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 Topic: What's wrong with the Quran?

 (Read 10960 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • What's wrong with the Quran?
     OP - September 22, 2010, 08:37 AM
    A Muslim asked me this morning what I found so crap about the Quran when I read it.  I couldn't remember anything specific and couldn't find my Kindle to get my notes, so I opened QuranExplorer.com in the hope of finding something obvious (seeing as the crappiness is so abundant.)

    I realised something I hadn't spotted before.  Sura 1 is a great example...

    Quote from: TheQurap
    1: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    2: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
    3: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    4: Owner of the Day of Judgment,
    5: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
    6: Show us the straight path,
    7: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured. Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.


    Look in particular at 5 and 6.

    Quote from: Muhammad
    5: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
    6: Show us the straight path,


    If this were god talking to man why would it say "thee we worship"? Whoever authored this is logically grouping themself with the collection of things which worship god.  It should say

    5: We alone should you worship.
    6: Ask, and We shall show you the straight path.

    Anticipating the answer "This is Allah teaching us a prayer" the Sura should start with "Oh Muhammad teach them this prayer" or even just "Say:"


    These are not the words of god talking to a man but the words of a man talking to god.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #1 - September 22, 2010, 09:16 AM
    i dont get it ... why shouldnt he say "we"?
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #2 - September 22, 2010, 09:29 AM
    Quote from: tabun on September 22, 2010, 09:16 AM
    i dont get it ... why shouldnt he say "we"?


    Answer the following questions

    Q1: Who worships god?
    A1: Mankind

    Q2: So who is saying "Thee we worship"?
    Q2: Mankind

    Q3: Is Allah part of mankind?
    Q3: No

    Q4: Therefore who is authoring these words, Allah or a human?
    A4: A human
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #3 - September 22, 2010, 09:38 AM
    Well spotted and well put  Afro
    Hi
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #4 - September 22, 2010, 09:51 AM
    Rationalizer, Not sure I get you

    This is supposedly a prayer given to man to worship Allah. From what I undertand its man speaking to God. In simpler terms its saying:

    Praise be to Allah, the Merciful, blah, blah blah. You alone we worship and ask for help. Please show us the right path which you like, but don't show us the Jewish path which angers you or the path of Christians that have gone astray.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #5 - September 22, 2010, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 22, 2010, 09:51 AM
    Rationalizer, Not sure I get you


    I think we agree that these are words which are supposed to be man talking to Allah.  So why doesn't it start with "Muhammad, teach them this prayer"? 
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #6 - September 22, 2010, 10:09 AM
    i guess the verses came to him when he was amongst his followers ... so removing the need to say o mohammed say this and this ..
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #7 - September 22, 2010, 10:10 AM
    Quote from: tabun on September 22, 2010, 10:09 AM
    i guess the verses came to him when he was amongst his followers ... so removing the need to say o mohammed say this and this ..


    That's inconsistent.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #8 - September 22, 2010, 10:14 AM
    well i think u can say that , but as muslims say veiw it according to the situations inwhich it was revealed   Tongue
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #9 - September 22, 2010, 10:16 AM
    In the name of Allah the benevolent, the merciful, the inconsistent Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #10 - September 22, 2010, 12:34 PM
    lol, good job Rationalizer.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #11 - September 22, 2010, 02:29 PM
    if you want to use my notes instead (from the "I re-read the Quran thread") see attached

    * Notes on Quran.doc (95.5 KB - downloaded 137 times.)
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #12 - September 22, 2010, 02:30 PM
    I'm more concerned that I've misplaced my Kindle Smiley  They aren't lost though.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #13 - September 22, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Thanks for reminding me about my notes too - I just had a quick look at them and this one struck me again

    The Quranic challenge and so called proof of its divine origins – ie. bring another surah like it -

    Quote
    Quran 010.038 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

     

    Here is the same challange adjusted to 10 surahs now. 

    Quote
    Quran 011.013 Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

     

    Firstly, can any Muslims reading this, explain why an omnicient God changed his mind?
    Secondly why was it adjust from 1 to ten - is it possible to meet the challenge of one surah?  If so why do Muslims keep challenging us to make one like it?
    If so, does that negate the earlier verse?
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #14 - September 22, 2010, 04:01 PM
    Another one for any apologist who claimed the Lot story is not anti-homosexual, this is in a separate section of the Quran to the Lot story, and points out exactly what abomination they were performing..

    Quran 027.054 And Lot! when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination knowingly ?
    027.055 Must ye needs lust after men instead of women ? Nay, but ye are folk who act senselessly.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #15 - September 22, 2010, 04:02 PM
     Cheesy Haha, imagined that said in a pirate accent, so cool and hilarious!
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #16 - September 22, 2010, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 22, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Here is the same challange adjusted to 10 surahs now. 


    Yeah, it goes back down to 1 later.

    Quote from: IsLame on September 22, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Firstly, can any Muslims reading this, explain why an omnicient God changed his mind?



    It went a bit like this

    Man 1: I'm a great swimmer me, fancy a race?
    Man 2: Do you realised I am an olympic gold medalist in swimming?
    Man 1: Erm, but you have to wear army boots.
    Man 2: Nah, fuck it, I have been unable to swim properly since I had my legs amputated.
    Man 1: In that case I'll challenge you to a swimming race AND you don't have to wear army boots!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #17 - September 22, 2010, 04:17 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #18 - September 22, 2010, 04:19 PM
    By the way there is a whole fake quran some people created with much better grammar then quran. I have seen that version online couple of months ago. But it looks like muzzies complained and got that removed.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #19 - September 22, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Just one more

    Does the reverse mean its a sin for a woman to talk to other men?  

    Quote
    Quran 033.055 It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves.

     

    I wish Muslim women would educate themselves about their perfect dean, before they start preaching it to the next generation.
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #20 - September 22, 2010, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 22, 2010, 09:58 AM
    I think we agree that these are words which are supposed to be man talking to Allah.  So why doesn't it start with "Muhammad, teach them this prayer"? 


    Actually, I have read somewhere that this sura in particular was the focus of dispute between Zait Ibn Thabit (appointed by Othman, the 3rd Calif) and Ibn Massod, who claimed that the Alfatiha was a Duah and not a Quranic verses. Hence the dua style it is characterized by. Have to find out the source and post it soon.
    ...
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #21 - September 22, 2010, 05:04 PM
    OK I found one source here:

    Quote from: http://www.sunnipath.com/library/books/B0040P0008.aspx
    The Mushaf of Ibn Mas'ud (d. 33/653)

    He wrote a mushaf, in which sudras 1, 113 and 114 were not included. Ibn al-Nadim [Fihrist, I, pp. 57-8.] however said he had seen a copy of the Qur'an from Ibn Mas'ud which did not contain al-fatiha (Sura 1). The arrangement of the suras differed from the 'Uthmanic text. The following is the order attributed to Ibn Mas'ud's copy: [Fihrist, I, pp. 53-7.]

    2, 4, 3, 7, 6, 5, 10, 9, 16, 11, 12, 17, 21, 23, 26, 37, 33, 28, 24, 8, 19, 29, 30, 36, 25, 22, 13, 34, 35, 14, 38, 47, 31, 35, 40, 43, 41, 46, 45, 44, 48, 57, 59, 32, 50, 65, 49, 67, 64, 63, 62, 61, 72, 71, 58, 60, 66, 55, 53, 51, 52, 54, 69, 56, 68, 79, 70, 73, 74, 83, 80, 76, 75, 77, 78, 81, 82, 88, 87, 92, 89, 85, 84, 96, 90, 93, 94, 86, 100, 107, 101, 98, 91, 95, 104, 105, 106, 102, 97, 110, 108, 109, 111, 112.

    ...
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #22 - September 22, 2010, 06:56 PM
    113 and 114 both start with "Say", which makes perfect sense Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #23 - October 21, 2010, 08:18 AM
    Don't Believe in Islam- Need Proof?! Well then, GO KILL YOURSELF!

    Qur'an 22.15 IF ANY THINKS that Allah will NOT help him (His Messenger) in this world and the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut himself off: then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages him!
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #24 - October 21, 2010, 08:37 AM
    You know I used to blame the translators for the Quran's clumsy verse but honestly I'm beginning to think Muhammad just wasn't that good of a poet. Especially when put on the spot. This verse is atrocious:


    Qur'an 22.15 IF ANY THINKS that Allah will NOT help him (His Messenger) in this world and the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut himself off: then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages him!

    There is no point in blaming the translators, a multitude of translators have not been able to absolve the Quran of its prosodic mediocrity. Beside the point, where does wisdom lie if not in content? The Most Merciful, The Most Elegant, The Most Sublime acting in the above-mentioned verse is just not suitable. Imagine a politician in today’s world behaving in this manner; he/she would be ridiculed till no end. “If you don’t vote for me or don’t believe in my campaign then go and hang yourselves and see if that will make a dent on the world!”

    And it is not a poor argument because all works of literature can be criticized and scrutinized under a set of rules and compared to similar works.
  • Re: What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #25 - October 21, 2010, 09:01 AM
    very smart observation.
  • What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #26 - May 03, 2015, 05:34 AM
    Bump. Thoughts?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #27 - May 03, 2015, 06:50 PM
    The reason al-fati7a sounds like a prayer being said be a priest to his congregation, is because it is. Most of the shorter "Meccan" suras actually appear to be Christian prayers and homilies meant for use in communal worship.
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #28 - May 04, 2015, 04:12 PM
    reading Quran in English is really weird Smiley  sura 1 actually has a very nice rhythm in Arabic,
  • What's wrong with the Quran?
     Reply #29 - May 04, 2015, 04:28 PM
    When you read a translation, much of the poetry and subtly is lost and the message is laid bare.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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