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  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #120 - February 16, 2014, 11:33 AM

    Thanks Three Smiley
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #121 - February 27, 2014, 03:11 AM

    From most offensive islamic doctrine thread:

    A close second for me after the idea of hell is the idea that this life is completely meaningless and that the “hereafter” is the only real thing worth striving for, as the Qur’an says, “And the life of this world is only an enjoyment of deception.”

    Not only does it result in so much lost potential and missed opportunity, it completely strips to nothing our only shot at experiencing this wonder of life, devaluing it even in the eyes of the believer.

    “And if you die or are killed, then to Allah is your return.”

    What a disgusting example of manipulation! If you die in the “cause” don’t worry about it because your life was worthless anyway!

    There is a hadith that says that this world and all that is in it is not worth the wing of a gnat.  

    The affects of these teachings can be seen not only in the way that many Muslims live their lives, but also in the way they view killing and the deaths of others.

    There is another hadith where, after stoning a woman to death for adultery, Muhammad tells his companions not to curse her because her penance was enough to forgive all the sins of Madinah.

    It’s this invisible, worthless currency of “forgiveness” and “reward in the afterlife” that people get duped into believing and purchasing as an investment. It pisses me off.



    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #122 - March 03, 2014, 09:42 PM

    A stoned tafsir, by dr sloth:

    This is what happened to me:


    Surah 1 In the name of allah the really fucking cool. We worship you. show us the way.

    Surah2 This is a book of guidance for believers. Believers are really cool. Nonbelievers wont believe whether or not you warn them. Allah has set a seal on their hearts, and they are pretty much fucked. People who only pretend to believe in Allah are also fucked.. Worship allah, who invented the universe etc. But if you don’t believe this book, then see if you can make a verse as brilliant as these. When you fail, you should be afraid of hell, because you are screwed. Allah doesn’t mind using analogies that may sound stupid. Allah created you, and everything else, and he knows everything. Allah said he was going to make adam as a deputy on earth. But the angels thought that was a bad idea. Allah taught adam the names of stuff on earth. The angels didn’t know the names of this stuff, and so they realized that allah knew what he was doing, and they bowed down to adam. One of them didn’t bow because he rejects faith. Allah warned adam of the tree in the garden of eden, but satan screwed things up for adam and eve, and they had to live on earth instead of the garden of eden. Allah will give you guidance but if you reject it, you are screwed. Believe this, be scared, and worship allah. Yo jews. Remember that you were my chosen people. And I sorted you out. Don’t deny me, worship me. You fucked up quite a few times. I forgave you but you were pretty unappreciative and spoilt. When I asked you to sacrifice a cow, you were fannying around because you didn’t know which type of cow to sacrifice.

    When you killed someone, you accused each other. I said, hit the dead guy with a piece of cow. That’s how I bring people back to life, and show you a miracle. But you were stubborn, and I wont forget it.

    Given that jews knowingly corrupt the quran, can you really expect them to believe you. They pretend to believe when they are with muslims, but get pissed off with each other for chatting to muslims about what I have revealed to them, because it could be used against them. Some people make fake holy books. They are screwed. But the righteous believers will be in paradise You Jews broke my covenant, and are screwed. I know about all the shit you get up to. What was your beef with jesus? You know this book is the truth, why deny it? You are screwed.

    “The disbelievers will suffer a humiliating torment.” They say they don’t believe this book, but I don’t see why, because it confirms my earlier work. They are such dickheads, greedy too. I might change my mind and contradict myself, but just roll with it. Just go with whatever I am currently saying Muslims are cool. Allah is cool. He is too cool to have a son. He is seriously cool, honestly. Idiots wonder why I havnt provided any evidence, but I have. It’s very clear. Anyone who doesn’t believe this book is certainly a loser.

    Use Mecca as a place for prayer. Abraham asked me to provide for the believers in Mecca. I said I would, but I’m going to fuck over the deniers. By the way, Abraham is cool. He is a muslim, not a jew or a Christian. If you don’t believe that, ask yourself who knows more. Me or you? Muslims and muhammed are an example for everyone to follow. You should face mecca when you pray. I know that I have changed the direction from Jerusalem to mecca, but it is a test.

    People who die for my cause are not really dead. They are cool. I shall test you through suffering, you better not moan too much.

    Atheists will be condemned by me, the angels, and all people. They “will have no relief from the torment, and no attention will be paid to them”. If you are not too stupid, you will realise that rain, winds, clouds, etc are all evidence of my existence. Unbelievers are really dumb.

    There is lots of shit you should not eat, but I wont mind if its an emergency. Unbelievers will burn etc. Fasting is mandatory during Ramadan, but you are allowed to Shag your wives. Don’t enter a house through the back door. Fight in my name, the people who fight you. Kill them wherever you find them. Being a disbeliever is worse than murder. Disbelievers deserve to be slayed, unless they convert to Islam. Fight them until they are no longer atheists and non muslims. Fight them until Islam is dominant. Chill out if they convert.

    Do a pilgrimage to Mecca.

    Even though you don’t like fighting, it is mandatory, and its good for you. I don’t care what good an apostate has done in his life. He is fucked, forever. A womans period is a pollution. Don’t go near them. Your wives are your property. You can shag them whenever you want. Men are above women. ….rules about how long to wait after divorce, breastfeeding, marriage, prayers, loans…. Allah is cool. Muhammed is cool. Jesus is cool. Allah is cool Nobody can ever learn anything unless I let them. Allah is cool. Interest sucks, so does alcohol. Allah is brilliant, and mega powerful.

    Surah 3 Allah is brilliant and unique and sent down The quran which confirms previous messages. It is a guide and a criterion for right and wrong. Non believers are fucked. Allah is really clever and knows everything and created mankind.

    The main parts of the quran have a clear meaning, but other parts are shit, and nobody can understand them. Dickheads will follow the shit parts. Non muslims are definately fucked. Tell them they are fucked

    Its better to aim to be close to Allah than for worldy possessions. Try to convince christians and jews to become muslims. Some will refuse because they think they are safe. but in fact, they are fucked. Don't choose a non muslim as a friend over a muslim. Allah is nice to those who submit.

    Some woman dedicated her kid called mary to Allah, and Allah liked this, and made sure that mary and her offspring had it sorted. Some old guy noticed that Allah had sorted her out, and asked allah for him and his old and infertile wife to have a kid. Allah said yes, and explained that he can sort it out. Allah chose Mary to give birth to a messenger for the jews called jesus. Mary was confused because she was a virgin, but allah said he can sort it out.

    Jesus could do miracles to prove that he was a prophet. But still some people werent convinced, and these people plotted and planned. But allah is better at plotting and planning and told jesus that he would defend him from all the bullshit the plotters chat. Non muslims are fucked, muslims get rewarded.

    Dont doubt the quran. If anyone disagrees with this, get your crew together and pray for a curse on this person. There is only one god, and he is definately really great, and that is true.

    Ask the christians and the jews why they doubt my story about abraham being a muslim. They dont know what they are talking about. They shouldnt talk about things they have no idea about. christians and jews are shit for many different reasons. If you have this book, and you understand it properly, you will definately be a muslim, and call others to be. Angels and prophets cannot be gods, only the morons believe that.

    Once you submit to allah, allah gives you belief, and so its not possible to no longer believe in Islam. Anybody who leaves Islam is a "perverted transgressor". All things obey allah, whether willingly or unwillingly. Islam is the only acceptable religion. non muslims are going to hell. If you leave islam and then come back, that will probably be OK, but if you dont, you are FUCKED!

    you have to make some sacrifices. Jews made up their own dietary laws. The message I gave them was true. If they make stuff up that I didnt say, they are lying.

    The first mosque was at Mecca, and you have to go there, unless you cant afford to. the christians and jews are trying to obstruct people from the right path, and if you listen to them you might leave islam, which doesnt make sense. Definately be a muslim. Muslims are cool.

    Allah's signs are clear. dont dispute them and become divided. If you do, you are fucked.

    On judgement day, non muslims will have black faces, and are fucked. This is not unjust because Allah is brilliant and he says so. Muslims are the best. Most Christians and Jews are twats. They are annoying, but they cant hurt you. Allah is angry with these destitute, and shameful rebels. But some of them are alright.

    Non muslims are fucked, and they only have themselves to blame. Stick to your own. Other people want to fuck you up. They may say that they believe in islam, but they are bullshitting. Don't trust these cunts.

    Allah helped you win some battles because you were shit and needed a lot of help. Show some gratitude.

    Allah owns everything, and he does whatever the fuck he likes. He is most forgiving and merciful. Non muslims are fucked. Heaven is a garden with rivers, as big as the universe in which you can live forever. Its very nice. But only Allah can forgive sins and this book is a guide to get you there.

    If you get harmed, makes sure the others get harmed too. These things are tests for believers, and Allah may take some people as martyr witnesses. Allah tests those who fight in his name and who wished for death.

    muhammed is just one of a long line of messengers. Allah rewards people who serve Muhammed. Submitters will be rewarded in this life and the next. Many prophets faught for Allah, and they didnt mind even if they failed, and they never gave up. Allah rewarded them with some really cool stuff. Allah helps and protects muslims from the unbelievers. "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers" because they joined partners with Allah. They are fucked.

    Allah gave you permission to annihilate your enemy, but you started messing around, thinking about the booty. Some of you are more interested in this world than the next. But He forgave you because you are muslims.

    Dont be like the unbelievers, who are cowards. If allah has decreed that you are going to die, then you are going to die, whether you fight or not. It is better to be dead and forgiven, than alive and unforgiven. Trust in Allah. If it is his will, you will always win. Don't think of those who die in my name as dead. Dont fear anything except me. Non muslims are fucked. Be a Muslim.

    Allah has given clear signs. people who reject them are fucked. muslims are rewarded. blah blah blah. non muslims are fucked. hell. Heaven. hell. heaven. yadda yadda. Fear Allah


    I did the next chapter too later on, but I think the quran goes significantly downhill after the first few surahs, and they were tedious enough already.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #123 - March 06, 2014, 02:18 PM

    The idea that positive thinking can manifest destiny is offensive quackery, the philosophy of the safe-living privileged that likes to believe their lot was hard won through personal effort and likes how that illusion makes them feel. It is not the philosophy of someone who has traversed hardship. It's the idiot pigeon that thinks it is the act of spinning around three times that made the food come down the chute.

    Positive thinking, to me, has always been more about coping with the bad shit. Salvaging a play from the hand you get dealt. But more than that, it has always been about social dynamics. Nobody wants to be around an emotional vampire that drains the life out of a situation and needs picking up all the time. That means there will be a net loss for everyone until you get back in synch. Positivity means you're pulling your weight, which will have a knock-on effect and be more conductive to proactivity, in turn making it easier and more satisfying to be a positive influence.

    And it seems to me that it takes the same amount of energy to dwell on something than it does to discern the good and discard the rest. And that you can train yourself, either actively and consciously or by falling into habit, to naturally do one or the other.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #124 - March 25, 2014, 12:03 PM

    shit this reminds me of my own feelings...  Cry I remember going completely insane of the thought of my parents going to hell. I spent some months in complete paranoia about this, seriously. I remember being with a group of muslima's at home and we were discussing this and I just freaked out, started crying, felt like I was going insane. I didn't want to go to heaven if I couldn't take them with me! These muslima's only repeated but god loves you so much this is why he has guided you to islam, I thought well what kind of a shit bastard is he for not guiding everybody then and on top of that giving me all this paranoia.

    From that point on it became impossible for me to look at other people without thinking about some of them (or actually, it might be the majority in my kaafir country) going to hell. It was the roughest period I ever experienced in my life! Then I read the following story one day in a magazine and it was the turning point. I didn't want to give in to it at first because well we all know, the fear of hell and all that... but this story was so much more important to me than all that bullshit in the Koran. Maybe some of you have read it before, it is by Paulo Coelho.

    "A man, his horse and his dog were traveling down a road. When they were passing by a gigantic tree, a bolt of lightning struck and they all fell dead on the spot.

    But the man did not realize that he had already left this world, so he went on walking with his two animals; sometimes the dead take time to understand their new condition…

    The journey was very long, uphill, the sun was strong and they were covered in sweat and very thirsty. They were desperately in need of water. At a bend in the road they spotted a magnificent gateway, all in marble, which led to a square paved with blocks of gold and with a fountain in the center that spouted forth crystalline water.

    The traveler went up to the man guarding the gate.

    “Good morning.”

    “Good morning,” answered the man.

    “What is this beautiful place?”

    “This is heaven.”

    “How good to have reached heaven, we’re ever so thirsty.”

    “You can come in and drink all you want.”

    And the guard pointed to the fountain.

    “My horse and my dog are thirsty too.”

    “So sorry, but animals aren’t allowed in here.”

    The man was very disappointed because his thirst was great, but he could not drink alone; he thanked the man and went on his way. After traveling a lot, they arrived exhausted at a farm whose entrance was marked with an old doorway that opened onto a tree-lined dirt road.

    A man was lying down in the shadow of one of the trees, his head covered with a hat, perhaps asleep.

    “Good morning,” said the traveler.

    The man nodded his head.

    “We are very thirsty – me, my horse and my dog.”

    “There is a spring over in those stones,” said the man, pointing to the spot. “Drink as much as you like.”

    The man, the horse and the dog went to the spring and quenched their thirst. Then the traveler went back to thank the man.

    “By the way, what’s this place called?”

    “Heaven.”

    “Heaven? But the guard at the marble gate back there said that was heaven!”

    “That’s not heaven, that’s hell.”

    The traveler was puzzled.

    “You’ve got to stop this! All this false information must cause enormous confusion!”

    The man smiled:

    “Not at all. As a matter of fact they do us a great favor. Because over there stay all those who are even capable of abandoning their best friends…” "

     It was the start of my apostasy in retrospect because once I went through this I fully realised the truth of islam. Slowly, when I was praying, I found it harder and harder to kneel... simply I couldn't do it anymore. I feel sorry for Hamza and all the others, even my ex-husband who has to live the rest of his life with the thought that he can't be with the woman he sincerely loved and that she will go to hell forever.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #125 - March 25, 2014, 12:09 PM

    Amazing story

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #126 - March 25, 2014, 01:49 PM

     thnkyu that was a lovely story

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #127 - March 25, 2014, 04:01 PM

    Quote
    “Not at all. As a matter of fact they do us a great favor. Because over there stay all those who are even capable of abandoning their best friends…” "


    Exactly. That's not heaven. But Allah the most Merciful will make you forget eveything. So you will live without having to worry about your son or daughter burning in hell.

    What  an empty place.
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #128 - March 27, 2014, 12:48 PM

    I get that. My biggest fear is missed opportunity. I don't want to be an old man on my death bed looking back on a life filled with regret. I wish I'd had one more drink. I wish I'd got on that train. I wish I'd kissed the girl. Fuck that shit. Grab life by the balls and live it.

     


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #129 - March 31, 2014, 03:15 PM

    I'm not sure exactly what your tutor thinks is wrong in your reasoning? This is how I see it, from what I know and from my own experience both as a very devout Muslim not wearing the Muslim attire, a devout Muslim wearing full coverage, an apostate wearing full coverage and now finally an apostate free to dress however she wants.

    First of all, the Muslim attire for women is seen as an obligation within Muslim community in general. This is because theologically, if a woman does not cover everything except her face and hands (and in some cases the feet are exempted), she is sinning and there are specific religious texts describing horrific tortures that are exclusively for women making "wanton display". Already with this is mind, the question whether or not a Muslim woman wears the dress "out of free will" becomes complicated. How free can you be when you genuinely believe that you are threatened by an all-powerful supreme being if you do not conform to the norms of your religion/faith?

    Secondly, as a Muslim dealing and socializing with the Muslim community, the pressure to wear Muslim dress is always present. Some experience it more than others, depending on how conservative the particular group is that you "belong" to or with whom you socialize. I come from a western European country and when I became a Muslim the question of hijab and niqab became immediately important. Sometimes I got brash and even insolent comments and "hints" and "advise" from my "sisters" about wearing hijab. "Where's your hijab, sister?" were rhetorical questions that were very common. Then you have all the looks and hints from your "brothers" of their disapproval. And I haven't even begun talking about relatives and family if you are born into a Muslim family. A lot of women here have talked about how hijab just became a "natural choice" made by the parents once they reached a certain age, after that it was inconceivable to take it off.

    Thirdly, even if you haven't experienced that much of a pressure about your clothing but started wearing it "our of belief", if you would later on chose to change it (for example stop wearing the niqab, or start wearing regular skirts instead of abayas etc) or take it off completely, you would definitely face reaction from the community without a doubt. How many times have I encountered "sisters" who have done exactly that, and they talked about how people started gossiping and confronting her about her "loss of iman".

    And this is where I come to another important note, and that is that a Muslim woman's worth, modesty, faith, devotion, all of it, lays in the way she dresses. If you see women in long dresses and hijabs all in black, a lot of Muslim (ESPECIALLY men I can tell you) go on like "Oh mashaallah, what sisters, may allah reward you". It gives the women status, they climb up the ladder of desirability on the marriage market as well as socially. She is a "good" Muslim and people would want to befriend her.

    So yes, of course there are a lot of women who "chose" to wear the Muslim attire. I "chose" to wear it our of belief and faith (if I didn't, allah would torture me in hell. Of course I put it on), even though I did meet some pressure about my way of dressing. Even after putting on the niqab, when I decided to stop wearing gloves, I got comments about that choice. Hadn't I been a "I do whatever I want, fuck you" kind of person, I would have been pressured into putting them on again as I've seen a lot of women do. And they do that because they get scared of "doing something wrong". When I started wearing colorful hijabs and niqab, wearing colors that would be provocative for some (like red, purple and so on), I also received "advise" about my choices. It was not modest enough, you see. I drew attention to myself from men.

    Finally, the most important thing I think often gets lost in these kind of discussions, and that is even if we assume that the woman was totally free to take her decision to cover herself, maybe even her face, the interesting question is what would the reactions be if she chose to take it off and would she even be allowed to do so? I wore the niqab for almost 7 years out of belief, but the day I said to my now ex-husband "I don't want to wear in anymore", it was out of the question that I could make that decision by myself. To take off the full hijab was even more taboo, that was not even on the map to discuss. And I would have been totally ostracized by my friends and community if I would have done that while still being a Muslim wanting to have contact with them.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #130 - April 02, 2014, 10:44 AM

    “And Obey Allah and his messenger”

    Whoever obeys Allah and his messenger has achieved the greatest achievement”

    “They ask you concerning the spoils of war, say ‘the spoils of war are for Allah and his messenger.’”

    “Verily, those who swore fealty to you, Oh Muhammad, swore fealty to Allah. Allah’s hand was over their hands”

    “And you did not throw, Oh Muhammad, when you threw, but it was Allah who threw.”

    "It is not befitting for a believer, male or female, when Allah and his messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any other preference from their own opinions.”

    The Qur’an goes on and on like this. No Muslim, ever, has seen or heard Allah. He was as silent then as he is now. To the believer then, all they have to go by to understand Allah is Muhammad’s words. That is true both in theory and in practice, apparently and metaphorically. All of the zeal that they feel about “Allah” really derives from the desires of Muhammad. And Muhammad desired to be loved and obeyed. “None of you truly believes until I (Muhammad) and more beloved to him than his father, his son, and all of mankind.” “Nay, by your lord, they shall never believe until they make you the judge in all matters that arise among them, then find no uneasiness in their hearts regarding what you have decreed; rather, they submit with complete submission!”

    Muhammad is the idol. He is the de facto god. The words are his words projected onto the non-existent Allah, and so are the commandments. That is why Muslims revere him the way that they do. They could never say “Muhammad says this, but Allah says that.” Whatever Muhammad says is what “Allah” says; whatever he wants is what “Allah” wants. They essentially become one and the same. And that is exactly what we see today.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #131 - April 02, 2014, 07:27 PM

    First of all, there is no "moderate Islam in Britain" or "British Islam". That is not how it works. Islam doesn't change like that. There are British secular, modern Muslims who barely identify as Muslims except "culturally" or as an "ethnicity". Then you have the more extreme salafi-inspired groups or Hizb al-Tahrir. They are all British Muslims. And between these two "extremes" you have a variety of interpretations and outlooks.

    I'm not going to be like the extremists and fundamentalists and say that Islam is one. Islam isn't just one Islam, but there are only one quran and one corpora of hadith. That is Islam. But then depending on what you choose to follow and how you choose to interpret it, as well as if you are given the freedom to do so (which is not the case in most Muslim countries especially those governed by shariah inspired laws), you can choose what Islam is your Islam.

    I have not come across a single Muslim, irregardless if they are more "modern" or more conservative, who have held the view that Muslims are free to disown their religion. Even those who say that "well, you can't force people to believe" thing that apostates are one of the worst creatures because they "knew" the truth and then rejected it. Maybe I'm a bit bold here generalizing, but I would say that the majority of Muslims in the world look at apostates with contempt, suspicion and sometimes even hate and ill-will. A lot of du'aat and scholars, even those who preach in the west, express ideas how all apostates always "wage war" against Islam (by criticizing and speaking out against certain Islamic beliefs and practices) and that is why the death penalty is necessary.

    I also believe that there was a study conducted where more that half of Britain's Muslim youth (it was way higher than 50 % but I don't remember the exact numbers now, it's out there on the internet somewhere) said that they supported shariah-law and that they wanted to implement it in Britain if they could. I would say that at least 90 % of those who actually support shariah-aw also support the idea that ex-Muslims who are open about it should be "silenced". It has been said before, but Muslims commonly refer to "extremist ex-Muslims" as those ex-Muslims who do not go and hide and who choose not to speak up. "Good" ex-Muslims are those who shut the fuck up and won't dare to criticize the religion they left due to various reasons. That is why within traditional Islamic law and thinking, you can in theory be an apostate, as long as you keep it secret and still outwardly pretend to be a Muslim. This is also a common reaction you get from Muslims who won't back down in regards do the apostate law, and that is "well, as long as they don't go about and proclaim it to the whole of society"... you know, because it causes fitnah and tribulation within society Roll Eyes


    Also, as lua said, there is a reason why so many Muslims who "speak for Islam" like Ramadan and Francois-Cerrah never give an honest and clear cut answer to the "tricky hard questions".


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #132 - April 06, 2014, 06:06 PM

    Xians drop parts of the OT which contradict their current social norms. Xians hold on to Paulism first and foremost as he provides the grounds for dismissing what they do not agree with. This is the key concept of  Paulism, the faith conforms to your standards rather than requiring you to conform to the faith's standards. Paul made the case for cherry pickers of faith. They can hold core concepts which are required to follow Paulism, the rest goes into the trash bin only to be picked through when someone doesn't like pork, homosexuals, women, etc.

    It is similar to the moral relativism of western Muslims. Mo is the prime example for all of mankind but say his marriage to Aisha can only be judged in the context of time, place and culture. If you point out the logical conclusion of this moral relativism one can dismiss Islam as only for Arabia in the 7th century. X verse in Hadiths is valid but Y verse is not, etc. Its a game of of choose your own religion similar to children's books based on the idea of "choose your own adventure"


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #133 - April 07, 2014, 09:41 AM

    Interesting but the poster of this video makes some mistakes and omits some facts.

    That humans evolved from other animals was first posited by the ancient Greek Anaximander of Miletus and Epicurus amongst others, and throughout history but it wasnt until Darwin and Wallace really had the mechanism of Natural Selection nailed down.

    The video poster and Sir William Draper both also make the same mistake that Islamic apologists do in that although Ibn Khaldun, may have considered himself Muslim, it was not because of the truth of Islam or from reading the Quran that he reached this conclusion, but rather by observation of the natural world and his reasoning (ie Science). To call Khaldun's great works 'a product of Mohamed' is asinine. If Khaldun was alive today and made his claim in any mosque, I dare say he would receive the same anger that Usama Hasan did.

    Also in any case, his works contradict the Quran, and both Draper's and the poster's claim that evolution was the 'Mohamedan Theory of Evolution' or predicted by Mohamed is laughable. Just ask Usama Hasan what reaction he received at Leyton Mosque when he suggested that man evolved from apes and the implication that had for the claims in the Quran.

    This is why I never use the term ISLAMIC Golden Age, because it is generally assumed that this proves the religion or the god they worship so I say 'ARABIC Golden Age".

    No-one would suggest that what any historical scientist discovered was any proof of the god he may have worshipped. Same with this video.

    Any Christian or Muslim who claims that evolution is in their holy book I would like to present Robert Ingersoll's quote on the matter:

    "The Church demonstrated the falsity and folly of Darwin's theories by showing that they contradicted the Mosaic account of creation, and now that the theories of Darwin having been fairly established, the Church says that the Mosaic account is true because it is in harmony with Darwin. Now, if it should turn out that Darwin was mistaken, what then?"


    To accentuate the issue, lets say that evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, and science claims that the earth and all living things were really  created in 6 days, then evolutionist Muslims and Christians would drop Darwin like a hot potato and claim that the bible/quran was correct all along.






    Adey5

    Heh. The thing about the Ibn Khaldun quotes is that they're completely decontextualised ( and tendentiously so, as the passage between them would blow the whole idea to bits if it wasn't  omitted ) from a very long discussion about the types of supernatural perception that are encountered in the world, and how it is possible for a prophet to "connect" with the angelic world ( the pinnacle of the scala vita ) thereby. Anyone who actually bothers to read the section  ( the sixth prefatory note ) in Ibn Khaldun, and has some background in the way that neo-platonised aristotelian categories are used in medieval thought would understand perfectly well that the idea of biological evolution is completely foreign  ( and abhorrent ) to Ibn Khaldun; he's simply constructing an elegant and elaborate ladder of creation on the classical Aristotelian model so as to "prove" that it's possible for the "prophetic" human to partake in the angelic realm and be the conduit of revelation. Elsewhere - in his discussion of racial types - we can definitively see that Ibn Khaldun does not have a conception of biological inheritance, and simply doesn't understand the idea of the transmission of heritable characteristics from parent to child.

    Ibn Khaldun wasn't a scientist, let alone a biologist or observer of the natural world, in any modern sense of the term - he was a historian, metaphysician, judge and political administrator.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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     Reply #134 - April 07, 2014, 02:09 PM

    The awesome Happy Murtad on Islamic sects and interpretation.

    It's a common misconception to have. It is one that I certainly had when I was a Muslim and one that prevented me from reinterpreting Islam to match my own intellectual and philosophical growth.

    The things is, subscribing to the idea of a "true" Islam is playing directly into the hands of the sects that want their narrow interpretation of the religion to be the only interpretation. The fact of the matter is that Muslims have never all unanimously agreed on a single interpretation of Muhammad's words. This is a huge part of the reason why, immediately after he died, the community spiraled into utter chaos. Zakat, the third pillar of "mainstream" Islam, was viewed by some who identified as Muslim as no longer being valid. The question of succession, the role of the Khalifah, the nature of the Qur'an, the permissibly of logic and deduction, the roles of sin and fate, the definitions of iman, and kufr...all of these issues and many more were fiercely debated. What survives today is simply what has survived, not what was necessarily "true."

    I have evolved on this issue since I first left Islam. I now think that we do ourselves no favors by insisting that the literalists have their way in monopolizing the faith. There are today those who accept the term Muslim yet reject the ideas of Jannah, Jahannam, creationism, and a God overly interested in the affairs of men. As disingenuous as this may come across to those of us familiar with a very different brand of Islam, it is necessary for the internal development of the religion and its adherents.

     

    There were way too many groups and ideas floating around to even begin to argue that there has ever been a single "true" interpretation. You had the Khawarij who had their own distinct views on sin and redemption. You had the Mu'tazila who emerged later, introducing elements of logic and philosophy. You had the Shia who, when you think about it, make some compelling arguments in relation to the events surrounding the murder of Muhammad's family and the rule of Banu Umayyah. You had the Thaahiriyyah, the Maa Turidiyyah, the A'shariyyah, and many, many more schools of thought, not to mention the differences between the four "mainstream" schools of thought.

    Islam is not and never has been one thing. It is an umbrella term. A loose collection of ideas based on the Qur'an and Muhammad's life, words and deeds. It's not set in stone. It's not the property of a single group or a single state. And most importantly, it is not divine. It is a human product. Like all human products, it necessarily changes and adapts with time.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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     Reply #135 - April 08, 2014, 02:19 PM

    Bill'y's quote on the Cave metaphor.

    I was just reading a book on Plato and Socrates, and how the metaphor for the cave that they use is about humanity being restricted by what they can perceive in the cave they live in, and how we can achieve enlightenment by looking beyond the cave. Such a contrast with the Quran, which basically says the darkness of the cave of Islam is enlightenment.

     


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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     Reply #136 - April 13, 2014, 09:02 AM

    It's not about getting strength, it's about soldiering on. Sometimes life is hard, it's so hard, and it saps us of our strength, but we keep going anyway because we have to. When it's over, we rest.






    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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     Reply #137 - April 13, 2014, 11:21 AM

    Thanks QSE. I need to write it down and post it in my bedroom wall for constant reminders.
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     Reply #138 - April 14, 2014, 09:26 PM

    The verse of the sword
    My take on this verse is a combination of the two. I don’t have any Islamic references available right now to site particular names, so if someone else can back me up, that would be great.

    Firstly, it is true that according to the seerah, the verse was revealed regarding a breach of truce. However, the circumstances of the breach still lead me to conclude that Muhammad was being a bit opportunistic with his declaration of war. Contrary to what sNaik implies, the Makkans did not break the truce directly by attacking the Muslims on their turf. Rather, a tribe (the name of which slips my memory now) that was allied with the Makkans had a skirmish with a tribe that was allied with the Madinites (Muhammad’s crew), and thus the treaty was considered by Muhammad to have been broken. Muhammad then used this as an opportunity to declare war and invade Makkah.

    As for the implications of the verse itself, the scholars of tafseer have historically held that this verse abrogates all other verses advocating peace. It is not some western conspiracy to paint this verse as a general sanction for war against disbelievers. It is a very traditional, well-rooted Islamic position.

    This leads me to my last point regarding God’s apparent inability to communicate effectively. Allah is very specific, for example, regarding what to do and what specific steps should be taken if you call your wife your mother in a fit of rage or if you divorce your wife more than twice. When it comes to apparently sanctioning the besieging and killing of 70% of humanity, however, God is much less clear on exactly what should be done.

    He could have said, for example, “Oh ye who believe, when ye are in battle against the Makkans for breaching the hudhaibiya treaty, kill the disbelieving makkan soldiers where ever you find them. Once the battle is over, however, do not kill innocent disbelievers! Verily Allah is ever watchful over you. And if a pagan does not try to harm you directly, then you should cause no harm to them. Surely, Allah loves not those who terrorize the innocent.”  That would save a lot of confusion.



    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #139 - April 14, 2014, 09:54 PM

    ^ I think it's been said here before, but everything HM writes should be directly forwarded to this thread.
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     Reply #140 - April 14, 2014, 09:56 PM

    Yeah. There isn't a lot of logic involved in determining what is najas and what is not. I remember thinking even back then how strange it is that the saliva of a dog is considered najas although it is relatively harmless, while the saliva of a komodo dragon, which is teeming with parasites and can actually kill you, would ostensibly be considered tahir.

    I think Islam's general fear of everything that comes out of the female body is primarily at play here. It calls to mind the fact that the urine of a nursing boy is considered pure, while the urine of a nursing girl is considered impure. I remember a shaikh gave the explanation that the penis serves to "filter" the pee to make it pure. (I remember this because he Arabicized the word filter in a way I'd never heard - "yufaltiru" Grin)

    As with most rulings in Islam though, Muhammad did things that completely contradicted what he taught. For example, there was a well in Madinah called the well of Budhaa', if my memory serves me correctly, that was used as a sort of dumping ground for trash, animal carcasses, and the rags women would use from their periods. Muhammad would make wudhu in this well and when his followers asked him about it, he said "if water is more than two qulla, nothing can make it impure." Of course, there are about a million different interpretations as to exactly what a qulla is, but it shows Muhammad really did not understand much about germ theory and the spread of disease.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #141 - April 14, 2014, 10:03 PM

    Quod has sated my appetite for flattery today. Your rains shall come on time and your harvests shall be fruitful.
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     Reply #142 - April 14, 2014, 10:06 PM

    It was already raining here, and I haven't flattered you for ages. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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     Reply #143 - April 14, 2014, 10:12 PM

    Rather nice here. Window wide open, slight chill, full moon shining brightly in a clear night sky. Lovely. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #144 - April 14, 2014, 10:17 PM

    It's all about combing through these random, obscure utterances attributed to the prophet and trying to make some sort of sense out of them all. It really is a complete mess. Muhammad was reported to have done all sorts of contradictory things as well, so it becomes impossible to have a firm ruling. So many examples come to mind. Muhammad would tell his followers "Don't face the Qibla while taking a dump." Then, one of his wives would come along with another narration and say, "I once walked in on the prophet taking a dump and he was facing the qibla." So, now you have to combine the two into some profound, ad hoc lesson. "This shows us that it is generally disliked to face the Qibla while taking a dump. But if one is in a situation where he is not sure of the direction of the Qibla, or if he forgets, then there is no harm upon him." And so on. There are many, many examples like that.

    And it's usually Muhammad's wives that got him into trouble with his double speak. Muhammad would say "don't bathe in leftover bathwater that another person has used." Then his wife Maimuna came along and told the world that he would bathe in her leftover bath water.

    Muhammad would tell people not to sleep after sex without taking a bath, then Aisha would come along and say that he went to sleep after sex without touching water.

    Of course, we can trust the ahadith about as much as we can trust any other 200 year long rumor, but when people talk about Islamic law being so "perfect" and "comprehensive," I can't help but sigh because even at its most basic, mundane level, it is anything but.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #145 - April 14, 2014, 10:19 PM

    Rather nice here. Window wide open, slight chill, full moon shining brightly in a clear night sky. Lovely. Smiley

    Ah yes, you'd be having spring. I'm having autumn. Sounds much like the nights here at the moment (apart from intermittent clouds and rain here).

    Mind you, "slight chill" over here means "Hmm, if it gets much colder I may swap a t shirt for something a tad warmer and contemplate wearing socks and boots outside".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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     Reply #146 - April 14, 2014, 10:30 PM

     Cheesy I enjoy low temperature.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #147 - April 14, 2014, 10:58 PM

    You remember on your intro post I said that I have none English family but I call myself English because I identify more with England? I was speaking to a lad in the same situation as you, he's of south Asian origin. and being an only child (rare for that culture) there's a huge pressure to conform and I gave him some advice that comes from my own background. Born into a family from one culture, yet raised in a country of another culture. Sometimes you can wonder what you are. are you this or are you that? Am I Asian or am I British?

    One of the things I said to him is that he isn't just Asian, he's also English. His Asian heritage will always play a role in shaping him, all his life, but he has another one as well. You cannot be born and raised in England and it not have an effect. You don't have to give up your Asian culture but you can also explore your English culture, find the best of both of them. It's how I am. I love the cultural heritage of my family but at the same I also embrace the culture of my home. I don't reject or leave behind one or the other, because both of them belong to me.

    Perhaps this is a view you could also adopt. If you were raised here, I probably have more in common with you than you would a Somali born and raised in that country, just as I probably have more in common with you than I do with another white man from France or Germany or whatever.

    You were born to a Somali family and raised in England. You're the child of two cultures. Don't reject either of them, embrace them both. They will both shape you and they both belong to you


    by the quod guru

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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     Reply #148 - April 20, 2014, 03:44 PM

    From Ex Hijabi's Wordpress

    Quote
                  When I was a kid, the only thing I ever wanted to be was a teenager. You could say that I had fallen for the image the media had presented for those turbulent years. I was convinced that my life would be like the TV shows that had teenage girls driving big, beautiful cars to school. I pretended I was there, laughing along side them when they teased each other over high school crushes or shed tears over their broken hearts. I didn’t fully understand the teenage world, but I was convinced that it was much better than what I had. While my friends already had their perfect weddings all squared away in their minds, I daydreamed about spending my Saturday afternoons in the mall without my mom following after me. It’s safe to say that I had placed all of my childhood hopes and dreams into those seven short years and expected them to be the best of my life.

                And, of course, I was wrong.

                I can’t tell you what I did for my thirteenth birthday or how I spent my summer that year, but I do remember starting eighth grade on a pessimistic note. Things just weren’t working in my favor. My two close friends had moved away over the summer, and my remaining friends and I had grown apart. A trait I had once recognized as shyness was giving way to social awkwardness and it made me realize that making friends was never going to get any easier. My parents and Disney had both lied to me. Being a teenager didn’t make life any better, it just made the world colder.


                I remember when it came time to pick partners for a year-long math project; I sank into my desk, already wishing for eighth grade to be over with. All around me, girls I had known for years got up from their seats and excitedly asked each other whose group they would be a part of, ignoring me completely. I could hear them laughing all around me and speaking in hushed tones. The boys on the other side of the room were doing the same. When I realized I wouldn’t disappear just by closing my eyes, I dragged my feet across the room to my teacher’s desk and mumbled out the most humiliating sentence I could think of, “I don’t have a partner.” There was a brief flash of pity in her eyes before she turned away from me and called out to the girls, “Who needs an extra member in their group?” And without even turning around, I knew what the girls were thinking, Not me.

                Without my old friends from elementary school around, I tried my best to integrate myself into another group, but it never worked. My social skills were dismal at best. I was bad at starting up conversations and it felt like puberty finally remembered me and did its worse. On top of it all, my grades were falling, and though I blamed it on the afterschool activities I took part in that year, I knew it was because of my growing disinterest. I don’t know when it was exactly that everything started to overwhelm me, but I remember the moments I realized it. It was when my teacher had asked me if I was going to write “another depressing story”. It was when my brother wondered out loud when the last time he had seen me happy was. It was when a few classmates and I were making our way to our lockers and I had been talking about a book series I enjoyed with another girl when someone interrupted us and asked, “You talk about this all of the time. Do you even care about anything else? About school?”

                With school came my disinterest in Islam. I purposely left my Quran memorizations to the last minute when I knew I wouldn’t have a chance at getting a passing grade, much less the As that I was used to. I stopped paying attention in my Islamic Studies classes because the subject no longer captivated me. Gone was the girl who raced to the family computer to loudly blast verses from her favorite chapters, now this girl could care less. Now this girl found the drone of poetic Arabic grating. My parents did the best they could to understand me, first punishing me for my bad grades, then asking me what I expected from them. They were confused. My other siblings were fine. Why was I pulling away from them when I used to run home just to get the chance to relay my day?

                I was confused, too. It seemed I could go from crying to smiling within hours, but for the most part, I was just unhappy. And it made no sense. When I was sent to the principal’s office one afternoon, I broke down into tears in front of the secretary – something I had never done before. She, seemingly embarrassed by my outburst, told me that I had to grow up and be a respectful young lady before letting me leave with a warning. My teachers wondered what had happened, but none of them ever spoke directly to me. There were days when I would just lay on my bedroom floor, listening to the radio, and waiting for the future to make everything go away. I was never actively suicidal, but I definitely entertained suicidal thoughts whenever I was in the car, telling myself that if we got into a car crash and I died, I wouldn’t even care.

                Looking back now, I wish someone had told me I was depressed. I wish my parents had taken me to a therapist so I could talk to them. But no one did. No one understood what depression was or that I had it. They only knew that I was unhappy. My parents came from a religious upbringing that told them people who were sad were only sad because they were not close to God. And, unfortunately, this was a sentiment I was reminded of time and time again. When I stopped praying my five daily prayers, it was as if God had come down and whispered into my parents’ ears. When my mother caught me lying around, she would tell me that I was only unhappy because I had forgotten my religion. “I can see you’re going through something,” my dad would say one afternoon. “It’s because you aren’t praying anymore. Read the Quran, read it in Arabic, I promise you will feel better.”

                It was because of this that I began to feel like my unhappiness was my fault. Now, instead of wondering why this had happened to me, I began to wonder what I had done to make this happen. How had I displeased God? He was everything to me. He was the one I relied on to make my life manageable. I waited for his guidance every time I had a problem, why was he angry with me? Now, instead of crying about my weight gain or my invisibility at school, I cried about my relationship with God. I truly believed I had to be one of the worst Muslims to be suffering what I was suffering. And when one of my old friends told everyone at school that I was depressed, prompting them to treat me as if I was infected with an incurable disease, I wondered what else would happen. How else would God punish me?

                I tried to form a relationship with the Quran again to please him. I tried to pick up my prayers, but they did me no favors. My relationship with Islam seemed broken to the point that it had no chance at being revived. The warmth I had once felt was no longer there. The love I had once held for it seemed to have disappeared and I didn’t know why. I still considered myself a Muslim. It was an identity that I couldn’t even being to question. But I knew then, that at least at that point in my life, I wouldn’t be a good Muslim. Instead, I turned to my adult years, once more pinning all of my hopes on it that everything would get better. I hoped that once I graduated from high school, my whole life would turn around on its own. I would be a good Muslim again. God would love me again. And I would be happy again. I hoped and I prayed and I cried for it to be true. And then I turned to the internet.


    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
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     Reply #149 - April 24, 2014, 12:37 AM

    the thing about the arts is... when you take art and music away
    from the people, you take away a part of their soul.  You have
    more control over them. 

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