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 Topic: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?

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  • Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     OP - August 12, 2010, 01:13 AM
    Can there be such a thing as a reformed, moderate Islam in the sense of a creed whose followers and believers will: coexist peacefully and on equal terms with non-Muslims, without forcing their beliefs or rule on anybody; refrain from reacting violently to perceived criticisms or insults of their Prophet or Holy Book; accept that individual Muslims should be free to openly leave their Faith if they so desire; accept that religion is primarily a private matter that should not regulate all of society according to unequal and totalitarian sharia law?....Full Article
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #1 - August 12, 2010, 03:06 AM
    Was "reformed" christianity a viable prospect 500 years ago? Yes, it was and Islam is too. Islam is however, particularly resistant to secularization as the political aspirations are more evident than in other abrahamic faiths. Here's a few reasons why:

    1) Christianity paraded around as the law of the land but under the guise of aristocratic monarchy, wheres Islam is very blunt about the laws of land being for everyone, by the Shari'ah, of Islam and only Islam.

    2) Then you have the attitudes towards the re-interpretation of the Qur'an, as the attitude that the Qur'an is for everyone of all times which certainly isn't neccesarily true - as surat Muhammad was for the big man himself and Surat At-Taubah is arguably in the context of war, which discredits the Qur'ans status as a book for everyone of all times and actually may allow an Islamic justification for reintepretation of the holy book!

    3) There's also the idea that the Qur'an is perfect and without contradiction which is demonstrably bullshit as Surat At-Taariq, Ayah 7 says that the gushing fluid(semen) comes from somewhere between the backbone and the ribs! This can imply the seminal vesicles which are nowhere near this area at all, and actually if Allah is all-knowledgeable he must have known that the semen does not fertilise the eggs, but sperm do and they're produced in the testes!

    4) Another one is the so-called challenge to write a book like it, which is such a vague request that it's impossible to actually satisfy. What are the standards for being a book 'like the Qur'an'? What language must it be in? And even if this request can't be satisfied, what does that prove? That nobody has the same writing style as the writers of the Qur'an or it HAD to come from only God? What sounds more reasonable? This idea is so flawed that I cannot understand why muslims even make this argument.

    5) Oh yeah, they also think the Qur'an has science(thanks maurice bucaille you money-grubbing piece of shit) in it which only a man 1400 years ago could know but none of those who wrote the Tafsir nor the intellectuals in the Islamic Golden Age actually picked up upon until the Kaafiruun discovered for themselves. Not much more to be said here that hasn't been said before.

    6) The fact that many muslims have been fed the idea that the west are out to destroy Islam and that the Muslim Ummah are suffering, and this is down to the fact that the Khalifaat was abolished. Some groups like Hizb-ut-Tahrir go to such lengths that they actually state that the secularization of Islam is a negative thing and is the key to Islam's downfall. They say that muslims need centralized leadership to spread Sharii'ah across the world and to have RIGHTEOUS RULE of the world. These people feed muslims this dogmatic bullshit and pseudo-documentaries such as 'the arrivals' propagate this with conspiracy theory too.

    7) The last one I can think of is that they have the presupposition that western government is entirely comprised of Christians and Jews, and this false trichotomy of the Abrahamic faiths that they see as the main driving forces between governmental actions feeds this idea of regression back to theocracy, rather than secularization and reform. The notion of holy war against the ahlul-kitaab(people of the book i.e. Christians and Jews) leads them away from the idea that religion and state is seperate in the West because institutionalized religion is incompatible with modern society.

    When attitudes, notions and ideas like these still exist even in the minds of more liberal muslims, the reform of Islam does not seem to be something we'll see in our lifetimes. But I am adamant that it still remains a completely viable prospect.
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #2 - August 12, 2010, 05:15 AM
    Those are great thoughts serrated_colon (#6 is quite troublesome but probably one of the leading causes of islam's hesitancy atm in reformation) But I thought we'd agreed DH was a useless troll and we should stop feeding it? please refer to http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=11771.0
    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #3 - August 12, 2010, 12:32 PM
    People seem to confuse the reformation with the enlightenment.

    2 very different things.

    The reformation was against church corruption, an attempt to go back to the literal bible and 'true christianity'(tm), not make christianity more progressive.
    In fact it created more fundamentalist religion, calvanism, puritians, ect.

    It was the enlightenment (which was not a christian movement) that subdued christians.

    Within islam there already is a reformation, they are called salafists. What is needed is an enlightenment in muslim societies.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #4 - August 12, 2010, 01:26 PM
    I don't mean to feed any trolling but I thought the posts here were interesting.
    Skim read through the article. Fair amount of sensationalism as would be expected from jihadwatch..com

    I think it is possible for Islam to become more progressive, however the ideas I have would be different for Western Muslims to Muslims in Islamic nations, however.

    For Western Muslims:
    - Muslims need to integrate with the West so that it keeps them busy from serious mind indoctrinating religious activities. This will require cultural change that praying 5 times a day or reciting every prayer (for doing pretty much anything) is not mandatory for example.
    - Muslims need to start rejecting negative memes and instead accepting those of Western values (e.g. secularism, equality, freedom of thought, freedom to question), but at the same time keeping their faith. This will be partly because they'll be too busy to know what's really in the Quran & Hadiths, partly due to culture change, and partly due to cognitive dissonance. I’ve noticed this in certain members of my family, it can and does occur.
    - False-grievances need to be reduced. There needs to be a meme that the Western 'developed' Muslim is different to other Muslims. I know this is divisive but I can’t really think of a better way to break the false-grievances.
    - Muslims need to somehow adapt to think that Western practices of law and finance is better, rather than the ideological Sharia law or Sharia finance.
    - Western Muslims need to learn the value of respecting other people's offensive opinions. If they don't think more than a few seconds about someone drawing Mohammed or Allah and not take any offense and just think, "Whatever, people can say what they like about my prophet, it doesn’t hurt me", then we can make progress of them not feeling hurt and alienated.
    - Finally, though controversial, I think certain laws may need to be put in place to enforce certain restrictions (e.g. banning Sharia Law courts, banning of foreign funded Madrassas, denying visas to known hate preachers, etc).

    This is essentially about keeping the nice things in Islam (the feasts, wedding, get-togethers, spiritual/prayer time) and pruning all the negative ones.

    As for Islamic countries:
    -   The people need to gain more power and fight hard to earn freedoms that it took the Western world many years to achieve.
    -   Western foreign policy needs to be aimed to increase investments in progressive areas of business and politics.

    I think also there is an outside chance that with the advent of technology, Islamic cultures in the Middle East may change.

    Anyhow, these are just ideas up for discussion.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #5 - August 12, 2010, 01:32 PM
    The process of "reforming" Islam essentially means that you're gradually NOT following more and more aspects of Islam.
    .
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #6 - August 12, 2010, 03:36 PM
    It should be noted that the 'islamic world' has had enlightenment periods, and enlightened thinkers. Look at those like Razi or al-Rawandi
    The biggest difference in comparison with Europe and North America vs the middle east and North Africa, is that it didnt stick (this is not to say things could not go in reverse in the west or it couldnt stick there). Maybe they were to early, or maybe it was the separations of time or geography or that they didnt have the advantages that the enlightened thinkers in the west had in the 18th and 19th century.
    But I dont think it a coincidence that 'islams golden age' coincides with the existence of many of these people.

    The later 18th century period in the west had a 'perfect storm' of events and people at the right time to effect that enlightenment.
    From Diderot to Voltaire to Paine, and so forth. Revolutions in America and France, which where lead by people who were of that philosophy. This had a profound effect on western civilization and religion.


    I'm sure there is more to it, but I think it is significant.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #7 - August 13, 2010, 01:50 AM
    Quote from: HighOctane on August 12, 2010, 01:26 PM
    I don't mean to feed any trolling


    You should report any trolling to the moderators. Who is trolling here?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #8 - August 13, 2010, 01:55 AM
    Quote from: Homer
    It should be noted that the 'islamic world' has had enlightenment periods, and enlightened thinkers. Look at those like Razi or al-Rawandi  The biggest difference in comparison with Europe and North America vs the middle east and North Africa, is that it didnt stick


    Even in Islam's supposedly "enlightened" periods - eg the Cordoba emirate/caliphate - the "Islamic world" (with its remaining non-Muslims) was firmly under the heel of sharia.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #9 - August 13, 2010, 01:58 AM
    Quote from: Ephemeral
    Those are great thoughts serrated_colon (#6 is quite troublesome but probably one of the leading causes of islam's hesitancy atm in reformation) But I thought we'd agreed DH was a useless troll and we should stop feeding it? please refer to http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=11771.0


    YOU may have agreed that but you clearly represent only a highly vocal minority at this forum who resort to such accusations for want of any substantial counter arguments.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #10 - August 13, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: Homer on August 12, 2010, 03:36 PM
    It should be noted that the 'islamic world' has had enlightenment periods, and enlightened thinkers. Look at those like Razi or al-Rawandi
    The biggest difference in comparison with Europe and North America vs the middle east and North Africa, is that it didnt stick (this is not to say things could not go in reverse in the west or it couldnt stick there). Maybe they were to early, or maybe it was the separations of time or geography or that they didnt have the advantages that the enlightened thinkers in the west had in the 18th and 19th century.
    But I dont think it a coincidence that 'islams golden age' coincides with the existence of many of these people.

    The later 18th century period in the west had a 'perfect storm' of events and people at the right time to effect that enlightenment.
    From Diderot to Voltaire to Paine, and so forth. Revolutions in America and France, which where lead by people who were of that philosophy. This had a profound effect on western civilization and religion.


    I'm sure there is more to it, but I think it is significant.


    Interesting, thanks.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #11 - August 13, 2010, 08:34 PM
    There have been some good points made in this thread.  Afro

    I agree with serrated_colon that Islam can be enlightened; and as Homer pointed out, this was achieved to a some extent during Islam's golden age.  I also agree that it is very difficult thing to achieve, unfortunately. no

    I am all for the multi-pronged approach when tackling the problem of Islam.

    To be simplistic, I would say that currently the following groups exist:

    • Radical Islamists: This group should be banned outright.
    • Traditionalist Muslims who just want to preserve the Islamic lifestyle: This group should be hindered in various ways, e.g. coercing them to integrate into mainstream society. Possibly banning Muslim schools, or at least imposing heavy restrictions and rules on them.  Putting pressure on preachers for preaching anything unacceptable, e.g. intolerance, anti-integration, or hatred of jews etc.  Denying Mosques tax breaks etc. Watching their literature closely.
    • Non-practising Muslims to whom religion is a merely a cultural identity badge: This group should be taught to consciously accept secular, liberal values.
    • Secular Muslim groups such as BMSD and Quilliam Foundation: This group should be supported.  They provide a sense of belonging to many Muslims who do not like orthodox Islam (but do not want to apostatise, either out of genuine belief in God or out of fear of social suicide).
    • Apostates like us: This group should be supported (the most). dance They provide a sense of belonging to those who want to leave Islam due to a lack of belief.


    While I'm at it, here are my favourite tactics in the battle against (extremist) Islam:

    • Ridicule Islam mercilessly:  There should be plenty of absurd dogma and practices in Islam to do this.
    • The law: Anything unacceptable should be swiftly handled by the law.  There is no need to even invoke religion when describing the crime.  Terrorism and honour killings etc, are crimes. PERIOD.
    • Media and political pressure on Muslims: in the style of Newnight's Jeremy Paxman. Tongue  Expose their intolerance/extremism and demand answers from them.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #12 - August 14, 2010, 12:52 PM
    Quote from: DH on August 13, 2010, 01:55 AM
    Even in Islam's supposedly "enlightened" periods - eg the Cordoba emirate/caliphate - the "Islamic world" (with its remaining non-Muslims) was firmly under the heel of sharia.


    Yes, I was being historically relativistic.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #13 - August 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
    Very well put ateapotist !  Afro Afro The break-down into different categories is very important (slightly embarrassed I didn't make that explicit).
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #14 - August 14, 2010, 01:49 PM
    Well, I think that we could have a form of moderate Islam but not secular. A secular Islam would mean a defeated Islam and the Muslims (the practicing Muslims) would see it as a victory for the West witch is not acceptable. How could it be to accept to be defeated from such a civilisation. If you look, the Western civilisation is going down and China is raising up like other countries , turkey, Malaysia... . The demography here is going down and for each new generation there is lost of millions o people. What do they receive in change from the West witch can equal Islam?. The Muslims tried nationalism, communism and so on without success; they need to go back to the basics. Only Islam gives glory to the Muslims and this will not change while rejecting it. I believe in a moderate Islam and that Islam is moderate. But
    Changes in Islam can only come from the Muslims themselves and in first lace from the scholars. The more there will be pressure from outside, the more there will be a resistance and we see it with the extremists actually.
    The Prophet himself warned us against the extremists.
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #15 - August 14, 2010, 02:14 PM
    Islam can be reformed.
    Turkey for example is a "secular" country, but there is a government funded and to a certain degree ran, religious authority named diyanet isleri baskanligi.

    The correct way forward is to build authority, direct religion, argue that your brand is the best.
    While there is still the issue of quran's actual text, it's not that important. Transferred culture is the most important bit.
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #16 - August 16, 2010, 01:24 AM
    Quote from: burdenofbeing
    Islam can be reformed.
    Turkey for example is a "secular" country, but there is a government funded and to a certain degree ran, religious authority named diyanet isleri baskanligi.


    You read what the article said about Turkey BoB?


    One possible solution could be to restrain or cage Islam within a framework of rigidly enforced secularism. This kind of muscular secularism has been attempted under Mustafa Kemal Atatürk ("Father of Turks," 1881-1938), military officer and autocratic founder of the Republic of Turkey, serving as its first president after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following the First World War. An admirer of the European Enlightenment, he sought to modernize his country by turning it into a secular nation-state and reducing the influence of Islam in Turkish political life as much as practically possible through a far-reaching program of political, economic and cultural reforms whose principles are commonly referred to as Kemalism. In 1924 he abolished the institution of the Caliphate. Although it had existed in name only for over a thousand years and was devoid of real power, it nevertheless served as a formal link with the first Caliphs after Muhammad's death and a symbol of (largely imaginary) Islamic unity. For this reason, millions of Muslims would like to recreate the Caliphate and restore it as a symbol of and vehicle for achieving Islamic global supremacy.

    These reforms were partly successful, but they came at a price. Since Muslims are accustomed to venerating a particular person, Atatürk created something of a cult surrounding his person that could have been considered "Fascist" in other times and places. Visitors to Turkey have described what might be called the competing personality cults of two individuals: Atatürk and Muhammad. In the end, it appears as if Muhammad won this contest.

    Secular or not, Turkey has never been a beacon of tolerance. The rather few non-Muslims who have remained in the country face harassment, sometimes of a brutal nature. Serious riots broke out in Istanbul on September 6, 1955 which led to looting in Christian neighborhoods and the destruction of many of the city's churches and Jewish synagogues. More than 5,000 shops belonging to the Greek minority were looted by an emotional crowd of thousands of Turkish Muslim militants who carried out several "circumcisions" on the spot with knives.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #17 - August 16, 2010, 01:32 AM
    Quote from: Homer on August 14, 2010, 12:52 PM
    Yes, I was being historically relativistic.



    Even "relativistically" speaking the "enlightenment periods" of Islam could be compared to present day Egypt. A "reformed" Islam that is worthy of the name must be one where sharia is permanently abandoned ON PRINCIPLE rather than because it is being partially suppressed by some quasi-secular "strong man" like Mubarak or Saddam Hussein and  where enraged Muslims no longer go on murderous rampages when they feel their religion has been "insulted".
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #18 - August 16, 2010, 05:32 AM
    I hadn't read it, I actually live in Turkey.
    While the majority of the people who live here are muslims, they are now against a sharia government, and imams who pursue that issue can never generate a following.

    Muslims go to a single very moderate organization, under the government's payroll, to resolve their islamic questions.

    This is a good path towards reformation, and what's needed is discreet support from non-muslims.
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #19 - August 16, 2010, 05:55 AM
    Quote from: Julien on August 14, 2010, 01:49 PM
    If you look, the Western civilisation is going down and China is raising up like other countries , turkey, Malaysia...

    Turkey and Malaysia?
    Lol.

    More like, India and Brazil.

    But it would kinda go against your claims that "the west is falling" since Brazil is an obvious western country.

    (I notice that, in general, Muslims on the internets seem to ignore the existence of South America ^_^)
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #20 - August 16, 2010, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: burdenofbeing on August 16, 2010, 05:32 AM
    While the majority of the people who live here are muslims, they are now against a sharia government,


    So you expect Erdogan and his party to be voted out at your next elections? When is that BTW?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #21 - August 16, 2010, 09:48 AM
    Quote from: Julien
    The Prophet himself warned us against the extremists.


    I take it you categorize yourself as a Muslim Julien. So where did the prophet warn you against "the extremists" and - if you can provide this corroboration - what did he mean by "extremist"? Did he mean, for instance, someone who strongly advocated stoning adulterers to death?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #22 - August 16, 2010, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: DH on August 16, 2010, 09:42 AM
    So you expect Erdogan and his party to be voted out at your next elections? When is that BTW?

    why would I expect that? He's not running or promising to run a sharia government.
    the elections will be on 2012
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #23 - August 16, 2010, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on August 13, 2010, 08:34 PM
    There have been some good points made in this thread.  Afro

    I agree with serrated_colon that Islam can be enlightened; and as Homer pointed out, this was achieved to a some extent during Islam's golden age.  I also agree that it is very difficult thing to achieve, unfortunately. no

    I am all for the multi-pronged approach when tackling the problem of Islam.

    To be simplistic, I would say that currently the following groups exist:

    • Radical Islamists: This group should be banned outright.
    • Traditionalist Muslims who just want to preserve the Islamic lifestyle: This group should be hindered in various ways, e.g. coercing them to integrate into mainstream society. Possibly banning Muslim schools, or at least imposing heavy restrictions and rules on them.  Putting pressure on preachers for preaching anything unacceptable, e.g. intolerance, anti-integration, or hatred of jews etc.  Denying Mosques tax breaks etc. Watching their literature closely.
    • Non-practising Muslims to whom religion is a merely a cultural identity badge: This group should be taught to consciously accept secular, liberal values.
    • Secular Muslim groups such as BMSD and Quilliam Foundation: This group should be supported.  They provide a sense of belonging to many Muslims who do not like orthodox Islam (but do not want to apostatise, either out of genuine belief in God or out of fear of social suicide).
    • Apostates like us: This group should be supported (the most). dance They provide a sense of belonging to those who want to leave Islam due to a lack of belief.


    While I'm at it, here are my favourite tactics in the battle against (extremist) Islam:

    • Ridicule Islam mercilessly:  There should be plenty of absurd dogma and practices in Islam to do this.
    • The law: Anything unacceptable should be swiftly handled by the law.  There is no need to even invoke religion when describing the crime.  Terrorism and honour killings etc, are crimes. PERIOD.
    • Media and political pressure on Muslims: in the style of Newnight's Jeremy Paxman. Tongue  Expose their intolerance/extremism and demand answers from them.


    Brilliant list Ateapotist Afro

    When it comes to Radicals, there is almost nothing we can do to persuade them. They would never listen. But with Moderates and traditional Muslims it can work. This may not sound nice, but many Muslims are close-minded people. Muslims, and protestant Christians are some of the most close-minded and stubborn people out there. They can't accept new and different ideas and thats one of the biggest problems. If they can be more open minded, reformation can be likely.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #24 - August 17, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Quote from: burdenofbeing on August 16, 2010, 11:05 AM
    why would I expect that? He's not running or promising to run a sharia government.
    the elections will be on 2012


    So you don't think Erdogan would ideally like to impose sharia lock, stock and barrel on Turkey then?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #25 - August 17, 2010, 01:06 AM
    Quote from: ateapotist
    Non-practising Muslims to whom religion is a merely a cultural identity badge: This group should be taught to consciously accept secular, liberal values.

    Secular Muslim groups such as BMSD and Quilliam Foundation: This group should be supported.  They provide a sense of belonging to many Muslims who do not like orthodox Islam (but do not want to apostatise, either out of genuine belief in God or out of fear of social suicide).


    These groups, even if they are what they appear to be, unintentionally assist the "Islamists" by confusing the wider non-Muslim society about the nature of Islam. This problem may be further exacerbated by ex Muslims arguing that one person's claim to be a "Muslim" is as valid as another's regardless of whether their beliefs and conduct is compatible with the basic Islamic texts.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #26 - August 17, 2010, 07:17 AM
    Quote from: DH on August 17, 2010, 12:42 AM
    So you don't think Erdogan would ideally like to impose sharia lock, stock and barrel on Turkey then?


    Erdogan is very intelligent. He will not do the same mistakes than Erbakan. He know very well that if he try to do it, this will not work and not only it will brings a lot of troubles within turkey but on the international scene. Turkey is always getting closer to the Muslim world; I was recently in Turkey and discussed with some turks who don't want anymore to join Europe
    even they was in favor of it before. Same case for some turks living in Europe. Europe is not the future and his power is always more symbolic that something really concrete. They just gives money for what has been destroyed by the Americans or Israel like in Lebanon, Palestine. It's actually ruled by the zionists and the freemasons.

  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #27 - August 17, 2010, 07:49 AM
    Quote from: DH on August 17, 2010, 01:06 AM
    These groups, even if they are what they appear to be, unintentionally assist the "Islamists" by confusing the wider non-Muslim society about the nature of Islam. This problem may be further exacerbated by ex Muslims arguing that one person's claim to be a "Muslim" is as valid as another's regardless of whether their beliefs and conduct is compatible with the basic Islamic texts.

     lol so all ex Muslims should shut up and let those who never have been Muslims explain very clearly what a true Muslim is? 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #28 - August 17, 2010, 07:50 AM
    Quote from: DH on August 17, 2010, 01:06 AM
    These groups, even if they are what they appear to be, unintentionally assist the "Islamists" by confusing the wider non-Muslim society about the nature of Islam. This problem may be further exacerbated by ex Muslims arguing that one person's claim to be a "Muslim" is as valid as another's regardless of whether their beliefs and conduct is compatible with the basic Islamic texts.

    They are also helping to enlighten Islam.  Is that not a good thing?
    If you don't even like moderate Islam, then what do you propose?  Banning Islam completely?  What about Christianity?  It also has the potential of going extreme.  And Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc etc.  Turn this country into a North Korea.

    Anyway, what are you doing preaching to EX-MUSLIMS about the danger of Islam?  We are not Muslims any more.  015  Go to Muslim forums instead.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Is a "reformed" Islam a viable prospect?
     Reply #29 - August 17, 2010, 08:00 AM
    Go to islamicawakening.com they will love you over there.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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