own pocket. Furthermore, Smith, not Jones, is going to get the job. While Smith has strong evidence to believe that Jones will get the job, he is wrong. Smith has a justified true belief that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job; however, according to Gettier, Smith does not know that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job, because Smith's belief is "...true by virtue of the number of coins in Jones's pocket, while Smith does not know how many coins are in Smith's pocket, and bases his belief...on a count of the coins in Jones's pocket, whom he falsely believes to be the man who will get the job."

    These cases fail to be knowledge because the subject's belief is justified, but only happens to be true by virtue of luck. In other words, he made the correct choice (in this case predicting an outcome) for the wrong reasons.

    René Descartes, prominent philosopher and supporter of internalism wrote that, since the only method by which we perceive the external world is through our senses, and that, since the senses are not infallible, we should not consider our concept of knowledge to be infallible. The only way to find anything that could be described as "infallibly true," he advocates, would be to pretend that an omnipotent, deceitful being is tampering with one's perception of the universe, and that the logical thing to do is to question anything that involves the senses. "Cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am) is commonly associated with Descartes' theory, because he postulated that the only thing that he could not logically bring himself to doubt is his own existence: "I do not exist" is a contradiction in terms; the act of saying that one does not exist assumes that someone must be making the statement in the first place.

    Here I will sum it up for you, like I did 7 months ago:
    I think, therefore I am. So anything outside my thoughts I cannot prove. All other 'humans' could just be a product of my imagination created by an evil genius, I've constructed a 'reality' on false perceptions/data which was (unknown to me) embedded into my mind by the evil genius.

    Now I don't have a reason to advocate this, since it is pointless, since I know none of you really exist.  




    Dude, this is some messed up shit.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #142 - October 25, 2010, 02:15 AM

    No really, anything outside yourself could hypothetically be manipulated into making you believe it is true.  It is the whole idea of the Matrix.  You could be hooked up to a virtual simulator right now and not know.  It is one of the reasons why science makes no claims to complete absolute truth, because there could be variables in play that we are not aware of.  But all this has already been explained many times over. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #143 - October 25, 2010, 02:59 AM


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #144 - October 25, 2010, 03:10 AM

    from my position, she's pointing off to my left  whistling2

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #145 - October 25, 2010, 03:14 AM

    OMG

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #146 - October 25, 2010, 04:04 AM

    Lol don't freak out so bad.  The idea is that there is a probability that their are variables outside of our knowledge.  This probability is contingent on the model's predictive or explanatory power.  So while we might all be hooked up to the Matrix the probability of it is so low as to make it unnecessary or even counter productive to claim or act on such a claim.  The universe works in probabilities.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #147 - October 25, 2010, 04:12 AM

    Who is freaking out?

    I was just surprised z10 hasn't seen The Matrix.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #148 - October 25, 2010, 04:16 AM

    That movie is good just for Carrie-Ann Moss who is sexy as fuckin hell in it.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #149 - October 25, 2010, 04:23 AM

    For Q:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uBVqEt38zY

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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