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Theme Changer

 Topic: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2

 (Read 7162 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     OP - June 08, 2010, 10:24 PM

    I have just read this on a Danish Blog and I am deeply shocked.

    It is supposedly from the Sunni Shafi´i school

    Quote
    retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.” However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (‘Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).


    http://snaphanen.dk/

    Do many Sunni Muslims adhere to this school ?

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #1 - June 08, 2010, 10:58 PM

    ................

    Do many Sunni Muslims adhere to this school ?




    Green is teh largest and that is Hanafi School..  Sunni Shafi´i  Islam is someting like 25% Sunni Muslims follow that silly stuff

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #2 - June 08, 2010, 11:02 PM

    The Salafi sect of (sunni) Islam is crazy.  They justify all kinds of extremely immoral stuff and they hate Jews like hell.


    Quote
    Do many Sunni Muslims adhere to this school ?

    There are 2 or three (or more) schisms within the Salafi sect.  Al-Qaeda represent the most radical and immoral schism and http://www.salafimanhaj.com/ represent a less radical schism, although you will still find some pretty bigoted stuff there.  I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of Arabs follow the Salafi sect, although only a small proportion follow the radical schism.   Saudi Arabia has really funded the spread of the Salafis in the last many decades.
    Most sunni Indians/Pakistanis/Afghanis follow the Deobandi sect of Islam.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #3 - June 08, 2010, 11:04 PM

    The Shaafi'i madhhab is the one that pretty much spawned the others. I imagine that particular school has a lot of influence even within other schools, hence why Shaafi'i is always cited in matters pertaining to Islamic jurisprudence.
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #4 - June 08, 2010, 11:10 PM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Green is teh largest and that is Hanafi School..  Sunni Shafi´i  Islam is someting like 25% Sunni Muslims follow that silly stuff


    YZE that map is wrong because the rest of the world is in grey. Don't you know the East and West belong to Allah?
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #5 - June 09, 2010, 12:22 AM

    The Salafi sect of (sunni) Islam is crazy.  They justify all kinds of extremely immoral stuff and they hate Jews like hell.

    There are 2 or three (or more) schisms within the Salafi sect.  Al-Qaeda represent the most radical and immoral schism and http://www.salafimanhaj.com/ represent a less radical schism, although you will still find some pretty bigoted stuff there.  I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of Arabs follow the Salafi sect, although only a small proportion follow the radical schism.   Saudi Arabia has really funded the spread of the Salafis in the last many decades.
    Most sunni Indians/Pakistanis/Afghanis follow the Deobandi sect of Islam.



    The shafi madhab has nothing to do with salafism. Salafism is something in and of itself within sunnism (although some traditionalists will say that they are out of sunnism).  Salafism is about a century old; the madhahib have been around for about 1200 yrs.  And the Deobandi school is sub-branch of the hanafi madhab.  There are four sunni madhabs that still survive: hanafi, hanbali, shafi and maliki.  The hanbali one is the most "strict" (although each of them have their *very very special* and utterly ridiculous and difficult to follow rules). 

    Most Arabs don't follow any madhab - not consciously. Certainly not salafi.  They "follow" what their country or region has traditionally followed for centuries.  Salafis are - thankfully - a minority, even though they do have a lot of influence on how people perceive social issues and Islam being the "solution" to those ills.  Their influence is spreading through politics and satellite TV, but you're not going to see people rushing to have two fist fulls of beard or enacting all the small OCD rituals in their live that the salafis do. 

    Umdat as Salik is one book for the shafi that was written 200 yrs ago as an abridged fiqh guide for "everyday people." It was the abridged, everyday Joe version of imam Nawawi's 9 volume master work on the fiqh of the shafi madhab.  Today it is considered a book for the level of the scholars and you are *supposedly* not supposed to consult it or quote its rulings to others unless you have formally studied it with a scholar so that you don't repeat the wrong information (b/c so many of the entries are only one or two sentences and of course b/c allah will punish you GRIEVOUSLY for making mistakes in talking about Islam...) (so, yes, Muslims have been dumbing themselves down). 

    Anyway, Umdat as Salik has almost no commentary in it.  It's not the full rulings and it doesn't present the reasonings or the arguments or even, in many cases within the text, whether or not the ruling is a minority or majority one.  I wouldn't necessarily take it as the end all be all of shafi rulings, bc there are many areas that one needs to clarify the accuracy of the statement prior to making fun of it and exposing it (which I think the book does need to be exposed and made fun of).  For example, is the retaliation being spoken of here the death penalty?  Well, I can't read Danish and while I do have copies of the original text and have studied it I didn't study this particular book within it and I don't have the books at the house to go and read myself.  However, if I recall correctly the retaliation here means that the killer should be killed, and it is saying that the exception is the parent.  Whose ruling is this? The quote does not tell us (Umdat is a collection of commentaries, esp the translated version which is a mish mosh).  Does the book say anywhere that in this case, the parent should not be subjected to imprisonment or anything like that? Does it tell us if it is a minority, deviant, or majority ruling?  If not, then don't take it as "This is what Islam SAYS!!!" 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #6 - June 09, 2010, 12:43 AM

    Thanks for the detailed info Manat. Afro
    My info was only a guess about Salafism.  I agree that the Shafi'i madhab has nothing to do with Salafism.  Perhaps talking about Salafism was irrelevant in this context. lipsrsealed

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #7 - June 09, 2010, 07:37 AM


    Hi Manat

    Thank you for the thorough clarification.

    The Umdat as-Salik says, that parents and grandparents are not subject to retaliation, does it matter then what the retaliation would have been if they were subject to retaliation ?

    Doesn´t not subject to retaliation mean, that nothing is to be done to them, that in fact they can kill their children/grandchildren with impunity ?

    The Blog article isn´t specifically about the above quote, but mentions it in connection with the subject of the article. The only thing further it says about it is, that it has been approved by the leading Sunni authority, Al Azhar, as an authoritative introduction to this school´s guidance in interpretation of the Sharia and also that reality shows that it is being maintained eo ipso Jordan recently rejected a law proposal regarding honour killing because as per Islamists and conservatives the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2
     Reply #8 - June 09, 2010, 07:44 AM

    That map is wrong. Most Kuwaitis, I believe, are Shafi'i. The Hanafis in Kuwait tend to be the South Asians. Although there's probably more of them than Kuwaitis.
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