What's wrong with the Quran?

Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #30 - May 04, 2015, 05:03 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 04, 2015, 04:12 PM
reading Quran in English is really weird

If only God had realised this might happen.

That 80% of his creation would have to rely on what others say the Quran means, since it becomes weird when translated.

Bit of an oversight. What a shame.

Never mind Allah, better luck with your next book.
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #31 - May 04, 2015, 05:20 PM

His next book wasn't much better to be honest.

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/bm.htm

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Tonyt
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #32 - May 04, 2015, 08:56 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 04, 2015, 04:12 PM
reading Quran in English is really weird sura 1 actually has a very nice rhythm in Arabic,

That is interesting that this specific surah, that is talking from the perspective of humans to God, would be noted as particularly rhythmic in Arabic.
It gives the impression that it may have been a popular Arabic religious chant that made the cut into the final Quran because it sounded good despite the fact that it so plainly contradicted the idea that the Quran was authored by God. Like if someone was making a compilation album of "Best Hip Hop of 2015" and included one R&B song because it was so popular even though it is not really a Hip Hop song.
- hatoush
- Agnostic
- Muslim
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #33 - May 05, 2015, 01:37 AM

I never claimed it was written by God, I personally think most of the Quran was uttered by Muhammed, so it is his words, and his words reflect his milieu and knowledge, I think he was sincere, I am not a psychologist, but somehow he thought those words are not coming from his conscious mind.
- justperusing
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #34 - May 05, 2015, 03:24 AM

I don't understand why some people seem to think its more likely that Muhammad was sincere. The hadith stories cited are simply not credible as they were written a ridiculous amount of time after the fact and derive from an oral tradition saturated with fabrication. The Quran is very concerned with making sure the prophet gets unlimited access to women, complete obedience, and a good portion of the booty.

While the Quran may not even reliably go back to the real "Muhammad," the hadiths that might suggest he was sincere certainly contain sparse historical information and followers of Muhammad might exaggerate stories to make it seem like their faith is well placed.

Going off the Quran alone, it seems clear to me that whomever we are dealing with is a total opportunist. Honestly, sometimes I think I ought to tip my hat to the guy. If you're dealing with mainly dense, gullible people, taking advantage of it and securing beautiful women, riches, and power seems a pretty deft, albeit dishonest, move.

All the Quran seeks to secure and attempts to promise is (as Hitchens put it) is "earthly, material, and gross."

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- hatoush
- Agnostic
- Muslim
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #35 - May 05, 2015, 04:43 AM

I can't find any logical explanation for this one Abasa 80: 1-3,

{He frowned and turned away because the blind man approached him. Yet for all you did know (O Muhammad) he might perhaps have grown in purity?}

it does not make any sense, why would the Conscious Muhammed write something to criticize himself , Unless he is some kind of schizophrenic.
- justperusing
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #36 - May 05, 2015, 04:53 AM

How do you even know that's a criticism towards Muhammad? Once again, the Quran can't keep its pronouns straight and its really unclear what the hell the verse is saying.

Alternately, there is a million reasons why verses criticizing the prophets actions would be consciously invented by him. If the prophet decides to change his mind on something, he might criticize how he was acting before and that God showed him the true way. Remember the Quran seems to be revealed in a piecemeal fashion so a situation like this is quite plausible. Also, doing so throws off the suspicion that everything "revealed" is just for the prophets benefit. Throw in some (very) mild self-criticisms as the author of the Quran does and some weak skeptics may be thrown off the scent.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- hatoush
- Agnostic
- Muslim
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #37 - May 05, 2015, 05:16 AM

my view is based on the assumption that the basic narrative of the Traditions is correct, I have to start from somewhere !! at least his Meccan ministry had no "earthy" advantages.
- justperusing
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #38 - May 05, 2015, 05:28 AM

You're making a lot of assumptions about how the Meccan ministry went down. People like deepak chopra and other charlatans are ridiculed and "persecuted" in our society. Yet they still manage to gain a foothold among the credulous masses and they tend to make a lot of money and other material benefit just by coming forth with metaphysical "insight." Just because an individual has to undergo derision and scorn from members of his society doesn't mean that he or she isn't still committed to conning people.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #39 - May 05, 2015, 11:01 AM

Quote from: hatoush on May 05, 2015, 04:43 AM
I can't find any logical explanation for this one Abasa 80: 1-3,

{He frowned and turned away because the blind man approached him. Yet for all you did know (O Muhammad) he might perhaps have grown in purity?}

it does not make any sense, why would the Conscious Muhammed write something to criticize himself , Unless he is some kind of schizophrenic.

lol... check out any narcissist & charismatic leaders and you will find false modesty aplenty - it's a one of the tools used to manipulate the naive.

So do you think the Qur'an contains no mistake or flaws?
- hatoush
- Agnostic
- Muslim
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #40 - May 05, 2015, 11:51 AM

" So do you think the Qur'an contains no mistake or flaws?"

Hassan, i said it is a human product, i would even say, it is not even internal consistent
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
What's wrong with the Quran?
Reply #41 - May 05, 2015, 01:23 PM

Quote from: hatoush on May 05, 2015, 04:43 AM
I can't find any logical explanation for this one Abasa 80: 1-3,

{He frowned and turned away because the blind man approached him. Yet for all you did know (O Muhammad) he might perhaps have grown in purity?}

it does not make any sense, why would the Conscious Muhammed write something to criticize himself , Unless he is some kind of schizophrenic.

Honestly, I think that one makes a lot of sense. If he regretted his decision to turn away from the blind man, then wanted to make his change of heart sound divinely inspired, I think it would only follow that he would put that rebuke into God’s words. The strange thing is that it speaks in the third person, but of course we all know the Qur’an is notoriously inconsistent with its pronouns.

One of the ones that does strike me as odd is 75:16-19. {Move not your tongue to hasten therewith. Indeed, upon us is its collection and its recital. So when we have recited it, follow its recital. Then, upon us is its clarification.}

As a Muslim, I always used to envision Jibreel pausing to reprimand the Prophet as he eagerly tried to recite along with the messages being dictated to him. Of course, this raises the question as to whose words the Qur’an really were: Allah’s or Jibreel’s?

As I read it now, though, I’m wondering if it might have nothing to do with how Muhammad was meant to handle the revelation. Perhaps it is a continuation of the scene being described on Judgment day, when the aforementioned person is making excuses for himself, as was mentioned in the previous verse. Perhaps the original idea was that God would tell him, “Don’t hasten your tongue to make excuses for yourself. We’ll gather everything you did and read it out to you. So follow along as we read your record. Then we will make it all clear to you.” I’m not sure, but that seems to make more sense in the context.
Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »