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 Topic: Hello!

 (Read 5925 times)
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  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #60 - May 19, 2010, 10:58 PM

    In that case, Sheikh Debunker, what does your signature mean to you?


    it means that one of those old idiots knew that they shouldn't have just filled up their books with conjectures and passed them as part of the religion.

    I'm not really calling myself a Sheikh, if that's what you're asking... on second thoughts, yes! I am my own Sheikh.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #61 - May 20, 2010, 05:53 AM

    No he didnt, he said things that he shouldnt have said after he lost his rag


    lol silly iblis, he was riding himself
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #62 - May 20, 2010, 06:45 AM

    welcome

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #63 - May 20, 2010, 12:50 PM

    welcome


    Thanks Kod!

    May I ask who exactly? Just out of curiosity. Were they 'famous' (by muslim standards)?


    I think this idea of scholars "famous by Muslim standards" is a moot point. Can you name any, Hassan1?

    You seem to have this idea that there is a consensus about trustworthy scholars in the Muslim world today. Futher, most Muslim scholars know nothing outside of Islam. Watch Islam Channel. These guys are completely out of touch with the world, living in their own little bubbles. Who are these people to tell me anything about my life?

    As I suppose this is my introduction thread, I'll list my problems with Islam and maybe you can also ask a scholar "famous by Muslim standards" as you have the good fortune of knowing Hassan1 unlike the rest of us.

    Marriage to Ayesha
    Marriage to Safiya
    Rape of female captives
    Banu Qurayza massacre (and general murder of non-Muslim non-combatants)
    Attitude towards woman (beating, stoning, no mention of rape punishment, more women in Hellfire, deficient in faith, testimony less than man, inheritance half of man)
    Shariah punishments (apostacy, homosexuality, fornication, stealing)
    Attitude towards homosexuality

    Non-Muslim second-class citizens under Islamic State
    Scientific errors in the Qur'an
    Eternal damnation vs. Most Merciful God
    "Religion for all times and places" only completely understood by few, mostly Arabic-speaking people
    Miracle of the Qur'an ("Produce an ayah like it") is not a miracle


    The bold ones are the ones that, unless all of them are clarified, I will never return to Islam.







    My mind is my own church.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #64 - May 20, 2010, 05:12 PM

    it means that one of those old idiots knew that they shouldn't have just filled up their books with conjectures and passed them as part of the religion.

    I'm not really calling myself a Sheikh, if that's what you're asking... on second thoughts, yes! I am my own Sheikh.

    You do realise Razi also said this  Huh?

    Quote
    Most prominent among those scholars was Abu Bakr al-Razi (865-925 CE) who believed in the supreme importance of reason. He argued that the mind had an innate capacity to distinguish between good and evil, and between what was useful and what was harmful. According to him, the mind did not need any guidance from outside it, and for this reason the presence of prophets was redundant and superfluous.

    Al-Razi directed his most vehement attack against the holy books in general, including the Qur'an, because he saw them as illogical and self-contradictory. He also believed that all human beings were equal in their intellectual capacities as they were in all other things. It made no sense therefore that God should single out one individual from among them in order to reveal to him his divine wisdom and assign him the task of guiding other human beings. Furthermore, he found that prophets' pronouncements and stories often contradicted those of other prophets. If their source was divine revelation as is claimed, their views would have been identical. The idea of a divinely-appointed mediator was therefore a myth.

    Al-Razi understood the hold of religious belief on society, which he attributed to several factors. Firstly, systems of beliefs spread mainly through the human propensity for imitating and copying others. Secondly, religion's popularity rested on the close alliance between clerics and political rulers. The clerics often used this alliance to impose their own personal beliefs on people by force whenever the power of persuasion failed. Thirdly, the lavish and imposing character of the attire of religious men contributed to the high regard in which they were held by common people. Lastly, with the passage of time religious ideas became so familiar that they turned almost into deep-seated instincts that were no longer questioned.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/10/islam-freedom-expression




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  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #65 - May 21, 2010, 08:14 PM

    Al Razi was a genius.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #66 - May 22, 2010, 07:32 AM

    Hi Eliphaz! I see no one has offered you your customary introductory parrot, so here you go:  parrot

    Also, I love that you brought up rape. Whenever I doubt my doubt, I just think that God didn't find it important enough to mention that rape is an abhorrent crime and provide a punishment for it, while pre marital sex is so horrible that one must be flogged 80 (or 100?) times for it.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #67 - May 22, 2010, 06:59 PM

    Thanks Kod!

    I think this idea of scholars "famous by Muslim standards" is a moot point. Can you name any, Hassan1?

    You seem to have this idea that there is a consensus about trustworthy scholars in the Muslim world today. Futher, most Muslim scholars know nothing outside of Islam. Watch Islam Channel. These guys are completely out of touch with the world, living in their own little bubbles. Who are these people to tell me anything about my life?

    As I suppose this is my introduction thread, I'll list my problems with Islam and maybe you can also ask a scholar "famous by Muslim standards" as you have the good fortune of knowing Hassan1 unlike the rest of us.

    Marriage to Ayesha
    Marriage to Safiya
    Rape of female captives
    Banu Qurayza massacre (and general murder of non-Muslim non-combatants)
    Attitude towards woman (beating, stoning, no mention of rape punishment, more women in Hellfire, deficient in faith, testimony less than man, inheritance half of man)
    Shariah punishments (apostacy, homosexuality, fornication, stealing)
    Attitude towards homosexuality

    Non-Muslim second-class citizens under Islamic State
    Scientific errors in the Qur'an
    Eternal damnation vs. Most Merciful God
    "Religion for all times and places" only completely understood by few, mostly Arabic-speaking people
    Miracle of the Qur'an ("Produce an ayah like it") is not a miracle


    The bold ones are the ones that, unless all of them are clarified, I will never return to Islam.




    This is a pretty standard list of reservations. A few links + comments. I dont want to get drawn into an elongated debate on the matter because, quite frankly, I do not have the religious knowledge to be delve into a lot of these matters.

    Aisha:
    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544940

    and an alternative opinion.
    http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

    Banu Qurayzah:
    http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/misc/qurayza.html <-- Also includes some general thoughts on the validiy of Ibn Ishaq's seerah.

    Role of Women in Islam:
    Listen to Hamza Yusuf's men and women in Islam, here: http://www.ilookisee.co.uk/Hamza%20Yusuf%202.htm

    Shariah punishments:
    Apostasy: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Islam/2006/04/The-Legal-Tradition-Of-Islamic-Apostasy.aspx

    Religion for all times and all places: Despite being in Arabic, Islam has spread to all corners of the world. It is not neccesary to speak Arabic in order to understand its message, as is evidenced by the growing number of western converts as well as the renewed interest in Islam from non-arabic speaking Muslims.


    I know I have only responded to some of your conerns, but I do advise that you actually sit down with somebody who will be able to answer your questions in a manner befitting to their importance. You have to put in effort (not saying that you havent alread done so); a friend of mine was on the verge of apostating until he found a sheikh who provided thoughtful, clear and inspired advice.

    Continue to read and research. Ask questions on Muslim forums. Read through the articles on http://www.islamic-awareness.org/, make dua and ponder. Always ponder.

    Hassan


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #68 - May 22, 2010, 07:22 PM

    I looked at the Aisha link you posted.

    "After the passage of many centuries, we find now some Orientalists who try to strike a comparison between the conditions of our present time and what was existing 1400 years ago. They are trying to apply the criterions of the Western society to that society that existed in the Arabian Peninsula very long ago.

    It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16]. At all rates, it should be stressed that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, on marrying `Aisha, never aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire; rather, his aim was to strengthen his relation with the most beloved Companion of his."

    What utter nonsense. Is this crap supposed to be a work of a "scholar"? Nowadays girls reach sexual maturity earlier due to drastically  improved living conditions.

    Frankly this is so stupid its embarrassing.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #69 - May 22, 2010, 07:27 PM

    Laughable explanation.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #70 - May 22, 2010, 08:34 PM

    Hassan1 - please dont talk shit here, do that on Ummah.com if you want people to nod to such rubbish. 

    Here you need to use the old cranium that Allah supposedly gave you   Afro

    My Book     news002       
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    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #71 - May 22, 2010, 09:31 PM

    I notice you haven't addressed my problem with Hell, Hassan1

    Dear Fellow Ex-Muslim, Hell doesn't exist. It's an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #72 - May 22, 2010, 09:41 PM


    Hassan1 is on form tonight.

    Make dua and ponder, always ponder  Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #73 - May 22, 2010, 09:44 PM

    If pondering got you this far, please dont ponder.

    My Book     news002       
    My Videos  pccoffee
    Contact  tacklehug

    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #74 - May 22, 2010, 09:59 PM


    That's the answer for everything though, isn't it? Sophistry, bullshit, evasion, denial, and invocations to pray and 'ponder'. Thats the methodology. Textbook stuff this.

    And that's the 'moderate' way of dealing with scrutiny of religion.

    Absolute emptiness.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #75 - May 22, 2010, 10:06 PM

    Religion for all times and all places: Despite being in Arabic, Islam has spread to all corners of the world. It is not neccesary to speak Arabic in order to understand its message, as is evidenced by the growing number of western converts as well as the renewed interest in Islam from non-arabic speaking Muslims.

    @Hassan1: Here we go again. Why do Muslims love this argument so much? 015
    Logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


    Hassan1 - please dont talk shit here, do that on Ummah.com if you want people to nod to such rubbish.  

    Here you need to use the old cranium that Allah supposedly gave you   Afro

    @IsLame:
     Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #76 - May 23, 2010, 01:39 AM

    Isn't it an argumentum ad populum?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #77 - May 23, 2010, 04:39 AM

    You do realise Razi also said this  Huh?


    there are two different Al-Razi...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #78 - May 23, 2010, 11:19 AM

    Isn't it an argumentum ad populum?

    You're right Angel.Afro  My bad. Or let's say they are both correct. whistling2

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #79 - May 23, 2010, 06:48 PM

    there are two different Al-Razi...

    Whoops, sorry my mistake

    My Book     news002       
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    Contact  tacklehug

    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #80 - May 23, 2010, 08:24 PM

    Hi Eliphaz! I see no one has offered you your customary introductory parrot, so here you go:  parrot

    Also, I love that you brought up rape. Whenever I doubt my doubt, I just think that God didn't find it important enough to mention that rape is an abhorrent crime and provide a punishment for it, while pre marital sex is so horrible that one must be flogged 80 (or 100?) times for it.


    Thanks for the parrot Angel54! I will cherish it dearly!  far away hug

    I absolutely identify with your "doubt your doubt" statement, I also use the rape argument whenever I start getting all "what if I am wrong about all this". And it is so damn obvious that I am amazed so few Muslims (including myself) notice it. I really need to study more psychology to understand why we human beings can be so blinkered. I think Muhammad was a genius (or we are just really stupid) in how he managed to convince so many of us that such a flawed book is the pinnacle of perfection.

    My mind is my own church.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #81 - May 24, 2010, 04:04 PM

    I think Muhammad was a genius (or we are just really stupid) in how he managed to convince so many of us that such a flawed book is the pinnacle of perfection.

    I think a lot of it was about saying the right thing, at the right place, at the right time.

    My Book     news002       
    My Videos  pccoffee
    Contact  tacklehug

    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #82 - May 24, 2010, 06:39 PM

    Humans are prone to many cognitive biases.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
    Also, read about evolutionary psychology.  Search for Andy Thomson's video about 'Why We Believe in Gods'.
    When I was in my leaving stage in 2008, I really wanted to understand the psychology of it all.  I was staggered how so much of the world could be SO WRONG.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #83 - May 24, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Very interesting list there ateapotist, not come across it before, thanks!
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #84 - May 24, 2010, 07:37 PM

    The most famous cognitive bias is confirmation bias.  After the global economy fell off a cliff in 2008, they kept talking about how most people never saw it coming.  Economists were prone to noticing the patterns that would 'confirm' their pre-existing views.  Similarly Muslims only seem to notice the (so-called) miracles/patterns that confirm their pre-existing beliefs.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #85 - May 24, 2010, 07:52 PM

    In the book "The Ascent of Money" (which is an outstanding book if you want to learn about history of money and finance) it lists at the end of the book all the biases and human deficiencies in judgement that plagues the financial markets. Some of those in the wikipedia article appear there too.

    Anecdote: In 2007 greedy Lehmans removed Chief Risk Officer Madelyn Antoncic and head of its fixed-income group Michael Gelband because of their opposition to management’s growing accumulation of risky and illiquid investments. And we then know what happened to Lehmans ... and how many Ferraris went up for sale around that period! (well, in London)
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #86 - May 24, 2010, 08:00 PM

    I think a lot of it was about saying the right thing, at the right place, at the right time.


    i think its also a matter of sheer chance. there have been millions of charlatans who've led cults based on different formulae. its only natural that one of them hit the right design to spread the meme around far and wide. and he must've been lucky too. he could easily have taken a misstep and ended up killed by someone else. or someone else later on might've screwed his system up instead of so many who helped build the edifice. so islam's success is definitely an emergent thing, and i would be careful to not give muhammad too much credit.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #87 - May 24, 2010, 08:07 PM

    Arabia was crying out for a single unifying voice at the time, as the travellers knew, they were significantly behind Israel at the time which already had educational institutions and a rich culture.

    Muhammed copied Judaism and tweaked it a little to hand over supremacy from Jews to the complexed desert dwelling camel herding Arabs at the time. 

    A winning formula for a disparate nation lacking direction and a strong leader.

    My Book     news002       
    My Videos  pccoffee
    Contact  tacklehug

    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #88 - May 27, 2010, 08:39 PM


    Ateapotist,

    There is no underlying fallacy in my logic. The claim made by Eliphaz was that the quran is in Arabic and, therefore, cannot be considered a message for mankind. The obvious problem with this stance is that the message of Islam can be conveyed without understanding the Arabic language. The core fundamentals of the faith - belief in one god, submission to his will etc can be expressed in French, Italian, English, urdu or any combination of the above. The fact that the majority of Muslims in the world today do not speak Arabic, yet still accept its message is at least partial proof of this.  

    Islame,

    It certainly is very easy to assert that muhammad (saw) merely rebranded judaism and made it acceptable for Arab consumption. A closer inspection of the prophet's life, however, will reveal that numerous individuals accused him of much the same thing! I would argue that those adversaries of the prophet were probably best placed to find his elusive teacher and put to bed, once and for all, the claim that the prophet had learned his message from Jibreel. They were unable to do so.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #89 - May 27, 2010, 09:04 PM

    Hassan1,
    I quoted the relevant part of your post but you still misunderstood me. idiot2
    This is what I quoted you writing:
    Religion for all times and all places: Despite being in Arabic, Islam has spread to all corners of the world. It is not neccesary to speak Arabic in order to understand its message, as is evidenced by the growing number of western converts as well as the renewed interest in Islam from non-arabic speaking Muslims.

    The fallacy in your logic I was pointing out (after being corrected by Angel54) was:
    #5. Argumentum ad populum - Fallacy that something is correct based on the amount of people who believe it.
    Look how many people believe in Jesus, They can't all be wrong.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
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