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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1470 - October 21, 2014, 11:09 AM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 21, 2014, 09:03 AM
    Yes.

     Hmm....   Destiny of an agnostic Muslim?    ........confusion..confusion....... confusion in faith heads..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1471 - October 21, 2014, 11:17 AM
    Wasn't expecting an ummah thread. Grin
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1472 - October 21, 2014, 11:49 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2014, 11:17 AM
    Wasn't expecting an ummah thread. Grin


    yeez  loves every color, swims in every pond and fishes in every pond........... lol.........

    Well I am typing in to the forum and looking at two naked women..

    1). This one

    2). And this one

    I am facinated by the 2nd one QSE., I want you to look at it and think about it...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1473 - October 21, 2014, 08:23 PM
    I can't wait to see the finished translation. Abu Ali you are such a star for doing this!  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1474 - October 21, 2014, 11:30 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 21, 2014, 11:09 PM
    In conclusion, when the Qur'an speaks of the seal on the heart and hearing and veil over the eyes, it has nothing to do with the question of free-will & predestination; just as similar to when it applies the most ugly of accusations to opponents and describes them using adjectives which the best that can be said about them is that they are far from being reveal a lack of objectivity and also a vengeful & emotional reaction to criticism that has hit a nerve, which that I would have thought the Qur'an should would be above in terms of using resorting to such language to describe opponents.

    But all that is just a secondary and an unintended outcome. What was intended was to turn attention away from the merits of the opponents arguments and the strength of their opposition in comparison to the stance of the Qur'an which was less than expected (as the "speech go God") in an attempt to surround and contain these stubborn opponents before their danger spreads. This was in order to create a smokescreen around them so they can't see and they can't be seen by others. The most important thing is to shut them up in whatever way possible. For the wood is still green and the plant is still fresh and any damage could make it wilt and die. For most fires are started from small sparks!!


    Up to you whether you use these corrections here as may not be a good translation of the original. Thought some of the sentences needed splitting up and adjusting to be more clear as to the message of the text.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1475 - October 22, 2014, 01:40 PM
    Thank you Lily that is awesome.  Afro

    I'm out atm but will make the changes when I get back.

    I am translating as I read so it will sometimes come out a little clumsy. I am hoping to go over the whole thing once finished but any help is gratefully accepted.  Kiss
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1476 - October 22, 2014, 01:56 PM
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on October 21, 2014, 08:23 PM
    I can't wait to see the finished translation. Abu Ali you are such a star for doing this!  Afro


    La shukr ala wajib (no thanks for what is necessary)

    I'm really enjoying it.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1477 - October 22, 2014, 02:01 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 22, 2014, 01:40 PM
    Thank you Lily that is awesome.  Afro

    I'm out atm but will make the changes when I get back.

    I am translating as I read so it will sometimes come out a little clumsy. I am hoping to go over the whole thing once finished but any help is gratefully accepted.  Kiss


    No problem, was just reading that bit and was thinking, where is the punctuation?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1478 - October 22, 2014, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 22, 2014, 02:01 PM
    No problem, was just reading that bit and was thinking, where is the punctuation?


    I'll also add your suggestions along side my current compilation of Abu Ali's work. Very useful.

    For those who want to keep tabs on the progress, I've been marking what parts are done, and what parts aren't over here with fancy percentages!:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aL_G1aVg0dZTGejLEp-qkyg_y2ToGihQhlJorr-iwGs/edit?pli=1#gid=0

    Over here, you can see all the translation snippets being compiled:
    https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9kxpFIEZa-edTBGT2ZILUd1aGc&usp=sharing&tid=0B9kxpFIEZa-eR0NveE1IY28xVlU

    I'm working on cleaning them up and formatting them on my free time. If anyone wants to start proof-reading and marking suggestions (you can put comments on the side of the documents), or even edits, send me a PM with your Google account and I'll hook you up.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1479 - October 22, 2014, 06:08 PM
    Looks great - thanks for doing this  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1480 - October 22, 2014, 06:15 PM
    Lily, I just made the changes you suggested - thanks  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1481 - October 22, 2014, 07:53 PM
    I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has an opinion on the note I added to the passage I just translated - and if they either agree or have another opinion:

    *I think wolves and pigs are metaphors for the evil people in the world and so he's saying; if we were indeed created like God then the world would be a good and holy place, (assuming God is good and holy,) rather than a place where tyranny and oppression abound and the greedy minority take advantage of the deprived majority.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1482 - October 22, 2014, 08:02 PM
    This is the first paragraph in Arabic for those interested:

       كلُّ ما خطر ببالك فاللّه بخلاف ذلك. ليس صحيحاً أنّ اللَّه خلق آدم على صورته ومثاله كما تقول التوراة(10)، وإلاّ لما كان ذئباً يمشي على الأرض، أو على الأقلّ خنزيراً يستمرئُ الدنس والرِّجس، بل لكان ملاكاً يحلِّق في السماء ويتبوّأ من الجنَّة حيث يشاء، بل الأحرى أن نقول إنّ الإنسان هو الذي خلق اللَّه على صورته ومثاله، فأضفى عليه منذ مبدإ الخلق من الصفات والأفعال ما لا يجوز وصفُه به بحال من الأحوال، بل يجب تنزيهُه عنه تنزيهاً مطلقاً. لذلك ليس اللَّه مسلِماً ولا مسيحيّاً ولا يهوديّاً، هذه الأديان أديانُنا، إنّها هي أيضاً من صنعنا، وهي مخلوقة على قدِّنا، ولا يعترف اللَّه بأيٍّ منها.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1483 - October 22, 2014, 08:10 PM
    I think that interpretation of his words makes total sense. Is it not actually possible to read it as, “If not, (man) would not be a wolf walking on the earth, or at the very least, a pig…”?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1484 - October 22, 2014, 08:20 PM
    Thanks, yes, that works too. Maybe I should put that and remove my note?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1485 - October 22, 2014, 08:23 PM
    Yeah. I’m pretty sure the idea was that if we were made in god’s image, we wouldn’t behave like wolves and pigs, but would instead be like angels. I think you are safe with interpreting it metaphorically. That seems to be his intention. 
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1486 - October 22, 2014, 08:31 PM
    Done - thanks HM - that looks better. (No need for unnecessary notes.)
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1487 - October 22, 2014, 08:32 PM
    As I read it again, I think having that entire piece as referring to man makes the most sense.

    “For if he was then he would not be a wolf walking on the earth, or at the least, a pig delighting in dirt and filth. Instead he would be an angel hovering in the sky and taking his place in paradise wherever he wishes.”

    And Allah knows best.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1488 - October 22, 2014, 08:32 PM
    btw I like your new avatar  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1489 - October 22, 2014, 08:33 PM
    Thanks  Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1490 - October 22, 2014, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 22, 2014, 08:32 PM
    As I read it again, I think having that entire piece as referring to man makes the most sense.

    “For if he was then he would not be a wolf walking on the earth, or at the least, a pig delighting in dirt and filth. Instead he would be an angel hovering in the sky and taking his place in paradise wherever he wishes.”

    And Allah knows best.



    Allah indeed knows best and he told me that is perfect!

    Done! Thanks  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1491 - October 22, 2014, 08:38 PM
     Cheesy
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1492 - October 22, 2014, 09:40 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 22, 2014, 07:53 PM
    I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has an opinion on the note I added to the passage I just translated - and if they either agree or have another opinion:

    *I think wolves and pigs are metaphors for the evil people in the world and so he's saying; if we were indeed created like God then the world would be a good and holy place, (assuming God is good and holy,) rather than a place where tyranny and oppression abound and the greedy minority take advantage of the deprived majority.


    good stuff, is that comma after good and holy in the brackets in the right place?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1493 - October 22, 2014, 10:09 PM
    I deleted that note. But thanks anyway  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1494 - October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
    Just a status update for everyone on the progress on this project:

    In terms of the translation itself, here are the parts that are remaining:
    - Book Introduction (8 pages)
    - Chapter 1 (29 pages)
    - Chapter 3 (28 pages)
    - Chapter 5 - Section 10 (9 Pages) - Abu Ali in working on finishing this section right now.
    - Book Conclusion (5 pages)

    Since all Abu Ali's work has been copied into Google Drive, I'm just working putting the footnotes in the right places. This is mostly done for Chapter 5 already. For Chapter 4, most of the text comes from the .tex file that Aziz created and it will take a bit longer to cleanup. In addition, I have to make sure that Arabic text in that section is properly organized and aligned just like in the original Arabic version. Chapter 2 is copied, cleaned-up and pretty much formatted.

    Like mentioned before, you can keep track of the work progress in the spreadsheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aL_G1aVg0dZTGejLEp-qkyg_y2ToGihQhlJorr-iwGs/edit?pli=1#gid=0

    Also, you can view the documents themselves by clicking the link in the column "File Number" beside the chapter name.

    Once Abu Ali is done, I'm not sure how we are going to proceed, we'll probably have to do the following:
    - Ensure that all parts have been translated by comparing against the original Arabic document.
    - Let Abu Ali review his work and ensure that it is to his liking.
    - Get others to proofread the document.
    - Format the document and ensure that matches the Arabic version in layout.
    - Generate PDF files out of the documents and merge them.
    - PUBLISH!

    There are a few things that we should discuss also:
    - Should we also re-create the Arabic version and have a clear and readable PDF version. (We have the .doc file, so we just need to copy, paste, and adjust the fonts, etc)?
    - I recall that Abu Ali wanted to add a preface of his own or something. Do you still want to do this?
    - We could also add a section about the who the author might be, and also the reactions of some the Muslims in the Appendix. (There was one in Arabic that was long, claiming conspiracy and what not by a Muslim scholar. ?Ibrahim Awad?)?
    - Finally, Chapter 4 especially relies on the Arabic text of the Quran, and only the English is provided. I was thinking of putting the Quranic verse in Arabic alongside the English, what do you think? Same for some of the poetry. What do you think?

    That's all for now!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1495 - October 24, 2014, 09:15 AM
    Quote from: doubter_seeker9 on October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM

    - Ensure that all parts have been translated by comparing against the original Arabic document.
    - Let Abu Ali review his work and ensure that it is to his liking.
    - Get others to proofread the document.
    - Format the document and ensure that matches the Arabic version in layout.
    - Generate PDF files out of the documents and merge them.
    - PUBLISH!


    That's sounds good to me  Afro

    Quote from: doubter_seeker9 on October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
    - Should we also re-create the Arabic version and have a clear and readable PDF version. (We have the .doc file, so we just need to copy, paste, and adjust the fonts, etc)?


    Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I think we should.

    Quote from: doubter_seeker9 on October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
    - I recall that Abu Ali wanted to add a preface of his own or something. Do you still want to do this?


    Yep... I will get round to it once the translation is finished.

    Quote from: doubter_seeker9 on October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
    - We could also add a section about the who the author might be, and also the reactions of some the Muslims in the Appendix. (There was one in Arabic that was long, claiming conspiracy and what not by a Muslim scholar. ?Ibrahim Awad?)?


    Yes, why not  Afro

    Quote from: doubter_seeker9 on October 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
    - Finally, Chapter 4 especially relies on the Arabic text of the Quran, and only the English is provided. I was thinking of putting the Quranic verse in Arabic alongside the English, what do you think? Same for some of the poetry. What do you think?


    Again, I think that's a very good idea!

    Great work - clearly Allah guided you to us -  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1496 - October 28, 2014, 06:47 PM
    Phew! <wipes brow> finally got to the end of the book - time for a cuppa tea  grin12

    (Yes I know there's a couple more chapters at the beginning to do)
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1497 - October 28, 2014, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 28, 2014, 06:47 PM
    Phew! <wipes brow> finally got to the end of the book - time for a cuppa tea  grin12

    Congratulations! You've done an amazing job. Your translation rate is just crazy, and the quality is really good too! Deserve more than just a cup of tea

    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 28, 2014, 06:47 PM
    (Yes I know there's a couple more chapters at the beginning to do)


    But at least they're much shorter and probably don't involve having to reference long scholarly texts. [Chap 1: 29 pages, Chap 3: 28 pages, Intro: 8 pages].

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1498 - October 28, 2014, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on October 28, 2014, 06:47 PM
    Phew! <wipes brow> finally got to the end of the book - time for a cuppa tea  grin12

    (Yes I know there's a couple more chapters at the beginning to do)


    Good going Mr. Ali!

    Honorary forum dad!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1499 - October 28, 2014, 07:46 PM
    Tamma bi fadhlillah.  cheers
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